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Kathleen - Well, with Columbus Day approaching it seems an interesting topic to consider how we teach about Columbus, what really happened, how it happened and what impact it had upon people on both sides of the ocean. So just jump right in!
Kathleen - Those of us who are over hmmmm 35, learned a rather slanted story about Columbus, no?
Mtn ette/4/WV - Hi everybody!!! Saw a great Columbus Day thing on the chatboard that I copied
Gumbo/K/La - RATHER slanted, indeed, Kathleen!!!! :-)
Kathleen - Valerie's idea was to use a child's backpack as the claimed territory...seizing it and calling it ours. eliciting reactions and appraisals and opinions.
tsugrad94 - What literature is accurate about Columbus?
Kathy/5/IA - Yes, Kathleen! The older I got, the more I couldn't understand the reason we even had Columbus Day.
Mary K&1 - Kathy, I agree, why do we still have the day as a holiday? Why can't we let go of it or change it to something more appropriate?
Kathleen - Well, I don't mind having the day off;-), but it was surprising for me to learn that when Columbus arrived here, it was the result of being lost, and that there were people already here. No one mentioned that early on.
Kathy/5/IA - Good question, tsugrad94. Anyone have any titles of books to use in the classroom.
tracy - Does anyone have any good books that explain both sides of the story?
tsugrad94 - I have all of the recent children's lit releases but I can't recall their accuracy.
Kathleen - good question tracy
Gumbo/K/La - Columbus Day not a holiday here....... never has been that I can remember......
Kathy/5/IA - I'd celebrate the day more it we had it off here!!!! Just another school day in Iowa! (I guess we honor our Indian heritage of the area - and not take the day off!)
Mary K&1 - We don't get the day off. We don't get any mail and can't go to the bank, but we still go to school
tracy - I think he was acting in a manner appropriate with his time. Nowadays it appears scandalous but how do we convey this to young children?
tsugrad94 - Children are going to wonder why he is a hero if he did something wrong.
Kathleen - I tell my kindergartners about Columbus getting lost, mis-labeling the people he found living here as Indians,
tracy - And how does Americo Vespuchi fit in?
reader - It easy to see now that the concept of discovery is wrong. But in 1492, when Columbus left Europe he was setting out on a journey that was unknown.
Sea/2 - poor ol' Americo just doesn't get any credit!
Kathleen - Well, Amerigo is remembered by the name
Vicki - At our school no one makes a big deal about Columbus Day. The majority of the first grade teachers don't even mention the day at all.
Mary K&1 - I tell my Kinders that it was new to him, but not to the people who were already living here
tracy - he is remembered by adults but do the kids really get taught that?
Kathleen - But the impression is that he found something unclaimed that he could claim as his (or his sponsors')
reader - What about the native Americans that came across the land bridge and the norsemen that landed on Newfoundland.
Kathleen - well, what we want to guard against is teaching children something that is not true, misconceptions
Sea/2 - Columbus only did what came naturally to exploring Europeans of his day... right?
Mtn ette/4/WV - Well, I always liked Columbus Day - probably because my birthday is the 13th of Oct. LOL
reader - We are a core knowledge school. We still talk about discoveries and exploration from the Euro viewpoint.
Sea/2 - just like the uh, Americans, landing on the moon and planting our flag there... ;)
Kathleen - It would probably be helpful if we didn't even attempt to teach such an abstract concept to young children, but we don't all teach young children, what about you who teach older kids?
reader - I agree SEa/2
tracy - Yes he did what came naturally. He was a violent man and ruthlessly pulled people from their families to exhibit them back in Spain
Michael - Just tell students he came over, spread diseases and lead to the mess we now call North America...just kidding
Sea/2 - well, tracy, columbus sure got his comeuppance... for he also would end up in chains... and disgraced
Mtn ette/4/WV - Gee, I didn't know that, Sea
tsugrad94 - You could get into a good discussion about the differences in culture. Indians don't believe in man owning any part of Mother Earth, right?
Kathleen - I believe you are right, tsugrad94
tracy - i really wish someone would write an historically accurate but suitable for young children book about this.
