April 17, 1998

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The Giver   by Lois Lowry   Buy this book

On April 17, 1998, a group of teachers convened in the Teachers.Net Conference Room to discuss the Newbery award winning book "The Giver" by Lois Lowry. Their discussions are recorded here below....

Mayra - Yolanda, What grade do you think this book aims to? What's the youngest?

Yolanda - Mayra - according to everything I've read about it. It's geared toward the 6th to 10th grades.

Carole - First impression? Hmm this was a couldn't put down book Initially I had no knowledge of what it was about or anything, but once I started reading... lookout! I spent most of a Saturday reading it

Mayra - When I began reading it, I thought it was about the Amish people. But then things started to change...

Carole - This was a book that we read in our *teachers as readers* group at school

Yolanda - Funny you should bring up the Amish. I read somewhere that socially it could fall into groups like the Amish or Native Americans even Hasidic Jews because of how different they are in their ways.

Mayra - The name Jonas, the way everyone was so polite, those were the things that made me think of the connection

Yolanda - Does anyone know what the word Jonas means?

Carole - We dont really have Amish around here. So that was not a connection I made but now that you point it out I can see where you are coming from 

Mayra - I'd like to know

Yolanda - I just looked it up in a baby name book. It means dove taken from the name Jonah.

Peachy - So, can someone give a brief synopsis?

Yolanda - Would anyone like to try and give a brief summary?

Mayra - The "dove" could be tied in somehow.

Yolanda - I think the dove would tie in to mean that he flew away from the commuinty to a new place.

Mayra - You've got it!

Carole - Hmmm brief summary... that's a tough one... I would say that it is a book about choices : )

Yolanda - Or perhaps the dove being white could stand for his innocence, how pure the whole town is.

Mayra - It's also about how things are not really the way they look.

Yolanda - I think Jonas was the only one who made a choice that we knew about. Everyone else seemed to go with what they were taught and never questioned anything.

Mayra - Yolanda, you bring something interesting. Was the town really pure?

Carole - Peachy this is a book about a child who lives in a community where there really are no choices, things are all decided for him/you as you grow up, when the kids are 12 they are given a *job* Jonas.. the main character is given the job called the *giver*

Yolanda - Well they didn't lie unless it was in their rules. The kids didn't really do anything bad and if they did they always apologized.

Carole - Right I guess what I meant to say was the book is about choices or lack there of them.. one thing I would point out to a class if I ever used this would be that they do have choice, etc

Mayra - Jonas was actually given the job of receiver.

Yolanda - Jonas is The Reciever of Memory. If he would have stayed in the commuinty, he would have become the giver.

Carole - Sorry yes you are right.. the Reciever...to grow to be the giver

Carole - Obviously I read this a long time ago : )

NancyTX - Feelings are mandatorily discussed every night at dinner. Questions were forbidden, because they might be rude. The goal was for everyone to be comfortable; memories make us uncomfortable, so they are not collectively. The Giver carries that big job. Therefore, he is the only one with pain...and wisdom.

Yolanda - This job was the best job but it did entail pain. Why would anyone want to give pain to a 12 year old to have for the rest of his life?

Yolanda - Nancy - you're one step ahead of me.

Mayra - Nancy, do you think sixth graders are able to understand that? As I read the book I constantly thought it was for older kids.

NancyTX - This is the first year I taught it (10th Gr) and then as a choice among 6 utopian novels. I did it, because it had been yanked from our middle school

Carole - I personally would not tackle this with kids younger then grade 7, unless the children were very strong and well trained readers ( maybe in grade 6 in a literature circle?)

Carole - Yanked?

Yolanda - I personally would not read this to sixth graders. I'm not even sure about high school. There is the one part in chapter 4 where Jonas gives an elder a bath and they discuss her nakedness. I would not feel comfortable reading that to 6 graders.

Mayra - How did the tenth graders react to it? What were their comments?

NancyTX - I will get a lot of flack on this, but I can't see it for kids that young. However, my teachers love it, say it's great for talking about choosing your own destiny, etc.

Carole - I have a question.. did this book remind you of 1984 at all? That was one of my first thoughts

Yolanda - I haven't read 1984.

Mayra - Yes, and also Brave New World. I guess it's in the same genre.

NancyTX - Yes, yanked. Some parent got his/her britches in a wad about "releasing" the baby and the "stirrings". On the hs level, we hit it head on.

Yolanda - This book is great for discusiing Family and Relationships, Diversity, Social Issues and even a good vocabulary lesson.

Yolanda - I think the part of the release of the twin was cruel but I kind of thought that was what was happening.

