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Beth Bruno - Tonight's meeting is about student use of profanity in school
Beth Bruno - And what teachers and administrators do about it
Beth Bruno - Hi Paul. what do you teach and at what level?
Paul - I teach 5th grade- self-contained room.
Beth Bruno - Do your students use profane language toward you and/ or each other?
Paul - So, tell me your philosophy on why kids swear in class.
Beth Bruno - I don't have a philosophy about it. I think there are many reasons
Paul - last year, I had a student who used profane language on a regular basis. He talked to us as if it were normal to do it that way.
Beth Bruno - such as attention seeking, image with the other students, testing the limits - even to get negative attention.
Kathleen - All those reasons, Beth, I guess, then it becomes a habit when those needs have passed
Beth Bruno - young people imitate what they hear around them from peers and adults.
Paul - The mother, of course, claims she doesn't use that kind of language at home.
Beth Bruno - how do you respond to profanity in the classroom?
Mary/PA - I teach kindergarten and first graders...I haven't had a problem with Foul Language. Once in a while a student will use what s/he has heard at home or on the bus, but I just tell them that we aren't allowed to say that in school and they usually don't use the word/s again
Paul - I confronted it in a quiet way, letting him know it was unacceptable.
Kathleen - And in Kindergarten the bad 's' word is shutup! LOL
Rebecca - How should I handle profanity in my classroom as a student teacher?
Kathleen - A student teacher needs to consult with the supervising teacher to determine classroom rules, school policy
Mary/PA - I said "darn" once and there were many gasps and big eyes looking at ME!
Rebecca - What is the best way to handle it if the co-op is not in the room when the profanity takes place?
Beth Bruno - Kids know foul language is out of bounds from a very young age, don't you think?
Mary/PA - Yes, Rebecca, find out what the school and district policy is and follow it.
Beth Bruno - When you engage students in discussions about how they handle their anger, does the subject of the language they use come up?
Linda/NJ - My K students are inner-city kids, the language they hear on the way to school is foul and they don't know any better.
Beth Bruno - I confess that when my daughter left for college, I yelled a few profanities just for the sheer fun of it, because I didn't have to set an example anymore!
Mary/PA - When a student uses a word that he shouldn't, I usually give alternative, more acceptable ways of saying how he felt and have him practice
Beth Bruno - Kids can learn the difference between bathroom talk, playground talk and classroom talk. It's our job to make sure they know that and practice it.
Mary/PA - I say him, but it can be girls as well
RandyAk2 - I came in late and this may have been answered but do you think its better to confront a student that uses profanity or to ignore it
Kathleen - And even if kids use foul language elsewhere, they can learn to turn it off in certain settings, just as responsible adults do
Kathleen - Randy, I believe it's important NOT to ignore it
Beth Bruno - I prefer talking with the student quietly about it - not ignore it - but not draw attention to the student in front of the class either.
Mary/PA - Randy, I think that it is best to bring it to their attention that they are not supposed to talk that way in school and if they continue, they will have to pay the price - what is your district policy? Ours will get detention if they persist
Kathleen - good point, Beth
Beth Bruno - And whether we like it or not, we are role models, so have to show students how we handle anger, frustration, disappointment.
RandyAk2 - Kat i have a room full of 2nd graders that tell me everything anybody does. its a constant drain on my time to have to stop and correct behavior and then try to get back to my lesson...i have to admit that i try to ignore a lot of the petty tattletale jun
Kathleen - It's pretty discouraging to hear how the language is deteriorating on even network tv
Kathleen - Randy, I've always told my students that they can't interrupt me with tales unless someone is in danger or bleeding.
Mary/PA - I think that you do need to talk with the student quietly, but you also have to let the rest of the class know that you are dealing with it - If not some may go home and report that the teacher is doing nothing about the language being used
Kathleen - Second graders are so anxious to please the teacher that they probably think you will be grateful for the tattles. 8 -/
RandyAk2 - i think my class has heard that a zillion times Kat.
Beth Bruno - When you tell a student that you'll talk with them later about an incident, be sure you do so. Students quickly learn that you intend to hold them accountable in a fair but firm way.
Kathleen - another good point about letting others know that the foul lang. is not appropriate and being dealt with
Kathleen - Randy, some teachers put out a box into which students can deposit messages for the teacher, rather than delivering them verbally. many won't be bothered to write it out...others can use the writing practice anyway ;o)
Beth Bruno - are there rules on the playground and cafeteria for student language?
Kathleen - I'm not familiar with rules pertaining to foul language at the ec/primary level
Mary/PA - In our district foul Language is not permitted any where - inside or out
Beth Bruno - also are there middle school or high school teachers here? If so, what are the issues you deal with language wise?
RandyAk2 - Beth is there a connection between verbal and physical attacks? does one lead to the other?
