Teachers.Net & Balance Group Publishers Present: "Crises Response Planning" Wed., June 10 with authors Dave Opalewski and Joel Robertson

Our Two guests are Dave Opalewski and Joel Robertson, authors of "Crises Response Planning", published by Balance Group

Joel and Dave, Bob R/CA will be here also, he is the co-creator of the site.

Bob R/CA - I am here, welcome Dave and Joel, thanks for being here. just ask if you have any questions

Dave - Statistics show that a crisis such as the one’s we address occur at least once in five years in every school. Our manual and videotape training kit provides effective and appropriate training and materials to schools prior to a tragedy.

Our materials address the pre-crisis planning, the crisis time, and post-crisis follow-up necessary to plan and respond appropriately to a crisis. We address specific types of crises including homicide, suicide, and death by accident or illness, of both students and staff members.

I have been in education for 26 years and have experienced the death of 25 students or staff members. I have been a replacement teacher in the fifth grade classroom when my best friend in education died in a tragic accident. I have used these experiences to create these materials for others to use, and not to experience the difficulties we experienced when not having a clear crisis plan.

I teach Death & Dying and Suicide Prevention for Central Michigan University. I have been an Aftercare consultant for a funeral home. My Master Thesis is titled Death Education: Concerns for the Classroom Teacher.

Dr. Joel - I have worked extensively in the area of brain chemistry and behavior. My background in neuropharmacology brought me into the field of compulsivity, violence, suicide, etc with kids. A neuropharmacologist, is a med. school degree that specializes in brain chemistry. I am the president of Robertson Institute in the US and Australia. We do reseach on brain chemistry, behavior and methods to enhance chemical imbalances. I have written more than 10 books in the field. We can be contacted for more information at peakperformance@worldnet.att.net
Dave - We appreciate the opportunity to share our experiences with you tonight.
Dave - We are ready for any questions.
Kathleen. - Dave, is your progrm training for trainers?
Dave - Yes, our kit includes videos and facilitator guides so that entire districts can train within themselves.
Dr. Joel - There are some fascinating connection between brain chemistry, violence and suicide that we address in our training and books. This information is helpful in prevention and treatment of adolescents in trouble.
Sea/2 - do you mean "train themselves" as counselors?
Kathleen. - So, Joel, part of the program involves watching for warning signs?
Sea/2 - what did you learn about brain chemistry in connection to violence?
Dave - Sea / we believe that the students respond best to familiar faces, so yes we do train you as counselors
Mountaineer 4/WV - Can you give us some of the warning signs?
Dr. Joel - No questions that warning signs can be helpful not only in identifing the crises but in helping staff to understand the hows and whys of violence
Dave - Mountaineer - Do you mean violence or suicide?
Dr. Joel - Brain chemistry, specifically low serotonin, predispose adolescents to suicide and violent behavior. It also correlates with compulsivity, such as drug and alcohol abuse
Sea/2 - Dr. Joel, the hows and whys of violence? is it a chemical inbalance?
Doodah - Aren't we talking about the kinds of warning signs that any teacher could recognize?
sue - dave, I recently had an experience with my church day school. One of the children's parents killed his wife in a crowded mall and then disappeared. His child was in school and the police sent in an entire swat team to protect him and the other 105 students complete with guns, scopes and bulletproof vests. How can you plan to help children deal with something like that?
Mountaineer 4/WV - I would like some warning signs that I could note as a classroom teacher as to violence AND suicide, altho' right now I am more interested in violence
Jen/NJ2MD - What things can be done to best prevent violent behavior in students?
Dr. Joel - Sea that is a connection as I mentioned between brain chemistry and violence. ALthough it isn't the only factor it appears to be one of the major factors in teen suicide (self directed violence) or in violence
Dave - Doodah - yes definitely
Sea/2 - Dr. Joel, are you saying they needed to be on meds to prevent it? Like anti-depressants?
Dr. Joel - Jen most adolescents don't have a great deal of skill in dealing with conflict resolution. Part of our program is to teach such issues as part of suicide prevention.