Carole - Wow! It scares me that parents can censor what we teach in our classrooms.. almost sounds like what happened in the book...

NancyTX - 1984 was one of the six choices; let's see, Wrinkle in Time, Lord of the Flies, Book of the Dun Cow, and Anthem - quite a spread of reading levels!

Yolanda - I think parents become afraid to discuss certain issues of the book with their children and therefore ban them.

Mayra - Although it was a scary scene, the release of the twin seemed to be perfectly suited to the way the plot was going.

NancyTX - I followed the Utopian Chat Groups up with a class study of Brave New World! Orgy-porgy!

Carole - Yolanda I think you are correct in that observation, but I suppose it is also those parents that are not open to having their children make choices and open mindedness

Mayra - What I mean is that it was a good shocker, not just to Jonas, but to the kids that might be reading it.

Yolanda - Perhaps these parents make choices for their own kids.

NancyTX - Yolanda, I do have to defend my literature to parents. I had one mother ask me if I wasn't afeert these kids wuz going to go off and join some cult!

Yolanda - Are you serious? That's terrible.

Carole - Making choices for your own kids is one thing, but making choices for *societies* kids is another. In fact I would say that comes right back to this book where few people made all the choices

Mayra - Nancy, did you tell the parents that the story might actually scare kids away from cults?

Yolanda - What did you guys think about when you read the part about Jonas seeing the apple he was throwing to his friend changing? I kind of thought that he was already different if he was making this kind of observation.

NancyTX - Mayra - I told her that my plan was not to see how much smut I could sling at the students, until I finally undermined their faith. I added that as a Christian, I have to come in the back door and say, "What do you think about this? I feel angry. Should we feel angry? Let's feel angry!"

Mayra - I thought it was a hint that he was an artist. You know how they see colors, the light differently...

Yolanda - They didn't make any choices. They had rules in this book like crazy.

NancyTX - OK, here's where my answers run out. What the heck happened on that dang sled???

Mayra - Nancy, when?

Yolanda - Here is a funny rule: All females under nine need to make sure
they wear their hair ribbons neatly and tied at all times.

Carole - But someone initially had to make all of the choices and the rules for this society?

Yolanda - Carole - Someone did but who? and when?

NancyTX - Mayra - at the end when he and Gabe were downhilling into the Christmas cabin.

Mayra - I guess Ms. Lawry left that up to the reader. You can interpret that any way you want.

Carole - Yolanda.. that is a very interesting question.. along with why?

NancyTX - Doh!

Yolanda - You will get hooked and ask yourself tons of questions.

NancyTX - It really matters, because whether he lives or dies makes hers a message of hope or despair. Arrrrgh!

Mayra - I read somewhere that kids didn't like the fact that Ms. Lawry didn't really give an ending. I think she couldn't end it any other way. There would have been too many problems to solve.

Yolanda - Why are all the children referred to as numbers. When you get a year older something else happens. I kind of liked that.

Mayra - For example, how did he adjust to a different society.

NancyTX - Mayra - There's where I have a literary problem with the book. On a plotline, you build the conflicts, climax, then resolve all the conflicts. Shakespeare just killed everybody.

Yolanda - Ms. Lowry says that she left it open-ended because she wanted us to come up with our own ending. Plus she said she will not be writing a sequel to it.

Mayra - I guess if I was covering the book in class, I would ask the kids to come up with possible endings. maybe add the possible conflicts and resolutions.

Yolanda - It would make for a great writing excercise. Think about the many different endings.

Carole - Oh I want a sequel to it : ) I really did ..I want to know how Jonas adjusted, etc

NancyTX - Where have you all found Ms. Lowry's comments? Everything I have found is written by students at schools that have nice computer labs. Guess there's a Novel Unit to buy somewhere.

Tony B/CA - That is interesting to me - Yolanda, what kinds of questions do you ask yourself after reading the book? What would persuade teachers to use this book? What grades would you suggest take it on?

Bob Reap - So Yolanda, are you an English teacher and did you assign this book to your kids?

Mayra - I teach ninth and tenth graders. I think that's a good group to discuss the book.

Carole - Tony I think the opportunities to really delve into some of the concepts and thoughts in the book would persuade me to use it in a classroom.. however I wouldnt teach kids that old ;)

Yolanda - Tony - I asked myself so many questions while reading the book that I don't even know where I could begin with that. I found a website that has a lot of different uses for this book. For example, you can use it for science - The part where he sees the changing of the apple while throwing it (gravity).

Bob Reap - Are there lesson plans available for this book?

