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Kathleen - The Topic is "Working With Underachievers" with Moderator Beth Bruno, school psychologist and author.
Beth Bruno - Starting out with a tough question. How do you differentiate between underachievers and kids who are depressed?
steff - beth that is a big question
Lady Bats - Underachiever it's more just a choice not to do whatever they need to do in school
steff - is it really a choice? sometimes it could be other things can't it?
teach4fun - students who have lack of confidence in school as opposed to students who have emotional problems which overwhelm them.
Beth Bruno - Why would a child choose to underachieve?
Lady Bats - because it's work
Kathleen - Perhaps a depressed child wouldn't do well at any time of day, but an underachiever might shine during activities that tap into his/her talents, resources, or take place in the right kind of environment.
Lady Bats - I have 4 or 5 boys in various classes that just do not care
Beth Bruno - Learning is exhilarating work.
Lady Bats - that's very frustrating
Kathleen - Choose to underachieve. Could be wanting to emulate peers, wanting to "fit in"
Mary K&1 - Why can't an underachiever be anyone who is not working up to their potential, for whatever the reason - depression can be one of those reasons, can't it?
Beth Bruno - It's crushing to meet a child who doesn't care.. and a huge challenge to us as teachers.
Lady Bats - not for everyone Beth
Beth Bruno - yes, depression can be one reason for underachievement.
Lady Bats - there were many times for me that learning was very painful work
Kidbiz - Would we consider children with learning disab underachievers....??
teach4fun - Isn't it more of a choice to be an achiever?
Mary K&1 - Why isn't lacking confidence an emotional problem?
Lady Bats - not because they have learning disabilities
Kidbiz - I think the child who doesn't care is one of the biggest challenges we face in teaching...
Lady Bats - if it's a choice to be an achiever - you also choose not to be
Beth Bruno - I guess we're all underachievers, at times.
teach4fun - I remember sitting next to "high level" achievers in school, and just not feeling equal to the task...
Mary K&1 - Do they really not care, or are they afraid to try because of a fear of failure?
Beth Bruno - It's the kids who are chronic underachievers that bring us together tonight.
Lady Bats - my kids know they won't fail if they try
teach4fun - Yes, Ms. Bruno, how much is underachieving fear of failure?
Beth Bruno - How do you find the interests and talents of the students who are so turned off?
Lady Bats - even with that - I get kids who won't try and don't care
Beth Bruno - Children who have experienced failure over and over - that's another cause of underachievement.
Lady Bats - spec. ed. kids not identified
Beth Bruno - So far we've noted depression, fear of failure as causes. What are some others?
Kathleen - I wonder how young underachieving can begin?
Lady Bats - So Beth... what do we do?
Kathleen - Lack of resources, such as study skills, communication skills
Beth Bruno - Do you think anger is a cause?
Lady Bats - education not being supported at home
steff - How about kids who are bright and can't articulate themselves verbally?
teach4fun - How about the interaction between the teacher as the motivator, and the student, personality wise
Kathleen - I suppose any emotion can result in underachieving, even fatigue.
marg - I think kids need to learn the strategies to study successfully
Mary K&1 - I was an underachiever for most of my elem. years - at least that's what I was told - it wasn't that I didn't try - it was a feeling of being inadequate and inferior - it held me back - I think to it was my young age - I was a year or more younger than my classmates
Lady Bats - it has to be fatigue - over a period of time
teach4fun - Some kids "wake up" for some teachers and classes
teach4fun - Hey, Mary K, so was I.....
steff - My daughter is considered an underachiever---
Mary K&1 - I think that there are many reasons for under achieving - not until a person starts to believe in themselves can they start to pull out of it
Lady Bats - some teachers do tend to inspire kids more than others
Beth Bruno - I think we're getting a larger picture - of a child who may get little positive support at home, has inadequate skills, often fails and has low self-esteem
teach4fun - yes, anger which the student might not understand himself
Kathleen - How important is it to understand the cause of underachieving? And how do we recognize underachievement?
steff - and it has to do with her brother being an over achiever she doesn't think she can measure up
marg - true, teach4fun; some kids do respond to certain teachers, style of teaching etc-its hard to find what works best for each child.
Kidbiz - I think anger is a cause...especially with a child who is angry because of his family situation...he has no control over that, so refusing to work or try is a way to take control.'
Beth Bruno - Many kids withdraw from competition at school
steff - how can we make our rooms less threatening?
Beth Bruno - Good point Kidbiz. Effort to take control by refusing to be controlled.