JJ - Dr. Joel, does this brain chemistry have anything to do with ADD, ADHD, FAS, or FAE?
Sea/2 - Dr. Joel, your team comes into schools when they are in crisis situations?
Dr. Doolittle - Sue...what happened to the child? Was he placed in protective custody? Did they ever find the dad?
Jen/NJ2MD - RE: Kathleen's question, did you do longitudinal studies, Dr. J?
Dr. Joel - Sea, medication isn't usually the answer as much as using specific behavior and learning techniques to enhance serotonin levels, except in depression that is genetically based on.
Dave - Sue - we cannot control the factor of fear, we help the school be prepared for the most common types of crises by establishing plans for dealing with media, families, community.
Kathleen. - Dave, does preparation decrease fear?
Dr. Joel - Sea, we equip the school to handle the crises. Our manuals are very detailed to offer guidelines on handling crises. In our studies when the teachers and other familiar people handle the crises the students grow through the experience
sue - dr doo, the child was placed in protective custody, the father committed suicide the next morning.
Sea/2 - to enhance serotonin levels you... (help them to laugh maybe?)
Doodah - Learning techniques to increase setotonin levels?...What do you mean?
Dr. Doolittle - That is so tragic Sue! I guess that's why we're here.
Dr. Joel - JJ, Yes in fact I have a new book that addresses ADD specifically and the issues of brain chemistry. Harper Collins is my publisher. Balance group, the publishers our teachers manuals will probably be offering some additional help soon
Dr. Joel - Sea, exactly things such as meditation,specific types of exercise, quiet time, can all contribute to increasing serotonin
Dave - Sue - the Crises Response Planning would have allowed the school to have the crises team well defined with roles well understood for such situations. However yours is very tragic and we hope that your community helped support you through this time.
sue - dave, the parents of the other children were very upset becuase they were not called or allowed to pick up their children by order of the police who feared a hostage/ shoot out situation. There was no follow up for the children although the parents were asked to be aware of signs of stress.
Dr. Joel - Doodah, serotonin is affected by diet, exercise, certain nutritional issues, thoughts and conflict as well as medication
Dr. Doolittle - Is behavior modification helpful when students start to exhibit violent behavior? In other words, is it OK to punish the student for the behavior and reinforce positive behaviors?
Anna/Aust - Sue: The protective custody the child went was familiar to him ?
judith - I live in Springfield Oregon
Sea/2 - Dr. Joel...could you share some of these techniques that help (exercises?)
Dave - Sue - Just as important is the debriefing process so that students have the proper opportunity to express their fears and discuss them with caring adults.
Dr. Joel - In our research with more than 12,000 patients we find all but the most severe cases can respond without medicaiton. That doesn't overshadow the importance of medication, just less of a need than we orignally thought
Sea/2 - sounds like if you could bottle serontonin...it would be a happy potent!
Kathleen. - judith, Springfield Oregon, the site of the most recent school tragedies??
judith - Are you talking about ridolin (sp?)
judith - Kathleen, yes it is
Dr. Joel - Sea, quiet activities in a person that is basically sedentary, ie walk in the park or in nature increase serotonin levels. I published an article in New Woman magazine this month that gives more info
judith - His father was my Spanish teacher
sue - no anna-- it was just a policeman, they didn't want anyone familar around him for fear of the the father. Good news though the little guy is doing better now and has been adopted by his aunt
Jen/NJ2MD - RE: Sea/2 isn't Prozac s/t to inc serotonin?
Dave - Dr. Doolittle - discipline for correction of the violent is appropriate from a corrections standpoint not a punishment standpoint
Sea/2 - no judith...ritalin is a stimulant that helps some ADD kids...but i think this is different...
Mountaineer 4/WV - Does increased seratonin help with depression and a tendency toward violence?