NancyTX - I met a Sr. AP English teacher in Dallas who assigns it.

Tony B/CA - Thank you, Mayra. So senior high school is probably the age.

Yolanda - I teach second grade. I read this book because my reading grad class was going to hear Lois Lowry speak and I figured I should read one of her books before I went. Unfortunately I had to leave before she spoke about this book. I was really upset but I did get the book signed.

Tony B/CA - And what themes might you say this book elicits for class discussion?

NancyTX - Yolanda, what concepts do you emphasize with 2nd graders?

Yolanda - I haven't found or seen any lesson plans on this book but since it did win an award I'm sure one will be made soon. HHHMM!

Mayra - True, Tony. I wouldn't get too much into the ending, but spend a lot of time on the society where Jonas lived.

Yolanda - With this book? NONE I would never read this book to my little angels.

Carole - Tony I think making choices about life would be the biggest one, freedoms

Tony B/CA - thank you Mayra and Carole. Great!

Mayra - Some themes that could be discussed are things like equality: what would be the price if everything had to be the same for everyone. Things like that.

NancyTX - Yolanda - Oh! I misunderstood! Whew!

Tony B/CA - come again, Yolanda..

Yolanda - Tony - I also think that a big discussion could go on with DIVERSITY. How should one respect a group that is so much differnt than us. Within our own cultures we do many things that are different, it does not mean they are wrong.

Tony B/CA - ahh...

Tony B/CA - very good point Yolanda.

Bob Reap - found one lesson:
http://www.mgprogeny.com/samples/sample315.html

Yolanda - Thank you tony.

NancyTX - Tony - one I hit hard with the teenagers is wisdom, that it often comes from processing painful memories. A pretty mature take on a book that's rated for Gr.6-8

Bob Reap - here's another resource: http://www.d91.k12.id.us/www/eagle/Depart/MediaCen/giver.htm

Mayra - Bob, could you post that on the chatboard. I can't bookmark it now, for fear of getting offline.

Tony B/CA - Equality, diversity, freedom, choices, decision-making, leadership, culture, wisdom.. Wow! What potential for springboarding discussions... Thanks!

Yolanda - Thanks Bob, I bookmarked it.

Bob Reap - another lesson plan (these are for the log) http://www.ofps.dpi.state.nc.us/OFPS/tc/TNT/mlp0043.htm

Yolanda - Tony - what grade do you teach?

Tony B/CA - I haven't read the book, but it sounds extremely interesting. Is this book good for the soul-searching teacher on the go?

Yolanda - I definitely reccomend it!!!

Tony B/CA - Most recently, grades 5/6 - Now I work with teachers exclusively.

Mayra - What did you guys think about the part when they describe releasing the older folks. It made me think of Dr. Kavorkian. (After I found out what happened to them)

Yolanda - Does anyone remember any of the Family Units having pets?

NancyTX - Tony - yes, much easier than Pride and Prejudice.

Carole - Tony I would suggest it.. it is an easy read and very thought provking

Tony B/CA - NancyTX, is that the book, or character traits ;)

NancyTX - Mayra - It reminded me of the Galloping Senility Ward in Brave New World (TV movie version this Sun. night NBC)

Yolanda - It didn't mention if the Elders were sick did it? Or did it just say they were released. They must have been killed because they were taking up space or losing their minds.

Carole - Were they just old at the center? or was there were they went when they were sick as well?

Mayra - Lawry never describes the actual releasing of the elders. We get to infer the same thing happened as in the releasing of the twin.

Tony B/CA - Thanks for the recommendations. I'll have a look to see if I can buy it through the Teachers.Net Catalog Center - where we can ALL purchase our books for school ONLINE (and support T.Net) </<shameless plug>>

Yolanda - Didn't everyone who was released go ELSEWHERE?

Mayra - I would think that when the people weren't able to do their job they were sent to the elder's place.

Yolanda - That's a good idea Tony except we would have to get discounts being regulars here and all.

Mayra - Yolanda, I hate to dissapoint you, but I think they got the ax.

Carole - DO you think anyone ever died there naturally?

Yolanda - But when they were released they went elsewhere, right? Just like the twin? Did it mention why the twin was released? I can't remmeber.

Mayra - You know, like the Giver's daughter.

Tony B/CA - You mean like the 20% discount for teachers that we have going? ;) (nice lead-in)

Carole - I didnt think they wanted twins.. it would be too confusing to have more then one person looking the same I think

NancyTX - Here's another creative project I do: each stu produces a brochure advertising his/her personal utopia. They have to describe the govt, society, jobs, educ., art, entertainment, a flag, etc. I think Fabio was the president of one girl's paradise!