Beth Bruno - children can learn the difference between fighting with words and fighting with fists. But both are often forms of loss of control. In that sense, they're related.
RandyAk2 - Foul language is not permitted here but the penalties are not very severe. a time out maybe...
Kathleen - Randy, is there much use of foul language?
Beth Bruno - My guess is that students who attack others verbally would be more likely to get physical, too, unless an out of control student is being taught specifically to use words instead of physical aggression
RandyAk2 - It varies from year to year. This year my class has a lot of street smart kids. Some seem very defiant to authority.
Kathleen - Randy, what grades/ages?
Mary/PA - Randy, have you ever tried role playing a situation that happened earlier? Giving the kids a chance to practice a better way to handle it?
RandyAk2 - I had a student that was diagnosed as oppositionally defiant disorder. he was an extreme case . The kids seem more inclined that way lately.
RandyAk2 - my kids are in 2nd grade...mostly 7 and 8 years old
Kathleen - Beth, do you think that in general children are showing signs of being unable to control and express emotions in approp. ways? Or is just that some are so extreme in their inapprop. expressions?
Beth Bruno - are there students who you wish would show their emotions more - including their anger?
RandyAk2 - I have a shy little girl that is very withdrawn and doesn't show any emotions.
Beth Bruno - Can you give ma an example? --perhaps of a child or situation you're thinking of, Kathleen?
Beth Bruno - I find that the quiet children who seem to have shut down are the hardest to work with in counseling.
Kathleen - I don't have a specific child in mind, but there is the impression in the media and discussion groups that in general children are resorting to more extreme measures to express anger.
RandyAk2 - Beth when you find children who just refuse to do what you ask, what do you do?
Beth Bruno - I keep asking in a variety of ways first.
Kathleen - School Psychologist Beth Bruno writes about foul mouthed students in the October edition of the Teachers.Net Gazette: http://teachers.net/gazette
Kathleen - Do you ask, or state what you expect?
Beth Bruno - I never give up, but I also know that I can't force a child to comply. I can set up consequences, but that doesn't always work either.
Mary/PA - Randy, can you give an example?
RandyAk2 - I have tried that but about the last resort has been to phone parents...that usually forces compliance...but it has a short term effect.
Kathleen - With young children, it's the rare exception when the right approach doesn't result in compliance
Beth Bruno - Someone asked about my philosophy earlier. I believe that all children like to master new learning situations and like the feeling of confidence they get from that. So I try to appeal to that desire.
Kathleen - Giving them choices (from among those you provide) helps
Beth Bruno - Engaging a child in a fascinating project can sidetrack them from their anger. They're too busy to waste my time and theirs in power struggles.
RandyAk2 - I would guess that there are no easy answers...just persistence and care
Beth Bruno - Randy, when you talk with parents, do you bring the child into the conversation as a participant?
Kathleen - Randy, I think you're right
Mary/PA - With the young ones, it's usually fear of failure that makes them not want to try, but there are a few kids every now and then that come from rough homes who have learned that refusing is the only way they can show that they have some power and control of their life. - Did that make sense?
Beth Bruno - When children who create a problem, it helps to engage them in finding a solution - again to help them think about reestablishing control.
Kathleen - makes sense, yes, Mary
Beth Bruno - Negative attention is better than no attention at all. That's often a part of the picture.
Kathleen - casey and John, have you had students who use foul language in school?
§casey§ - yes - have a kindergartner who curses constantly - in foster care and foster parents say - that's the way he is at home - no support there
Charles-in-Oz - I was just passing by and the debate looked interesting
Charles-in-Oz - mind if I eat lunch as I watch?
§casey§ - he curses for no apparent reason - doesn't have to be in response to a given situation
Kathleen - Charles, please, make yourself comfortable! Is foul language ever a problem in Australian classrooms?
Charles-in-Oz - foul language is a complex issue
Kathleen - casey, you mean he will be sitting alone and suddenly curse, it's not a response to anger? or is his daily speech just peppered with profanity?
Beth Bruno - I think you can teach students that different behaviors are appropriate at different times. Kids quickly learn what they can and can't do at the neighbor's the church, in stores, at home, etc.
Mary/PA - casey, is he what you would call "an angry child"?
§casey§ - he can be sitting at lunch or in the classroom working on a project and just get up and start with the foul language
Kathleen - casey, does he have other behavioral issues? considering his background, that seems likely.
Charles-in-Oz - foul language is an issue - but also is the issue that many teachers are relatively conservative and some schools can really shock them into unrealistic reactions
§casey§ - mary - we think so - told his social worker that we think he needs some anger management counseling
§casey§ - kathleen - he is defiant - but not physically aggressive - yet
Beth Bruno - is there anger management counseling offered in school?
Kathleen - Charles, do you believe teachers should allow foul language because of the backgrounds of the students?
Kathleen - casey, is it an expression of frustration then?