Dr. Joel - Serotonin is certainly the number one genetic biochemical malady that we have. Our lifestyles also tend to create a problem with maintaining adequate levels of serotonin. We need to get balanced in our society to improve our serotonin levels
Kathleen. - judith, you have a very real perspective on this topic
judith - so is the doctor recommending serotonin for teens
Sea/2 - dr. j...that sounds very interesting...i know how much my little afternoon walks (about 15 min.) relax me
Dr. Joel - Mountaineer, in incarcerated individuals with low sertonin, increasing levels decrease violence, compulsivity and depression
Dr. Doolittle - But how do you increase serotonin in a school environment? Take the kid outside and walk him around if he starts exhibiting violent behavior?
Dave - Everyone - we have found that the method that a school handles the crises has a major impact on the lives of those students long after they have graduated.
Jen/NJ2MD - Why does it seem that most of the violent stories you hear in the news is committed by young males?
judith - Yes, I wear my blue ribbon and black and red ribbon regularly. It's something we can't just let go. It's too present.
Doodah - Obviously, having fences, security cameras, and security guards is not enough, right Judith?
JJ - Dave, or Dr.Joel, I just heard on the news about a program called "Leash on Life" which is a program to connect violent teens with abuse animals where the teens care for the animals. Have you heard of this?? Would this help the Serotonin levels?
Dr. Joel - Judith, teens with low serotonin (generally kids with out a nuturing system) are predisposed to low serotoin
~§Jude§~ - That is what I do Dr. Doolittle, a walk helps my kids a lot...plus then you loose the audience effect.
judith - nurturing increases serotonin then?
Dr. Joel - Jen, low serotonin combined with high dopamine, which is more prevalent in males, creates outward violence
meeha/ece/tx - So, Dr. Joel, after what period of time is it difficult to "remedy decreased serotonin
Dave - JJ - see the response from Dr. Joel to Jen.
Dr. Doolittle - Do you take your whole class Jude?
~§Jude§~ - JJ a lot of local training schools here have "pet therapy" it is great, the kids help the APS adopt them out too
Sea/2 - so serotonin is the serenity, feel-good part of the brain!!! nature and loving environments enhance it...(?)
Dr. Joel - meeha, if low serotonin is present it takes between 2-4 months for the person to see positive signs
Kathleen. - Is it as it seems, that there is more violence, more violent males??
Dr. Joel - Sea, yes, plus it is the anti-depression and anti compulsive part of our brain chemistry
~§Jude§~ - I work with the ones who go out of control a lot...usually I just walk with the one who is loosing control
judith - This is confusing. Serotonin is released through nurturning - yet we have to be careful how much we touch or get close to these kids. it's a controdiction
Sea/2 - how do you "test" for serontonin? blood test?
Dave - Everyone - large amounts of research have shown that students would rather grieve with people they see every day at school, not outside professionals brought in for the day.
Dr. Joel - Kathleen, yes outward directed violence is more prevalent with males because of the social conditions that favor increased dopamine
Sea/2 - so true, judith
Jen/NJ2MD - Dr. Joel, could you clarify your response to meeha. Do you mean 2-4 of medication and therapy is needed to inc seratonin?
judith - Sea2 what can we do
Sea/2 - social conditions like "be macho" (?)
Dr. Doolittle - Jude...I average 33 students in a class, I have removed one to a hallway to talk with privately but to leave my whole class...?
~§Jude§~ - that appears to be a liability issue Judith, not a "best interest" issue...I hate it too
Jen/NJ2MD - Judith you're right on target with that dilemma!
meeha/ece/tx - anti compulsive part of the brain -- is there a decreased level of serotonin in ADD children??
Dr. Joel - Sea, we developed a series of phsyiological questions that relate to brain chemistry that is similar to measuring signs and symptoms. This works like blood pressure. No blood tests tell high or low serotonn only the signs and symptoms
Dave - Everyone - How many of us make good decisions when under large amounts of stress (related to a tragedy), we help to make decisions ahead of time, so that they are not affected by the stress of the situation.
Doodah - Let me see if I understand...if we notice the signs, we can suspect low serotonin, and we then start nurturing, and should see results in 2-4 months?
judith - You can't leave your whole class. You're responsible if something happens. It's double jearpody. The kid needs you but you can't be two places at once.