Yolanda - Oh I'm sorry Mayra, I know they got the ax but the twin and the elders were "sent" to this place called Elsewhere. Right?

Mayra - The twin was released because they couldn't "afford" to have two. So the one with the least weight had to go.

Yolanda - I love that idea Nancy: )

NancyTX - Yolanda - I think "elsewhere" was really nowhere, just a euphemism for the Great Beyond, like passing "over"

Tony B/CA - Great idea NancyTX! How do you display the work?

Mayra - Nancy, great idea. Yolanda, the place called Elsewhere would be something like Heaven.

Yolanda - I thought maybe elsewhere was like a cemetery but not in the same community. Where did they put these bodies anyway?

NancyTX - I cover the walls with them, like a travel bureau. We have style shows, vocab game books, posters, quite a bit to choose from.

Mayra - I really liked the cover of the book. I liked how the two views - the black & white and the color scene tied in with the story.

Yolanda - I never really thought of that Mayra.

Carole - I think they must have incinerated the bodies? after they injected them?

Tony B/CA - Very cool Nancy!

NancyTX - What do you all think about Lowry's choice that a female couldn't handle it (painful memories) but a little boy could?

NancyTX - Carole - I think they were toast. Didn't they send the body down a chute?

Yolanda - My husband is watching something on TV about weather. What do you think of this place not having any real kind of weather? It was controlled. There was no snow. Was there sunshine? I don't think there was.

Mayra - I never thought about the female/male thing. I thought he made it because she set the way for him to do it.

Tony B/CA - The cover is very interesting indeed. What was the illustrator trying to convey?

NancyTX - Maybe a boy could handle it better because males are generally more task-oriented. I don't know. If a man had written it, I would have been offended.

Yolanda - Oh But there was a female that was chosen just she was brave enough to take all the pain. But then again neither was Jonas, he wanted to give it to everyone else.

Carole - Nancy I vaguelly remember them putting them in a drawer or sending down the chute as well.. but I would think that to keep things secret they would have to cremate them otherwise they would have graveyard workers and people would question?

Yolanda - Oh Yeah there was something about a chute so they must have been burned.

Mayra - Tony, when you read the book you'll understand. I don't mean to be mean, it's a matter of how the people never "saw" colors. They saw everything in black and white. Only Jonas and the Giver were able to see them. Jonas began seeing them with the apple incident.

Tony B/CA - I think I see snow and sunshine, in addition to trees - it appears to be the break of dawn. But this is largely enveloped in the portrait of "oldness", age. Is there an implicit struggle? Who'd be winning (visually)? Lastly, am I going too far out the

Yolanda - Tony are you referring to the cover?

Yolanda - Mayra - did Jonas see color in the apple or just how it changed? How did he see it change?

NancyTX - OK, Cover-Decoders: Consider, is that a sunrise (birth) or a sunset (death)?

Tony B/CA - Oh, yes, Mayra - I am sure I will. Sometimes, I like to collect this type of sensory information before I read a book anyway. I am really just interested in all of your insights...

Mayra - In the cover we see the Giver how the people see him. He is looking at the dawn and the trees and we see them the way he sees them. Does this make sense?

Yolanda - That makes a lot of sense Mayra.

Mayra - in other words, the people see him in black and white.

NancyTX - Tony - It's sort of a "what is your brain trained to receive and translate?" thing. These folks had no MEMORY of color. They could see a red rose, and "rose" would register; "red" would not. That's my understanding.

Tony B/CA - Ahh... interesting

Yolanda - Did these family units have pets?

Carole - I must admit I have never even looked a the cover before ( well certainly not in the same way you all did) I am definately of right brain and you are forcing me to really think about things : ) This is good for me

Mayra - Yolanda - I think when he saw the apple he began to notice color. That's why I thought he was going to be an artist.

Yolanda - I know they had comfort objects that were given names.

NancyTX - Yo - I have no memory of pets. :-)

Tony B/CA - Right on Nancy TX - birth or death.. interesting suggestion. Of course, I would read the book before offering a hypothesis ;)

Mayra - No pets. There were no animals in that society.

Yolanda - Carole that's what all this is for. I'm so glad you're thinking harder.

Mayra - The fact that there were no animals was one of the first hints to me that something was very wrong here.

NancyTX - When I used to paint, before I had a million papers to grade, I learned that a sunrise has pink in it, but a sunset has orange in it. I doubt that the cover-makers were being that deep, though!