Linda/2/CA - What about kids who the psych has called "flat-liners"--ones that are working at their potential--however low it may be
Beth Bruno - I've never heard the term "flat-liners". I don't think it fits most of the kids I've known
Linda/2/CA - It is what our psych calls the students with low IQ who are working at their level of potential--2nd grade students still doing K work or even lower
Beth Bruno - Yes, but students with low IQ scores also have special talents and abilities. And some are extremely hard workers.
teach4fun - Ms. Bruno, a student in another teacher's class just doesn't do anything ... she is at loss...parent contacted, principal, etc. and still ?
marg - we have begun the Responsive Classroom Program which helps each kid really feel part of the group. I think that adds to a comfortable classroom and less threatening ... less threatening...in an academic sense of failure....
Mary K&1 - The testing craze that is sweeping the Country sure won't help these kids!
Beth Bruno - The kids who we think "just don't care" are often behaving in a passive-aggressive way
teach4fun - would that maybe a need for psych evaluation?
Lady Bats - to me passive-aggressive = don't care
marg - how do you handle the passive aggressive students in the primary rooms
Beth Bruno - Passive aggression in kids resembles the "sit-down" strike - I won't do it and you can't make me.
Mary K&1 - I truly believe that there really isn't a child who really doesn't care - I believe that they do care, but there are other forces more powerful working on them to keep them from taking the first steps - they often have developed a self-image that just won't let them break free.
marg - The Responsive Classroom is part of the Northeast Foundation for Children in Greenfield, Mass. It works on teaching social skills and academic skills at the same time.
Lady Bats - haven't taught middle school have you Mary?
steff - and we need to tap into the other abilities and encourage them
SuzyQ - Some of my kids are compliant about working, at least on the surface, but they really don't accomplish much, and definitely not as much as they are able to do. Is that also passive aggressive?
Mary K&1 - Some kids have no control in their lives and by not doing what they are asked to do in school is the only control they have.
Kathleen - Aren't middle school -age children masters of trying to pretend they don't care? Of course they care about some things.
Lady Bats - that's how I would define it Suzy
Beth Bruno - I always work with that assumption, too, Mary. Every child is curious and eager to succeed at something.
Lady Bats - ok.... Mary... I agree with that
marg - i agree that low IQ score students have special talents and abilities..but if our job in the primary is to teach them to read...how do we tap into that special talent
Mary K&1 - No, but middle schoolers are people too, it's not natural for people to not care about anything.
steff - i use art to help foster reading comprehension
Lady Bats - Marg - sometimes you don't - some IQ level kids will not be able to do more than sight words
Beth Bruno - What are some of the ways you discover individual student interests?
Mary K&1 - I have worked with middle and HS kids in extra curric. activities and I was shocked to find the level of fear that they had of failure.
steff - the kids who excel in art usually come up with some great "picture stories" which we turn into verbal stories
teach4fun - Ms. Bruno, what you found is to tap into the interest of the student is the first step?
marg - art ... in what way to foster comprehension
steff - after reading we draw, paint, use the computer to illustrate the stories
Lady Bats - I'd argue that middle schoolers are people thing....I think they go into adolescence people... and come out the other end people......
steff - after reading we draw, paint, use the computer to illustrate the stories
Lady Bats - but there are days I swear they are something else
Beth Bruno - I usually learn a great deal about where to start from meeting the parents.
steff - or we use a picture to begin a story and share a story
teach4fun - Well, I try to listen to my students...
steff - i get hung up with children that have difficulties with math
teach4fun - listen as in trying to track where they are at...thinking about, etc.
Lady Bats - Yes Beth - and not all of it good
Mary K&1 - You can learn a lot if you can find the time to talk to them in a private setting - not where other students can hear what they have to say
marg - individual student interests..we survey favorite animal, food, game, tv show and graph the responses. ..so we have a record of them
SuzyQ - Beth Bruno, do underachievers need to feel that the teacher cares about them before they can even open up to the possibility of learning?
Lady Bats - I teach middle school special ed. math
teach4fun - Yes, I have parents fill out a student data form
teach4fun - with info about hobbies, interests, parents activities, too
steff - how does all this "student interest" transform the classroom academically?
Beth Bruno - I think every student needs to feel that the teacher cares about them. It's tough to develop a unique relationship with each student, but every minute of effort in that direction is worth it.
Mary K&1 - Usually when you meet the parents you end up with a pretty good idea of what the problem is
teach4fun - steff, it is a starting point...
teach4fun - I agree, Beth
steff - is the information used to create lessons?
marg - Beth, I agree the kids need to know we care and that their classmates care about them too...
Mary K&1 - and in most cases, there is little you can do about it, because it is the parents who should do the changing and we have no control over them
Beth Bruno - Do any of you experiment with student created lessons?
steff - it is it used to build a relationship with the child
Lady Bats - right - like when a parent blames everyone in sight for their kids - it's easy to see why the kid doesn't take responsibility
SuzyQ - Is that different from peer tutoring, Beth?