Dr. Joel - Jen, no in 93% of our cases of non-psychotic patients their symptoms improved in 2-4 months without medicaiton
Sea/2 - judith, with some of my "bizarre" kids a quiet touch on the shoulder and "being near" is calming...(wouldn't want to hug them when I'm upset with them anyway!!!)
judith - so there is a way to predict violent behavior in a child
~§Jude§~ - no I would not take the whole class, I should have clarified that I am not a regular ed teacher
Dr. Joel - meeha, I believe there are 6 different types of ADD. The lack of concentration with out hyperactivity and with compulsivity is predominately related to low serotonin
judith - Seal/2 I understand. I sometimes just touch their shoulder. Some kids actually pull away even if touched on the shoulder.
Dr. Joel - Judith, violence, compulsivity, and lack of nuturing under the age of 12 years of age are good indicators for a violent teen
Sea/2 - sad but true, judith
Mountaineer 4/WV - My ADHD kid didn't want to be touched
~§Jude§~ - that sounds like "attachment disorder" as well Dr. Joel
judith - Curious - Kip was nurtured, but always had a temper and violent side to him. What could be done for him
hegumbe - Dave and Dr. Joel, How could your crisis program be used to help crises like those that happened in springfield, Paducah, etc.?
Jen/NJ2MD - Judith and Sea, I used to give my kids HI-5s when they enter or leave my class. Creates good vibes with a touch that cannot be misinterpreted:-}
Dr. Joel - Mountainner, ADHD kids usually have low serotoninn and high dopamine, which creates a mistrust and certain fear of being touched. I agree with you
Mary K&1 - Does this also relate to early bonding or lack there of?
Sea/2 - dave, how can questions identify the low serotoninn?
Dave - Everyone - Just a quiz. Does your crises plan cover...Catastrophic death, such as those resulting from a school bus accident? An HIV-positive student breaks his/her code of silence? A memorial service on school grounds? Separate policies and procedures for accidental death versus suicidal death? Letters to parents and remembrance activities? More to follow (first 4 of 14)
Sea/2 - sounds good, jen
judith - Thanks for the H-5 idea
Dr. Joel - Judith, does Kip have a parenteral history of depression, addiction, or other compulsivity?
Sea/2 - betcha it does, mary K&1
Kathleen. - Dave, I don't think my school covers 10% of those events
Sea/2 - gee, dave...no way!
Dave - hegumbe - we would know exact procedures before it happened, including protective procedures for students, handling of media (no free-roaming)
Janice/2/IL - Dave, we have a crises team at our school, but none of the teachers have been trained.
JJ - Does your program deal with day-to-day problems as well as crisis planning?
Dr. Doolittle - I have never seen a crisis plan at my school!
Dr. Joel - Sea, physiological signs and symptoms, such as focusing eyes, etc. relate to peripheral signs that relate to central signs. It is rather complex, but accurate, in non psychotic patents
Mountaineer 4/WV - We have no crisis plan for anything!!!
judith - he had a great fasination with guns and bombs. The entire house had bombs in it. They had to tear part of the house down to get to the bombs. His parents couldn't stop it. they were not into guns at all.
Sea/2 - do "professionals" have to give the quiz, Dr. Joel?
Dr. Joel - JJ, our program is set up for pre-crises, crises and post crises. In the pre and post we deal with the everyday issues
meeha/ece/tx - My school's plan didn't cover a child havin a seizure in the classroom! We worked through it, though.
Dr. Joel - Sea, we certify counselors, physicians, psychologists to administer the test
judith - Dr. Joel, It was the crisis plan that Thurston High had implimented and taught to the kids and staff that saved so many lives.
Dave - Everyone - additional crises plan quiz items - Dealing with the media? Returning personal property of deceased students or staff? Death occurring on school grounds while school is in session? Attempted suicide on school grounds, and a plan for the individual's return to school? Lesson plans for grieving students?
Kathleen. - Dr. Joel, is the physiological information you've been sharing here included in the Crises Response Planning Program you authored and which is available via Balance Group Publsihing?
