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Mary/PA - The topic - What Confidences Don't You Keep?
Mary/PA - Oh, I stated the topic wrong - it should be - Keeping Student Confidences
Addie/mo - mary, that is just the flip side of the topic. sometimes there are confidences that you cant keep. like things that you are mandated to report.
Kathleen - I wonder how much those mandated topics differ from state to state
canuk - addie, and when do you tell parents something the kid has confided, but you think they should know
Mary/PA - I know, Addie...and then there's the things that you don't tell the parents because you know the child will be beat ... know what I mean?
Addie/mo - true, mary
Addie/mo - canuk, i think that is a hard call. you have to examine your motivations for telling the parents and make sure that it is in the child's best interest.
Kathleen - I had that situation once, parent would beat a child if he got into trouble in school. i didn't know that until after the day i tried to keep the child after school and he (the child) punched me in the arm and ran to the bus. poor thing, he didn't want to be beaten at home
kdee/NC - In terms of parents, I actually had a mom beat her child for telling me that the child's stepfather died.
Addie/mo - kdee, that is hard to believe. what was the problem with the child saying that?
Kathleen - addie, what sorts of revelations (confidences shared by student) are you required to report?
kdee/NC - Addie, I really don't know. This same parent came to my classroom after a discipline concern call and slapped the child right in front of her classmates.
Beth Bruno - I've been sitting here at my computer for the past half hour writing an article about defensive parents.
Addie/mo - sounds like that mom has problems
Beth Bruno - bring me up to date on the chat you've already started
Kathleen - Beth, we only this minute began to discuss the topic, so you didn't miss anything
canuk - We had just touched on legal responsibilities to report
Beth Bruno - I just read about a parent slapping her child right in front of the class. whoa. what happened next?
canuk - And when it is in the best interest of a child to tell parents things about happenings in school, and when to keep it confidential
kdee/NC - I escorted parent and child out of the room and had the child go to the bathroom. I asked the parent to go to the counselor's office
Beth Bruno - I'd say that is a reportable incident. Would everyone agree?
canuk - I'd say report that to the administration - I don't know about child welfare
Addie/mo - i would think so. what did the counselor do?
Beth Bruno - We had a social worker in our building two days a week. She also made herself available on other days - to consult when there was a question about an incident.
Kathleen - But what confidences should we keep, which should we break?
kdee/NC - Oir counselor was also the assistant principal. Mom was having problems. In fact, all kids were taken out of the home shortly thereafter.
mary - I would agree but where I have taught before that would be consider minor
Kathleen - How much can we keep parents out of the loop with info about their children?
sukiRR - I had twokids in the same classroom who were raped, both little boys under 7 Mominformed us(classroom teachers) we informed the administration...they have yet to receive adequate couseloing
Beth Bruno - I relied heavily on her opinion and so did the building administrator. We didn't want to report parents; we wanted to help them. Sometimes the two are synonymous
Addie/mo - i think that family services would investigate here, but there would have to be other incidents for abuse to be substatiated
sukiRR - Sometimes parents count too much on us to help when we can't
Kathleen - Good point about both being synonymous
kdee/NC - sukiRR, I agree.
Mary/PA - Wow, Beth, we could sure use a social worker in our building! That's a great idea
Beth Bruno - The reports are important to establish a pattern (or absence of one).
kdee/NC - We share a social worker with another school.
Kathleen - Mary, you have no social worker?
sukiRR - We have one in our building,from a private agency
Kathleen - we share, too, but she is available
Beth Bruno - Parents who are reported may get angry, but the report often mobilizes them to take corrective action, too.
Addie/mo - well, if the child (thinking older) tells you something like they are using drugs, i think you would have to report it to the parents...or if the child is very depressed and threatens suicide. even if they told you not to tell anyone, it wouldnt be in the childs best interest to maintain those confidences
mary - not in the school district
sukiRR - he comes iin to ourSTAT (pre referral meetings0 and tries to drum up bussiness for his "clinic"
Addie/mo - we have a school based social worker in our district
canuk - We have access to a social worker, but only if we get refferals in by the end of September
Beth Bruno - The age of the child is a factor. Kids under 14 are considered minor minors - everything goes to the parents (just about).
sukiRR - No matter what the [problem...it could be straight academic..he wants the parents to bring childin for couseling
Beth Bruno - Between 14 and 18 is a gray area - for keeping or breaking confidences - gray area in the law, too.
Kathleen - suki, is that a case of passing the buck, or rubber stamp solution?
kdee/NC - We have many parents who blame the school when their child acts out. Almost always we find that the kid is reacting to something going on at home.
sukiRR - I think he's trying to make a buck
Beth Bruno - If a 15-year-old says he or she has experimented with marijuana, do you think that confidence should be broken?
sukiRR - No
Cloc - our social worker just drags and drags, it has almost become a joke
kdee/NC - What is the definition of "experimented"?