Lady Bats - I let students be the teacher....
teach4fun - I had success using a "carrot" on three in one class....one bright, one clown, and one LD
Beth Bruno - We can try to enlist parent support in many ways - I don't think the goal of changing parents is too realistic.
steff - using a "carrot"
teach4fun - I worked with them to be Library assistants...all turned around and did well, because on wanting that job...
marg - at times I use the information for lessons... we do a beginning of the year activity (part of Responsive Classroom) What are your hopes and dreams for this year...What do you want to learn about this year... then I try to tie their interest into the curriculum demands
steff - i see
Beth Bruno - To give an example, during a unit on the human body. Some students interviewed their dentists. They took part of a class to share their findings.
Lady Bats - sounds like a good idea
SuzyQ - teach4fun, I think that finding something that will hook kids into school is crucial for those borderline kids.
Mary K&1 - Parent support in the toughest cases is just not going to happen. We have to work with the child to learn that school is a different place - it's not home
Beth Bruno - It's a great idea to build lessons around student interests - that involves them more.
teach4fun - I have observed that students are becoming less open in sharing ideas...
marg - what ways do you involve the parents
steff - but if you curriculum is so important to the administrator and has nothing to do with the interest of the kids?
Beth Bruno - I agree that sometimes we have to teach kids that school is their place and is different than home. Still I try to bridge the two whenever I can.
teach4fun - yes, SuzyQ
j - ditto, steff
Kathleen - Transcripts of sessions about Multiple Intelligences are available in the Teachers.Net Archives http://teachers.net/archive/gardner092899.html
steff - thanks J. My principal is very much the curriculum and the text and the programs
steff - it is hard to move around it sometimes
Beth Bruno - Conversations with the student might not get at the root of the problem. So you may have to concentrate on finding interests and sparking that.
Beth Bruno - There are lots of ways of meeting curriculum demands and teaching creative lessons at the same time, don't you think?
lisa - I think that some times the parents are themselves intimidated when they come to school....at Open House we were required to give the parents a list of all the objectives for the year...written in edu. jargon...even my husband couldn't interpret all the info and he graduated in engineering!
marg - there are usually some student interest connections that can branch out from the curriculum...I usually try to point out the connections and then during Readers Choice time direct or encourage them to read certain books
kiki - hi, beth. Sometimes its not that easy figuring out what the child likes especially if there is a language barrier
j - in FL we have grade level expectations that must be met, frustrating when you have a true non-doer
Lady Bats - We do 4MAT
teach4fun - How many of you have all-school motivation programs?
steff - i do creative lessons but they must be curriculum based not interest based
SuzyQ - I live with an adult underachiever, and he is fundamentally not willing to do learning-type work unless it is an area of real interest to him. would this be the same for younger underachievers?
Mary K&1 - I think that we have an advantage in the EC classrooms because we can observe what each child chooses to do during his/her free choice time - that can tell a lot about the child - is there anything comparable at older levels?
steff - all school motivation?
teach4fun - Marg, that is good....
marg - what is 4MAT, Lady Bats
Beth Bruno - I like the idea of meeting parents early in the school year - in individual conferences. Often we don't meet them until November.
Lady Bats - Yea = Lunch time, passing period
teach4fun - for instance, having students with successes get awards, or visits to principal, etc.
lisa - We do a lot with AR school wide
Kathleen - 4Mat is Learning Styles, right?
Ginn - Beth, the parents of the underachievers don't even show up for the conference.
Lady Bats - Yes Kat
Beth Bruno - What is EC classroom and AR school wide?
Lady Bats - but it's more than that
teach4fun - Lisa, is it an encouragement to students?
Kathleen - EC=Early Childhood
marg - what else does 4MAT involve
Beth Bruno - Do you ever do home visits?
Mary K&1 - EC=Early Childhood - AR=Accelerated Reader
kiki - no we are not allowed.
j - seating in cooperative groups, each table works for rewards total at end of week, truly unmotivated student has "who care attitude" and his table doesn't achieve, suggestions?
Beth Bruno - Thank-you. I knew I should have known what EC stood for.
max - hi, I do home visits and it isn't something the school welcomes
marg - our school social workers do home visits...on rare occasions we would be included
Ginn - Yes, I did a lot of home visits when I taught in special education.
Ginn - Home visits are so interesting!!!
max - I would think the unmotivated student would need a more frequent reinforcement schedule
Beth Bruno - I don't do home visits routinely, but I get pretty creative about meeting every child's parent or guardian.
lisa - AR = Accelerated Reader We have goals set each month for each grade level (resource students may have a smaller goal) The students who meet their goal get invited to a "celebration" at the end of the month. Last month it was pizza with a university coach as our special reading guest. PTO is very supportive. Parents come and read to students and help younger ones read the test.
max - home visits often make the difference in turning some children on
steff - unmotivated students need instant gratification
Beth Bruno - An active PTO can contribute a lot!!
j - "table" rewards are used throughout the day but totaled at the end of the week
j - suggestions for INSTANT gratification
max - I think that is wise, Beth
j - what is a PTO?