Sea/2 - that's true, judith! it's important
shannon - question- to anyone- do you involve police in all drug incidents-
Kathleen. - Dave, no, no, no, no, and no :-(
Doodah - My school's plan covers a multitude of crises, but I haven't learned the manual...wouldn't have time to read it all in an emergency.
Sea/2 - good grief...these are sure sad times
~§Jude§~ - yes shannon, it is law here
rufrider - i think we get the picture dave
Jen/NJ2MD - Lesson plans for grieving students? Tell me more!
Dave - Final quiz items - Policies for replacing a teacher who dies? Establishing and staffing a crisis room? Counseling procedures for the crisis room? An annual review of policies and procedures? Just some food for thought!
Dr. Doolittle - I had never even thought of so many crisis that could happen in a school!
Janice/2/IL - I wish we would of had lesson plans for our grieving students. We had a little girl die during school hours from an allergic reaction.
meeha/ece/tx - So, is your 'program' affordable for individual teachers? Is ther a way to purchase the manual without the videos, etc...
Dr. Joel - Kathleen, the information is partly included through Balance Group. Further information can be obtained from them or through peakperformance@worldnet.att.net. Additionally, I have a book "Natrual Prozac" available in major bookstroes that addresses depression and brain chemistry
rufrider - shouldn't a child be counseled privately by a guidance counselor or school phych?
Sea/2 - oh janice! so sorry
judith - I was amazed and impressed at how well Thurston High handled the situation. I was also impressed with the city of Springfield and it's response.
Dave - Jen - We want to make sure that students acknowledge the death, allow them to express their feelings, and allow them an outlet for their desire to help. Specific plans for each are in the manuals
Dr. Joel - Janice, we have a curriclum on grief that is helpful in these type of situations
Sea/2 - i think the brain chemistry stuff is fascinating...thanks for sharing it, Dr. Joel
shannon - what about young- elementary age? Dr. Joel- do you have any info?
Dr. Joel - rufrider each child is different, during the crises the students need support, those that are predisposed to additional problems can be referred for further counsleing. we address how to make a referral and make sure you have a ready referral in the manual
Kathleen. - Joel and Dave, meet Tony Bott the co-creator (with Bob) of Teachers.Net, Tony, Joel and Dave :-)
Sea/2 - shannon, i think in younger elementary it surely supports giving kids a little "free" recess time...makes me feel better to see them unwind, too!
judith - Dr. Joel, I'd like to get back to this being predisposed to violence. It seems to me that children are much more violent today then in my day. Is this true and if so why?
Dr. Joel - Sea, thanks, i've been doing it for 20 years and get excited every day with the new technology
Dave - Jen - we lost our message to you, here it is again. We let them acknowledge the death, express their feelings, and offer an outlet for their desire to help. Specific plans are included in the manual.
Anna/Aust - Also really enjoying this from Downunder!
Dr. Joel - Shannon, what info are you looking for
Doodah - Dr. Joel and Dave, how long have your materials been available to schools?
Sea/2 - Dr. Joel, i've been teaching for 24...and just now learning about it! (I'll look for your book.)
sue - dr. joel, I teach 4 year olds in a depressed area, I am seeing more and more seriously violent children who have witnessed deaths, fights and gang warfare in their short lives. Does you program offer suggestions on how to help overcome these obstacles and decrease violence?
Dave - Jen - It works so well when you are planned for it ahead of time. It works with students grieving from losing parents, siblings, friends.
Dr. Joel - Judith, it appears that low serotonin is a dominate genetic trait and that our society is getting increasing more adolescents with low serotonin
Kathleen. - Folks, following this discussion, you might click on that nice graphic in the left frame and explore the information available about the Crises Response Planning Program that is available for purchase for your school systems
Dave - Doodah - materials 2 years, i have taught this for 10 years.
rufrider - not necessarily sea, our district does not condone free recess time
Janice - The problem with this little girl dying was that the mother complained before that of sick building syndrome. The principal treated her like she was a hypochondriac! Then her girl dies!
shannon - Dr J- info concerning what to do about elem. SBH students stuck in DH setting
Dr. Joel - sue, contact Balance Group and my office, RObertson Institute has materials for elementary kids. The survey we use with them requires a teachers, parents and one other adult that knows the child to complete the survey to get an accurate view
Mountaineer - So, Dr Joel, how can we as teachers increase seratonin in our students?