Janet/NM - Spreading of diseases was a disaster and very real but it was unintentional...his treatment of the native people was inhumane and very much his fault
Sea/2 - he was simply a map maker, trying to make good a route to the Indies (i don't think we can blame him for disease spreading... little too unknown at the time)
Mtn ette/4/WV - I just thought he was honored because he was the one that told the others and then they came to America to see what a great place that he had discovered
tsugrad94 - I think there are some - maybe one - but I can't recall the exact title.
Sea/2 - agree with Janet
reader - There is one as told by a native American boy. I would have to log off to get the name.
Mtn ette/4/WV - They didn't know about diseases back then...
Kathleen - reader, you could post it on the main chatboard later.
Sea/2 - good evening, bob!
Kathy/5/IA - If you could get the title, that would be great. Or post it on the chatboard.
Vicki - Does anybody out there have to teach about Columbus in lower elementary. In our curriculum we don't touch him until 2nd grade.
tsugrad94 - I see how you could easily set-up a mock debate. One group be Indians the other group explorers.
reader - Life in his time was inhumane. We can't judge what happened in the past. We have a whole different society.
Sea/2 - vicki, i teach it to my 2nd graders
Kathleen - I think part of the problem of misleading kids about history would be solved if we didn't try to teach it before they are ready to understand
Mtn ette/4/WV - I agree reader
Sea/2 - true, tsugrad
Sea/2 - i agree, reader
reader - I teach first grade and do a whole unit on early explorers
tracy - yes--I'm new to first grade and we have to teach him. When I taught 3rd grade it was easier to be more accurate because they were better able to understand. I think the younger grades promote a fairy tale Columbus
Kathy/5/IA - True, Kathleen!
Mtn ette/4/WV - Kat - when are they ready to understand?
Janet/NM - I try to emphasize with my kids (all Native American) the courage it must have taken and the knowledge gained on the trip and that all heroes aren't perfect
tsugrad94 - If we are going to fix our mistakes with Columbus, we need to do the same with the Pilgrims!!
Kathleen - we can't change, but we can attempt to present a more accurate representation
reader - Then we have to change history..
Mtn ette/4/WV - and where do black people come into this?
Sea/2 - kat, i try to balance my presentation to my kids
~Rose~ - It would be interesting to have students write a script between two natives describing what america would be like had Columbus not arrived.....
Kathy/5/IA - I don't teach SS anymore (departmentalized). I know they are studying explores, but I don't really know how they handle the Columbus issue.
Vicki - I teach first grade and all our curriculum says is that the students develop awareness of explorers. No names are mentioned.
Kathleen - They aren't ready at age 5-6 to understand what is beyond their own time and place
Kathleen - Rose, that's an interesting exercise
Mary K&1 - Perhaps we need to start a letter writing campaign to have to name of the day changed to something that we can truly celebrate so that all the gov. employees can still have their day off. e.g. Explorers Day
reader - Thank you Kathleen. Try teaching ancient egypt and the land bridge to first graders.
Mtn ette/4/WV - I don't really think 4th graders are ready for this either
meeha/ece/tx - I'm far enough "out of the loop" that I didn't even realize there was a problem with this teaching -- what's the controversy? (help!)
Kathy/5/IA - Sometimes 10 year olds aren't ready to understand what is beyond their own time and place...or they don't want to...(self-centered at times)
Kathleen - Plunderers Day?;-)
Sea/2 - lol meeha!
Janet/NM - lol,
Mary K&1 - Kathleen :-\
Kathleen - meeha, you shouldn't have to worry about it at your level, except that many centers do try to teach about Columbus, but the story becomes a bit warped and one sided and misleading
Sea/2 - geez, we'll have to go back and explain those Jamestown settlers and so on and so on...
sue - now i understand. I don't really celebrate the major holidays with my 4's. we do weird stuff they can understand like national pig day or grandparents day
Sea/2 - ALL EXPLORERS have a "job" description... find/obtain/capture $$$
meeha/ece/tx - as much as my kiddos have gotten thus far is "In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue" -- and we get to have the day off! That is as far as I dare go, they're just not there yet!
Sea/2 - or the means to it! ($)
~Rose~ - Thank you Kathleen
reader - Pig day sounds like fun, sue
Mary K&1 - Sea/2 does capture have to be part of it?