Kathleen - Beth, the parent in me says YES!
Addie/mo - we had a fourth grader at school who wasnt eating lunch. she takes some medication which typically suppresses the appetite, but what concerned me is that she begged the teacher not to tell her mom "the secret". when this was reported to me, i had the school nurse call home, since this was a medical/health concern. mom was grateful.
Addie/mo - if it were my kid, i would want to know
Beth Bruno - let's say has tried it three different times. once at school and the other two times on the weekend.
sukiRR - If he/she is confiding ,the result should not end upbeing punitive
Myra S. - The teacher in me says no..the parent says yes
Mary/PA - If that 15 year old told this to a teacher, isn't that some kind of test on his/her part? Or a call for help? Why else would a child tell a teacher something like that?
Kathleen - Yes, I believe the parent should be informed
Addie/mo - at school, it is breaking school rules and it is breaking the law in both settings. IMO, yes, if you know for a fact it happened how can you not report it
Myra S. - If it happened at school then yes, it should be reported.
kdee/NC - I would want to know as a parent. Just in case there are other things happening as well
sukiRR - I would talk tothe child to find out what is going on at home ...if its a plea forhelphelp can be given
Beth Bruno - teachers often get close enough to a student, that the student confides in them. and yes, this could be a call for help.
kdee/NC - Or just a means of getting attention
Beth Bruno - the question is, what's helpful here? maybe the teacher can counsel this student about the dangers and get the student thinking about it
Kathleen - As a parent, if my child got into drugs and I learned that a teacher knew about it earlier, I would not be happy
sukiRR - Are other things going wrong for the child..academics? attendence behavior?
Addie/mo - kdee, you mean that the child says it, but it didnt really happen?
Myra S. - Attention or call for help, it needs to be addressed
kdee/NC - Neither would I, Kathleen.
Addie/mo - kat, ITA 100 %
canuk - How are you placed legally if you don't report that to the law? are you then an accessory?
mary - I agree Kathleen
kdee/NC - Addie, yes. I've encountered some kids who do that.
Cloc - thanks, I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to how we can regain some confidence in our social worker. As far as I know all we do is fill out a blue form that comes from the school counselor and then is forwarded to him. The thing is that's the last we see of the "little blue form".
sukiRR - If its that serious,asa parent you WOuld know already oryou are not paying attention..in denial
Addie/mo - if the child really didnt do it, then i probably would not contact the parents. i would talk to them about the consequences of that type of behavior.
Beth Bruno - is it defensible for the teacher to insist that the student talk with parents first - before reporting it?
Kathleen - Cloc, you mean you get no response?
Addie/mo - beth, i could see it handled that way, as long as the teacher followed up to see what happened when it was discussed. by following up i mean with the student and the parents
Beth Bruno - in other words, give the student a chance tohandle it directly - maybe even practice how to say it - maybe the student is scared and needs advice before dealing with the problem.
Cloc - I hate to say it, but that's it exactly
sukiRR - Cloc follow up, send notes in writing ,then reminders to respond..if no answer then CC to principal/supervisor
Kathleen - When you say reporting it, do you mean reproting to parents or to authorities? I believe it should be reported to the parents
Myra S. - Yes, I think the parents should be notified first
kdee/NC - In all of our schools, we have a guidance counselor. I would have the student talk to the counselor before contacting the parents. Sometimes there's a history that only the counselors and administrators know...
Addie/mo - cloc, can you go to the person's office and say, "i was just checking on so and so. what have you found out?"
sukiRR - Craete a paper trail that forces action or demonstrates incompetence/indifference
sukiRR - good point kdee
Addie/mo - if a drug offense happened at school, i would think that authorities would have to be notified.
Beth Bruno - Cloc - definitely follow up with the school administrator - especially if you suspect that the reports are getting buried.
Kathleen - I'm really uncomfortable about leaving the parents out of the loop with things as serious as drug use
Cloc - he work's out of central office which is on the other side of the county, so it's not too easy, I like the idea of the paper trail...
Addie/mo - yes, and reporting it to the admin may help too
sukiRR - a drug offense is different fromachild confiding that hei s "experimenting"
Beth Bruno - I think it's true that if a student is suspected of having drugs on school grounds there would be cause for a search. - of backpack, locker, jacket, etc.
Kathleen - Social workers should be based in a school building,not central office.
sukiRR - It works cloc...we have the same problem
kdee/NC - I agree, Beth.