Sea/2 - rufrider, not even 10 min. after lunch for K-3?
Tony B/CA - yes, judith, I was thinking of the same issue. Predisposition to violence - how can elementary school teachers, say grade 5/6, most effectively address the issue in class?
meeha/ece/tx - So ... how much of this behavior is neurochemical and how much is 'environmentally taught"?
Sea/2 - oh janice!
judith - Dr. Joel why is this happening. why would seratonian levels be going down?
sue - will do dr joel, thanks.
Sea/2 - mountaineer...and in teachers too!!! (increase our levels!!)
judith - tony, good question.
Dr. Joel - Tony, each child is different. we are looking at activities such as "getting ready to learn" for these kids. When we know a child's specific issues we use diet, activity, learning techniques and occassionally medication to enhance serotonin
Kathleen. - and, to follow up Tony's question, should we teach lessons or is it more designing an environment??
rufrider - sea as teachers we just take it, but it's not really condoned
sue - judith, if serotonin requires nurturing and there is a lack of nurturing there will be a lower level of sertonin-- am I correct dr joel?
Sea/2 - meeha, good question...more tv violence today?
Dave - Quiztime Again - How many of you would replace a teacher who dies with a substitute the very next morning?
hegumbe - Dave, do schools usually have a crisis plan/program? I don't think I have ever seen one for any of our schools.
Sea/2 - Dr. Joel...which meds...prozac?
judith - you are so right dr. Joel so what's the rememdy. Sneak seratonin into their bribe candy
Kathleen. - Dave, what is the alternative to the sub?
Dr. Doolittle - What is the alternative Dave?
Jen/NJ2MD - Dave, ohmigosh, that's a toughie!
Dr. Joel - Judith, I believe that constant brain stimulation such as what we get with violent movies, constant activities and video games cause an increase in dopamine which creates a rebound decrease in serotoin. Since we don't have the slower pace any longer we will probably continue to see this happen
Dave - Quiz answer - the proper method is to put a familiar face (everyone loves the gym teacher) for a couple weekes and phase in the new teacher.
sue - I would not Dave.
Sea/2 - too bad, rufrider! show them this chat print out!
Dave - hegumbe - most don't, they normally fly by the seat of their pants and make mistakes
JJ - Dave, tough question! We had a teacher who passed away over the summer. Didn't have a plan for anything. It really affected kids and staff!
Mary K&1 - Are there any early intervention steps that can be taken? ages 5 and 6
Dr. Joel - Sue, yes that is certainly part of it. A child's brain is developing the first 12 years. when it isn't nutured the child developos thoughts that decrease serotoin levels. Apparently, what we detemine as normal levels at that age stick with us as adults
Dave - hegumbe - the other easy out for most schools is outside counselors that we have found the students will not open up to.
sue - ok dave here's another question-- it was a rough year for me. A beloved teacher assistant for the 4's was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given 3 months to live. What would you have told the students?
Sea/2 - that would be better, dave! (but who teaches p.e.?)
Jimmie/TX - Get a sub for the PE teacher.
judith - sue personally I'd tell them the truth. death is part of life i guess i would talk to the students to find ways to celebrate the teachers life
Dr. Joel - SUe, prozac is only one way to increase serotoin, many activities, diets and other learning techniques can be helpful to all but the most severe cases. Prozac, Zoloft, etc. may be a jump start in some cases, but not most.
rufrider - i think as teachers, we just know sometimes who is predisposed to violence, but i would like to know what to do when the day actually comes that i am confronted by a child with a gun, or has one on another kid
Dave - sue - be honest and truthful and give them an opportunity to express how they feel, even to the ill teacher. Encourage dialogue between the students and the ill teacher.