Sea/2 - trying to generalize, mary K&1
Kathleen - The problem for little kids is that they often learn early on (incorrectly) that a nice, brave man (men) came over to this beautiful place and encountered a bunch of savages, took some of them back the way zoo animals are captured these days, and claimed their land for his investors
sue - meeha, we have a fairly large population of native american children ( dulac and houma tribes). The parents make sure to share the heritage with everyone at school
reader - Just think what will happen when people from earth find another civilization in some far away solar system
sue - reader-- it's in March and was started because so many people made negative comments about pigs
Sea/2 - i agree, kat. but it was also a sign of the times. kids DO need to hear both sides
Sea/2 - so true, reader! we'll be out to claim it!
sue - I have mixed feelings. History happened, you can't change the facts but you can teach children to be more tolerant and aware of others
Kathleen - Yes, my point exactly, they need to know that there are 2 sides. and more of a time line. (but not at age 5)
Sea/2 - good comment, sue
Sea/2 - we talk more about his mapping skills (and how he obtained support for his voyages) than about the plundering...
meeha/ece/tx - i've taken to very little teaching about our history as newcomers to this land -- 'pilgrims' (settlers) vs 'indians' (native americans) -- i always come out feeling that we teach the wrong issues! just need to figure out what the right issues are !
reader - I like that idea of teaching about his mapping skills. Sea/2 Will use it to continue our unit on maps and map reading.
Kathleen - meeha, at your level shouldn't the kids be learning about here and NOW
meeha/ece/tx - that's where we spend our time -- unless a selected (child-selected) book takes us back for a spell!
sue - meeha, i teach thanksgiving as time of sharing with others, all others. We collect foods for the "poor people" even though most of it will be brought back to the same families and focus on the family aspect
Janet/NM - ...I agree, age 5 is too young to teach everything, but if we only teach the "good things about Columbus we are perpetuating the myth about how "great" he was. Both sides need to be taught
Gumbo/K/La - I just use it to teach the continents........
meeha/ece/tx - thanks, sue!
Mtn ette/4/WV - I may be naive, but I have always thought that Columbus found a new place, went back and told his people about it and about what a neat place it was. The others like Lief Ericson went back and said it was uninhabitable and the Indians found a new land and didn't go back to tell anyone - they just stayed here!!!
Kathleen - for Thanksgiving my kids relate best to the turkeys
Mr.C - how about a net scavenger hunt re: discovering America? who did what and when going back a few 1000 years... post it to teachers.net and collaborate on results?
Sea/2 - poor columbus, a map maker, never a true "leader" probably had little notion of the havoc he created (Too busy worrying about making a good impression with the queen... for future supported voyages)
Janet/NM - In my area...if we ignored Columbus...the families would only teach the negative side of the story
sue - kat, one of mine related too much, cried at a finger play about eating a turkey LOL!
Sea/2 - poor natives... from Hawaiian to African! (All taken advantage of)
Mary K&1 - I relate the whole Columbus thing to "learning by our mistakes" 5 year olds seem to understand that. We did something, it wasn't right, but now we know better.
Kathleen - sue, LOL! but see, that they can understand, Asking little kids to relate to Pilgrims and "Indians" isn't realistic or productive.
Sea/2 - very good, mary K&1! A gold * for you! :)
Janet/NM - sounds good to me Mary K&1
Mtn ette/4/WV - What did Columbus do that was wrong?
bill/sd - Mary, who is "we"?
Kathleen - Mr. C. would you start a thread like that on the main chatboard?? sounds interesting!
Sea/2 - and how columbus' blunder, accidentally discovered a new world for Europeans... not really valued till MANY years later
sue - sea, it's not only the natives. immigrants to the country had a rough time, too. My background is italian and german/dutch. Grandparents had to watch great parents loose a business during W.W.II because of prejudice
Mary K&1 - Does anyone know of a place where the "old story" is still taught?
Sea/2 - true, sue. LOTS of that around
Kathleen - Mary, I'm afraid that many teachers (early grades)still teach it pretty much the old way.