Tony B/CA - I have to run, sunset in Santa Monica, and the local mountains beckon my dog and I to run... Thank you very much Yolanda & Company - it was a pleasure to learn from you all this evening. Best wishes.

Yolanda - You are very welcome. I hope to see you next time too. May 8th. Not sure on the book yet.

Mayra - Carole - a cover is a great thing to get kids interested in what might happen. At least that's what I use it for.

NancyTX - oops. Once more... Here's another neuron-tweaker. Don't you see Gabriel as a Christ figure?

Yolanda - What would make you think that Nancy?

Carole - Mayra.. true.. I guess I do use the cover within my classrooms, but since I teach division one, this is not a book I read for that purpose?

Mayra - He sure symbolizes hope.

Tony B/CA - Thank you, I will be here! This was super. I'll even consider reading the book next time ;) Off --->

Mayra - Good night, Tony.

Yolanda - What did you think about the family sharing their feelings and dreams over breakfast or dinner? That was very strange. And remember they can't lie.

Carole - But interesting, that they couldn't lie, but Jonas did not always tell the truth? How many others in the society did the same thing?

NancyTX - Gabe was not welcomed by his own. (Neither were the ideas of Jonas). Jonas gives him warmth by giving him his memories of warmth, losing his own in the process. I think Jonas died to give life to Gabe and hope to the people he was being delivered to. Why else a Christmas tree? Why not a turkey?

Mayra - If I was making a chart of the Good things and the Bad things about that society, I would put the sharing sessions in the Good. I kind of liked the idea.

Yolanda - Oh Nancy I love your thinking!

Mayra - Great angle Nancy. I didn't think of that!

Yolanda - Christmas also showed love within the family. The grandparents were with the family and the family was biological.

NancyTX - Now that I see that in print, maybe Jonas was more of a Christ figure than Gabe was. Remember, Gabriel was the name of the angel announcing the bringer of hope.

Yolanda - They could only lie if they were told so in their rules. We don't know if that applied to everyone and no one else knew about it.

Mayra - Tell me more!!!

Yolanda - That's what I would think. That Jonas would be more like Christ. He is after all the main character.

Carole - Yolanda you are correct.. thanks for reminding me of that..

NancyTX - Yolanda - I assumed that only the Giver/Receiver could lie, because they now knew things that could make people uncomfortable.

Yolanda - His father also lied.

Yolanda - Maybe everyone lied about everything they did but they weren't allowed to tell anyone.

Mayra - I agree with Nancy. His father didn't really lie. He acted according to the way he was "programmed"

Carole - Yolanda.. thats what I wondered.. only the giver and the rule makers would really know in the end

NancyTX - About these other communities ... were they the same, or could Jonas have escaped to a "normal" place where such things as Christmas were remembered?

Yolanda - Right but so was Jonas. He was not allowed to discuss his training with anyone. He couldn't or didn't have to talk about his dreams after he got the "job". So he did lie. We don't know what the rules were for everyone else so maybe they lied too. Not that they just tell them what was happening. But the father would not tell Jonas that he was going to kill Gabe because he didn't belong.

Yolanda - I believe the other communties were different. He did hear music and singing or so he thought.

Mayra - The other communities was something that I think wasn't well developed. For example, how close to Jonas' way were they?

Yolanda - They must have been close but not too close because he couldn't have gotten their so quickly. Plus he didn't have much if any food left so he wouldn't have survived that long.

Mayra - How different from our ways were these communities? How close to Jonas' way?

Yolanda - I don't think they were different at all. There were biological families, grandparents that were allowed to be with their family and there was celebration going on. Christmas. What better celebration than the birht of someone so great!

Mayra - I agree.

Yolanda - I don't know yet. I know it's on May 8th but I'm torn. There are so many good books out there to read and discuss. But I have to choose a different genre and grade level.

Yolanda - I hope to do this monthly. Feel free to e-mail me if you have suggestions for books. I've gotten a few but it hards to pick. I'll know by Monday. Look for a posting on the chatboard somewhere.

Mayra - Thanks, Yolanda. This was great. It reminded me of the old days when I would sit with friends, drink coffee, and talk about good literature.

Bob Reap - Looks like a wrap! How'd it go tonight, Yolanda?

Yolanda - This is the first time I actually discussed a good book with people. I loved it. Thank you very, very much.

Mayra - yolanda, maybe you can put a post and ask for book suggestions.

Yolanda - Bob - It went great. Thank you so much for all your help and postings. I'll also tell Kathleen. I'm sorry she missed it.

Bob Reap - Great, Yolanda, thanks for everything - we're looking forward to you coming back and doing this again. :o)