Dave - Jimmie - thank you, 100% correct
Dr. Doolittle - Here's a personal one after Sue's. Last summer my son's assistant preschool teacher died of a brain anurysm. He was not in school during the summer so I did not take him to the funeral - should I have?
Sea/2 - i wonder...but imagine it might be true...that certain kinds (types) of music can increase the good chemical stimulation...and that certain kinds of music can increase the depo..(sp).. chemicals...hmmmm
judith - dr. Joel, are drs. starting to test for seratonin levels in children.
Sea/2 - diet...like chocolate? just read somewhere it has some enhancers...
rufrider - sue, we had a teacher diagnosed as terminal, the kids all wrote to her weekly, after her death they create a butterfly garden in her memory
Dave - Sue - saw a recent 20/20 with an identical situation, they walked with the teacher right through her final days. Extremely powerful story.
Dr. Joel - Rufrider, unfortunately there is no formula. However, using methods of calming down, by giving them various options we can often defuse the issues
sue - Good Dave we were on track. She told them she wasn't feeling well and had to stay home and told each of them goodbye. She's in the last stages of hospice care now and the kids have sent her cards.
hegumbe - Dave, you said that it is best to have the crisi handled by people the students know. Who should be on the team?
Sea/2 - that's beautiful, rufrider
judith - dr. doolittle, I think yes. This society only makes death something in video games and tv and movies. It is real and it needs to be made real. Maybe kids wouldn't kill as easily.
JJ - Dr. Joel, what are some types of learning techniques we should be doing?
Sea/2 - oh sue...it makes me want to cry
sue - sea-- I workedin psyche for several years, music did play a critical role in the behavior mood of the patientson the closed wing.
Dr. Joel - Judith, yes we have about 500 clinicians affiliated with us that do that. Technically the earlier we get involved the more likely we will have adults with healthy lives
Dave - Dr. Doolittle - simply stated - if your son wanted to go, then yes. DO NOT force him to go.
Sea/2 - i know music affects me, sue
Dr. Joel - hegumbe, the superindentent, favorite teacher, counselor, even janitoral staff if the students know them can be valuable additions
Mountaineer - I heard Mozart is good for the kids to listen to
judith - dr. joel, what changes have they seen in chidlren that are into guns, bombs, etc that have been perscribed seratonin
Dave - rufrider and all - be careful about planting trees, flowers, they tend to die or be destroyed which leaves a bitter taste.
Dr. Joel - sue music does effect brain chemistry. Smashing pumpkins increases dopamine while It's Your Love would increase serotonin
Kathleen. - Dave, is peer counseling part of your program?
Dr. Doolittle - I didn't even make it available as an option, I told him about the death and we talked about it. The school planted a beautiful tree on the grounds with a plaque but we did not go to the funeral.
Dr. Joel - JJ learning techniques need to be tailored for the specific child.
Kathleen. - Dave, that's an interesting point, because often, something living is used as a memorial
Dave - Kathleen - not at this level, it takes too many hours of training for the younger age groups.
rufrider - yes, but with proper care and nurturing, they only die as the natural circle of life
Dr. Joel - judith children that truly have low serotoin show less violence when prescribed antidepressants that increase serotonin
JJ - Dr. Joel, individualized teaching?
hegumbe - Dr. Joel, should we include outside counselors as part of the team? How can the janitor be included?
judith - why antidepressants? Kip was on those and it didn't do any good. Granted he had been off when he committed the murders but he was still into guns and bombs.
Kathleen. - Dr. Joel, what would a teacher watch for as the first warning sign (potentially violent behavior)?
Dave - hegumbe - yes, they are valuable as advisors to the team, and we definitely use them for referrals after the crisis has past.
Dr. Doolittle - Rufrider...what about tragedies like anurysms and cancer and shootings and traffic accidents...
judith - dathleen - one of the early signs and Kip did this too, is violent treatment of animals and children who are younger than them
Dr. Joel - judith, kip probably didn't have the chemical imbalance that would work with antidepressants
rufrider - i was referring to plants Dr.
meeha/ece/tx - Letting children talk, reading age appropriate literature, validating feelings and such are the behaviors of all adults supporting children in times of crisis?