Mary K&1 - Claiming something that wasn't his - people once thought that it was OK to do that, but we wouldn't do something like that now
Kathleen - we SHOULDN'T do something like that now:-)
Janet/NM - uuuuuhhhh...are you sure?
Sea/2 - well, mary. if our country is ever attacked by ____ (?) i'll be sure to tell them they can't claim our land... a very good teacher told me so!
Mr.C - well... I'm holding my baby now... can't post to much of anything... typing 3 wpm
Kathleen - Mr. C. hang in there...
Sea/2 - how sweet, Mr. C (hi baby!)
bill/sd - Mary: Perhaps in a myopic view of only America. I wouldn't apply that worldwide even right now. Croatia, middle east, etc.
Janet/NM - Indigenous people in the United States watched the government do just that...a long time after Columbus!
Mtn ette/4/WV - In his day, Columbus was quite a brave soul, wasn't he?
Mary K&1 - In my class room we won't ever do something like that, we don't claim something to be ours when it isn't
Mr.C - wouldn't it be better to post to listserv?
Mary K&1 - For little kids you have to bring it all home
Mary K&1 - not understandable any other way
bill/sd - I agree with you.
Kathleen - Mr. C. but if on the board, it develops into a worthwhile thread, we could preserve it in "Lessons"
Sea/2 - yes (janet) & yes (Mtn.) plus persistent to finally obtain support for his ships!
Mary K&1 - When I say "we" I mean my students and myself
Mary K&1 - It all has to start with each person
Sea/2 - i've enjoyed this! good night for now! thanks.
Mr.C - however you want me to do it... myself, I don't read boards much... how about you do the board and I'll hit the listservs? btw...our school has many immigrants and ESL students... exploring and discovering America has a much different meaning for them...
Mtn ette/4/WV - Why don' t we have a Lewis and Clark Day?
Kathleen - Mr C. when we HOLD onto rather than have differing perspectives, it is divisive..that didn't come out the way I want to convey it. When each "side" learns that theirs was a good guy, there is no empathy or understanding, there is conflict and down the line, prejudice
Mary K&1 - The astronauts are brave, they make "discoveries", but what follows?
Kathleen - money and fame?
Mr.C - I agree with you Kathleen to an extent... but holding different perspectives is what we want, right? And the key is to respect and encourage differences
Kathleen - Mr C, yes, I don't like the way I explained that, I mean when we hold only a one sided perspective ...grrr..can't frame this...our misconceptions make enemies out of victims, heroes out of plunderers, etc
Mtn ette/4/WV - This conversation is absurd, but I will go along with it...Did Columbus know he was bringing disease to the people that lived here? Did he claim it for himself, or just tell about what he found? Does anybody know the answers to these questions?
Mtn ette/4/WV - I don't find fault with Columbus, but with the people that followed him
Mr.C - well how about exploring our plundering? ... because that's what capitalism is... an adolescent economic system based on materialistic greed... with little concern for our fellow man.
Janet/NM - No Columbus didn't know he was bringing the diseases, He claimed it for Spain, but to prove what he found he abused and kidnapped local people...and he was looking for riches...he just never found them
Mtn ette/4/WV - Well, we all look for riches - look how well the lotteries do
nikle/wi - Columbus didn't know he was bringing diseases, and he claimed this country for the Kingdom of Spain and Kingdom of God (the Catholic Church)
Kathleen - As long as students are given the opportunity to see more than one side of the issue...because when all they get is the eurocentric version, it leads to a warped understanding of history
Janet/NM - I would hope we don't exploit innocent people buying the tickets
Mary K&1 - Mtn - are we taking something away from someone by playing?
Mtn ette/4/WV - But, Janet, look at the poor people buying those tickets - taking money from their babes that could be used for food
Janet/NM - OK....some people could be if they are playing with money that should be used for food, ets
Mtn ette/4/WV - Columbus was a dreamer, much like the people of today - I dream, I just don't act upon my dreams like he did
Janet/NM - basically....we can't excuse an improper action just because there are still people doing it
Mary K&1 - Mtn, so we haven't learned anything?
nikle/wi - Columbus is respected because of his ambition and persistence in setting up the voyage to the "new world". That might be something even 1st graders could understand.
Mtn ette/4/WV - Oh, dear Janet - everybody left and I am just b s ing - hope I haven't made you mad...