Charles-in-Oz - however a school should have values
§casey§ - no beth - that is why we spoke to his dcf social worker - our school one is not effective with students
Kathleen - I agree with Charles, the school should establish rules based upon values.
§casey§ - kathleen - i don't know about that - academically he is functioning in the top half of the class
Kathleen - Beth, how could casey help this child with anger management?
Kathleen - casey, that's good news, he has that going for him, an area where he can learn to enjoy positive recognition
Beth Bruno - I don't think it makes sense to adjust classroom rules depending on a student's background. I believe in individualization to reach the goal of "no swearing" if that's the rule, but not to make it ok because of a student's background.
Charles-in-Oz - No - a school sets standards - but appreciates background - I had a child who had only one adjective to draw upon in conversation - we helped expand his vocab - on good days it worked - this child did not swear out of anger - it was common place language
Beth Bruno - The world just doesn't operate that way.
Beth Bruno - Yes, much of a child's use of language has become habit by the time he or she reaches school. Undoing bad habits and building new ones takes a lot of time.
Kathleen - So Charles, that adjective was not used in anger or to inflame, it was just the way he had learned to speak. Expanding his vocab was a good technique then
Mary/PA - casey, do you give him lots of praise for all the "good" things that he does?
John - John logging on - high school counselor- foul language is prevalent in hallways- seems like it is more accepted today than 10 years ago- Why
Charles-in-Oz - Kathleen it was - and its amazing how many other F words there are in the English language
casey - yes, mary
Beth Bruno - I've noticed that too, John. When I walk by a group of students, their casual use of profanity is truly startling to me.
Kathleen - John, we're surrounded by it, the kids' tv and movies are full of it.
Beth Bruno - And they don't stop just because an adult walks by.
Ginny - John, I think today's music has a lot to do with it--that and movies.
Mary/PA - Does he know that you really do like him but it is some of the words that he uses that you don't like?
Kathleen - Ginny, I had forgotten about the music, you're right.
Charles-in-Oz - unfortunately the media has a big role in dictating what appears to be common language and we have to reinforce the enters our boundaries
casey - yes, mary - despite the language he is one of my favorites - i am the special ed person in an inclusion class
Beth Bruno - I agree, especially about movie dialogue. Some movies I turn off just because I get so disgusted with the lazy and repetitive use of profanity.
Ginny - But I do think young people can rise to high standards.
Kathleen - John, the foul language stays out in the corridors, doesn't enter the classroom?
Kathleen - I agree, Ginny.
Mary/PA - Well, casey, it sounds like you have done and are doing everything possible. I don't have any more ideas, sorry.
John - Unfortunately it does, and some teachers accept it and some do not - The kids get mixed messages
Ginny - Recently on the classroom management boards there have been many questions about how to approach the language problem.
Charles-in-Oz - these decisions require community support to see an idea become a policy
casey - thanks mary - i feel bad for the child - his foster home is not the best - i have had other students in that particular home whose behaviors deteriorate once they move in there - but can't get dcf to move the kids
Beth Bruno - I also think that students appreciate adults who expect them to respect one another, their teachers and other adults.
Ginny - Beth, I agree.
Mary/PA - Ginny, what were some of the ideas?
Kathleen - casey, probably the effects of your warm relationship along with unrelenting correction will eventually have a positive effect, it seems you're doing all that can be done.
Ginny - Well, to work on teaching expected behavior...
casey - kathleen - i hope so - the others tend to ostracize him - but we are working on that - hope to have him in a Yale Clinic soon
Mary/PA - Oh casey, that's so sad, that poor child!
Kathleen - Classroom Management chatboard: http://teachers.net/mentors/classroom_management
Charles-in-Oz - expectations are important too - high expectations get high results in any field
Ginny - Mary, but also how we need to stay calm and work privately when possible.
Ginny - When students respect and have faith in your fairness--I think that helps.
Beth Bruno - This has been a terrific discussion. It's a complex subject with no easy solutions.
swot - I have worked with students of all ages with wide range of problems - always found that I have achieved the unachievable by being positive and trying to treat the kids with respect
swot - for some kids, school is the only place where there is any kind of order
Kathleen - swot, that approach works much better than confrontation
Beth Bruno - Swot - you've said a mouthful there.
Beth Bruno - being positive, appealing to a child's best inner self, always treating the students with respect.
Kathleen - The hour is over, thank you Beth Bruno and all participants for an interesting session. Read Beth Bruno's articles in back issues of the Teachers.Net Gazette at http://teachers.net/gazette/backissues
Beth Bruno - Good night all - thanks for your contributions to the discussion. Come back on Nov. 16th if you can.
Mary/PA - Thanks Beth, you always keep us thinking
Ginny - Well, I just dropped in--just as we are finishing...I'll have to watch my time better next time.
Kathleen - Good bye everyone, thank you for contributing to the discussion!