Kathleen - Information about 4Mat and learning styles: http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/msh/llc/is/4mat.htmlhttp://www.aboutlearning.com/ - About Learning, Incorporated
steff - Parent teacher organization
kiki - beth, what creative ideas do you have for at least getting the parents to come in?
max - depends on what is reinforcing to that unmotivated child, has to be something the child "wants"
Beth Bruno - If you, as the teacher, see that everyone in the group is contributing, but one is not, maybe the rest of the group should get the recognition anyway.
Beth Bruno - PTO is the same as PTA. Parent Teacher organization or association.
j - do I understand? recognition for the group and just ignore the uncooperative students behavior?
Mary K&1 - PTO doesn't have to pay the national dues
marg - I am also interested in ideas for parents
Beth Bruno - I once organized a holiday card-making party and served cookies and coffee. Kids brought their parents and we sat around a big table and made cards. Lots of parents came who had not shown up at regular parent functions.
marg - was the card making party during the school day? with a whole class?
Beth Bruno - I also try to find out what every parent does for a living - that's their expertise and they will usually be willing to share that expertise in some way at the school.
Beth Bruno - Yes it was during the school day, but not with the whole class.
lisa - We have resorted to giving "pink slips" to the students who are doing what we have asked. We collect them and at the end of the day we draw a name for some type of incentive. We also use the Good Handwriting Cup (Rick Morris) as well as a "thinking cap" (can't wear it due to fear of lice) and we choose a Tigger "sitter" for the quiet worker to have the next day. All are visual incentives that we feel are needed at this point to keep everyone on track.
Beth Bruno - We all need incentives sometimes. I think you're wise to build them into your routine - not for everything, but for some.
marg - I have trouble rewarding good behavior..I expect them all to follow the classroom rules
lisa - Parents will usually come if their child is presenting something at PTO
Beth Bruno - So many kids are too busy, just like their parents. I think burn-out is part of the underachiever syndrome.
kiki - Nice idea Lisa, we use play money as an incentive. they are given play money for every good behavior, test grade, helping someone else, etc. then they can cash it in to use it for computer time, center time
lisa - That's great, kiki! Especially as we are beginning our money unit!
Beth Bruno - There are lots of natural ways to "reward" kids. The best is genuine affection, respect and personal listening.
Ginn - What do you do with a student that is just pure lazy? No amount of incentives would work for this child.
Kidbiz - I try not to think of it as rewarding good behavior....but celebrating accomplishments...in my class, kids can earn point for the whole class...and are proud when they do!
marg - Your ideas of having parents in for performances sounds great. Perhaps even during the school day we could have an "author's share" with refreshments... etc
Beth Bruno - Sounds like my daughter. She was totally unbribable (unlike her older brother).
Mary K&1 - Can lazy be a learned behavior? Can lazy be unlearned?
Beth Bruno - Teaching and parenting have many parallels. We have to learn new skills for just about every child it seems.
Beth Bruno - At least every child presents new challenges - let me put it that way.
Ginn - Kidbiz, my class earns a pickle for the pickle jar for good behavior outside of the classroom. Then they are rewarded with a pickle party.
marg - Beth, I like the natural rewards that you mention. They seem like they help the students internalize good behavior and accomplishments
Beth Bruno - What's a pickle party? Intriguing.
marg - I agree that every child presents new challenges...some days that is great..some times very exhausting
Ginn - When our jar is filled with 20 pickles. We have a pickle party where each child gets to eat a pickle. They love it!!!
lisa - We are writing a class book to share with a local restaurant...patrons will sign the book as they wait for dinner. Of course the pages are laminated! Anyway, I'm trying to get the principal to allow us to go to the restaurant and have a little author's tea when we present the book to the place. Anything we can do to showcase the good in our students and to provide them with that little extra that so many of them do not get will help bring a lot of them around!
Beth Bruno - That's hilarious, Ginn. What do the kids eat who hate pickles?
kiki - I think being lazy is just natural. We all have that lazy bone. Sometimes it's hard to motivate those kids but eventually you find something that clicks. It's really what sparks the kid. (Marge)
Beth Bruno - Great idea, Lisa. also involves the community somewhat, another often untapped resource for us.
Ginn - Most kids love pickles. I usually have some other treat such as crackers, veggies and dip, fruit etc.
Beth Bruno - This has been a lively chat - Wow - can't believe it's almost over . Thanks very much everyone.
Beth Bruno - Next month my chat will be called, "Why teach?" Come join in.