Janet/NM - I'm sure many people have learned...and I would hope Columbus' mistakes couldn't be so easily repeated
Mr.C - capitalism exploits people... we should emphasize an alternative... secular humanism... which to my way of thinking is what Thanksgiving, Columbus Day, America should be about. Caring about our fellow humans... sharing, etc. If we focus on collaboration with our teaching techniques... get our students to share, we will go a long way... maybe I'm going to far marrying Columbus Day with Thanksgiving...
Kathleen - But it wasn't a NEW World, that implies it didn't exist until a European found it.
Kathleen - Columbus and Thanksgiving present similar issues
Janet/NM - not really...we don't always teach the truth about Thanksgiving either
Mtn ette/4/WV - It was new to the Euopeans
nikle/wi - The Europeans looked at everything from their perspective. In that way this continent was a "new world" (note the small n and w).
Ginnie - I think our ancestors are rolling over in their graves at some of the things we tell our students...the native americans were here 1st does everyone agree
Kathleen - agree
Mary K&1 - Ginnie, I agree totally
Mtn ette/4/WV - agree
nikle/wi - The nat. Am. were here 1st, but to the Eur. they didn't count, they were less than human. To them the land was not really being used.
Kathleen - nikle, that is the perspective that prevails among many to this day
Mary K&1 - And I still say that mistakes were made, and we have learned from these past mistakes or improper practices
Mr.C - What I'm arguing for here is a way to teach positive values without ignoring the negatives of the events... students need to have positive goals to attain, not just trash people in history... remember, that times have changed in some ways in others not at all.
nikle/wi - K--you're right
Mtn ette/4/WV - Mary - intelligent people have learned - we still have those idiots out there with their prejudices
nikle/wi - Columbus Day is celebrated not because Col. needed to be glorified, but that's when "things" really got going, for good or evil, and the Eur. shaped this country.
Mtn ette/4/WV - I agree nikle
Kathleen - Mr. C. and I'm not wanting to trash people in history, but I think it's important to teach the truth, explorers explored for economic reasons, and as a result civilizations were destroyed, and prejudices resulted that are a problem to this day.
Ginnie - I simply try to tell the kids that many explorers including the VICIOUS vikings were exploring at the same times
Mr.C - Hey... no argument here Kathleen... we're still destroying civilizations... ever hear of East Timor?
Ginnie - Columbus made a RECORDED discovery in the name of Spain, there was also an Asian discovery around the same time are you familiar with that
Mtn ette/4/WV - Wonder what the US would be like today if Lief Ericson had said this was a neat place and all his people would have come over to check it out
Kathleen - No, Mr. C, teach me.
Mtn ette/4/WV - East Timor????
Mr.C - The Indonesian army has been committing genocide in East Timor... a small island.... for almost 10 years... with U.S. backing... because of guess what... oil. And do you have any idea how much time we waste with Lewinskigate so important issues like that never get any press at all?
Kathleen - I know, it's frustrating what we get bogged down with..
Mr.C - Frustrating isn't a word for it... it's criminal what we avoid looking at as a culture... and we do it today... all the time. 1/4 of East Timorans wiped out... and *no one knows or cares in America*... or at least gives the impression of it... it's a capitalist conspiracy of maintaining ignorance, and focusing on the trivial as though significant.
Kathleen - I'll do some reading about East Timor, Mr. C.
Mr.C - It's just one example of global problems we have no focus on. Why do you think they blew up our embassy in Kenya? Have you seen any coverage trying to figure that one out?
Kathleen - everything has been overshadowed by "the scandal"
Mr.C - the scandal is meaningless
Kathleen - overshadowed by interest in the scandal:-/
nikle/wi - Mr. C--you make a good point. We fight "terrorism" if directed at us, but we don't recognize long term terrorism against helpless people.
Mr.C - thanks nikle... because that is what we do all the time... then come down on "terrorists"... what about the terror we inflict on others?
Kathleen - Bye, Mr. C. watch for more Hot Topics
Kathleen - Well, it's well past 10, so I guess I'll go now, too. Thank you to all who came and helped us explore an interesting topic. The next Hot Topic will be "Inclusion".