Addie/mo - true, but in the scenario we described he stated that he had used at school once and on the weekends twice
Cloc - Most of our reports that have "ignored" are like for truancy
Addie/mo - we have a district social worker so she is housed at the alternative school
Beth Bruno - I didn't really mean to bring the criminal case into this for now. rather wanted to explore a non-criminal disclosure in the 14-18 gray area.
mary - Is it legal to just notify the parents and not the school counsler
Addie/mo - beth, so if the student is confiding and says he used at school, does that not create a legal problem
kdee/NC - Beth, I'm at middle school level, ages 11-14. It seems that whole range is grey
Beth Bruno - Yes, it does. using a drug at school would be require a report, in my opinion. What about the weekend use?
Beth Bruno - Does the weekend use require a report to the parents do you think?
Kathleen - I think one needs to know what the law requires, but also report to parents, regardless
kdee/NC - If the weekend use occurred on school property, a report is required also.
sukiRR - use at school should be a report yes
Cloc - we will be opening a new primary school this year, we could work on a step by step plan so that there is no doubt as to pocedure and where he fits in, if we include it in our school improvement plan, he's got to watch out, right?
Beth Bruno - Is your opinion the same for a 17 year old?
Kathleen - Cloc, it would seem that would put him on notice that he must act
sukiRR - cloc you could clarify ..make explicit his role and responsibilities
Kathleen - for 17 year old, still yes
Addie/mo - i say yes on the 17 year old
kdee/NC - for the 17 year old, yes
Beth Bruno - When I ask these questions as a psychologist I sometimes have a different answer than when I ask them as a parent. I know that as a parent, I would want to know. As long as my child lived in my home as my dependent, I would want to know.
kdee/NC - Beth, I think all parents have a right to know.
canuk - Why is it different for the psychologist?
Addie/mo - i think, that even as a teacher or admin, i would feel that i had done my job more completely if i covered all the bases...if i knew the child was experiementing with drugs, tried to talk him out of it...maybe even think it worked. then later he gets into drugs deeper or has some kind of an accident or something. i would feel very guilty for not intervening with the parents sooner
Beth Bruno - It's different for a psychologist, because in some states the law protects the confidentiality of student disclosures if there is no criminal offense or no serious danger. For instance, I think a girl can request a pregnancy test at planned parenthood and the person at planned parenthood is not obliged to tell the parent.
Kathleen - I don't agree with that law allowing PP NOT to report to parent
Beth Bruno - As a parent, I would want to know. As a psychologist I would have to check out the law carefully - consult with the social worker and building principal - before immediately reporting to the parent.
Addie/mo - beth, i dont think we have the same protection in a public school, it would be important for us to refer kids with problems to the correct resources
Kathleen - perhaps call the parent in for the disclosure and provide support, counseling, but not withhold that info
Addie/mo - kat, i like that solution
Beth Bruno - That's where the psychologist, social worker, principal comes in, Addie. I certainly don't think a teacher should handle this alone!
kdee/NC - Kathleen, I agree.
Addie/mo - no, it takes a team approach.
canuk - a health professional is in a different role - the student is the only client. At Public school the range of stakeholders is much broader
kdee/NC - I think a teacher should request support on any issue like this.
Beth Bruno - Sometimes our laws don't make a whole lot of sense. No teacher should be in a position of taking over a parent's role in resolving a student's problem.
canuk - In loco parentis can be taken to extremes
Kathleen - We can't complain about parents not taking responsibility, then continue to undermine their responsibility by denying them access to info about their children
kdee/NC - Good point, Kathleen
Kathleen - not denying, but withholding
Beth Bruno - I'm relieved that everyone is in agreement on this. 15 and 16 year-olds try to act all grown up, but they are not.
Kathleen - I can remember thinking I was adult at 15
Addie/mo - i was too, but we were much older at 15 back then. LOL
canuk - But what about children in a dysfunctional family - like the ones we were talking about earlier who are likely to get beaten
Kathleen - canuk, I do agree that in those situations there has to be special handling, protection for the child
Addie/mo - canuk, if you know or suspect that, then you have to go with reporting to social services. you cant just try to withold the problems, because they wont go away
Beth Bruno - In the dysfunctional family case, the adults on the student-assistance-team need to build in steps to protect a child, if there is reason to believe that disclosure would be dangerous to that child,
Kathleen - agree addie
Kathleen - #1 must be the best interests of the child. in most cases that means informing parents. there are sometimes diff. circumstances
Beth Bruno - Sorry I lost track of the right date for tonight's chat. Thanks, everyone. I'll get it straight next time. Goodnight.
canuk - Good talk everyone, 'bye
Beth Bruno - I want to second Kathleen's statement. First and foremost, are the child's needs, the child's welfare.
Beth Bruno - goodnight, again
Kathleen - me too, thanks everyone, this has been helpful and interesting. Beth, thanks for taking a break from writing to be here. Beth Bruno, author of Wild Tulips http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970843003/teachersnet