Kathleen. - But, a teacher might not have the opportunity to know of those behaviors, how might it be manifested in the classroom?
rufrider - tragedies do happen, and we have to get us as well as the kids through it
Dr. Joel - Kathleen, teachers can watch for compulsivity, poor problem resolution skills and anger as a predispostion to violence
Mary K&1 - Is there such a thing as Crisis Prevention?
Dave - meeha - Amen, what you said is great.
judith - i DONT' KNOW. All this violence with kids. I mean as a sub I even see it with kinders. It's frighting to be a teacher right now.
JJ - Dr. Joel, which one of your books would you suggest for reading up on chemical imbalance?
sue - kathleen- one of the signs I am seeing more and more of is uncontrolled anger out of proportion to the preceding incident. It's sad to say one of my former students who is now 5 showed the warning signs last year but didn't "test" violent. She attacked the K teacher this year with a chair.
Dave - Mary - tragedies will occur, we help in suicide prevention, but tragedies like the recent ones in Oregon are unpredictable.
judith - sue this is what I'm saying. They are kinders and violent and unsocialble.
Kathleen. - sue, what "test" was used in an effort to determine "violent"?
rufrider - are they really unpredictable or do we just not take the "signs" seriously enough
Dave - Mary - we also need to do more work in the area of conflict resolution.
Jen/NJ2MD - Don't we predestin children with all this labeling?!?
Dr. Joel - JJ, "Natural PRozac" talks about depression and brain chemistry and "Peak Performance Living" talks about improving an reasonably health brain chemical. BOth are available in bookstores or give me a call if you can't find it.
Jimmie/TX - sue, I see a lot of that uncontrolled anger that is greatly out of proportion to the preceding incident. Not only with children, either.
rufrider - or not add them together
Mountaineer - I had a child this past year that didn't know how to make friends and blew up at the slightest problem - is he at risk?
sue - I think it's due to lack of nurturing which leads to the chemical problems judith. that coupled with a violent environment is hard to counteract
Dave - rufrider - we help you identify the signs - however we understand teachers deal with so many students it is easy to not notice the signs.
Kathleen. - So, Dave, the goal of your program lies more in dealing with the aftermath of crises?
meeha/ece/tx - In my classroom one of our 'regular' activities includes how to tell someone else if their behavior or activity is bothering them -- helping children learn to express their feelings acceptably and accurately has got to help, too!
Dr. Doolittle - Dave and Joel...is there such a thing as teaching nuturing? I have a classroom full of animals to try to precipitate nurturing but I always have a few students who think it's fun to be cruel to the animals!
Dr. Joel - kathleen, there are numerous studies, each using different definitions of violence which leads to some problems in interpretation. Good point.
Tony B/CA - sorry I am in and out here, I am in a lecture right now - but another question: Is medication over used? Thinking specifically about Ritalin... (doctors?)
sue - kathleen, she was seen by a social worker in a one on one situation and given a series of activities designed to frustrate her.
Dr. Joel - Jen, actually i don't believe in labeling children only fixing the issue
Dave - Kathleen - no 1/3 of the program deals with pre-crisis, 1/3 with the crisis, and 1/3 with the aftermath.
Kathleen. - Dave or Joel, would you describe what the program consists of in terms of materials?
hegumbe - Dave or Dr. Joel, seems to be a lot of crises happening with middle school children. Is your plan specific to a school level (elem, middle, sr. high)?
rufrider - our school is going to go through special training next year as part of dealing with those really volatile kids, as well as other behaviors that are more serious then they used to be
Dr. Joel - Dr. Doolittle, Yes definately. In a recent study we completed with 9 kids who were to be prescribed medication, we approached them with a learning, etc. approach and 8 just graduated with average grades from 8th grad
Mary K&1 - I've been teaching for 29 years - first grade and Kindergarten, - it's not that hard to see the kids that are headed for big trouble - there's got to be a way to turn things around - violent behavior shows it's buds early
Tony B/CA - good point, Dr. Joel - I agree.
Dave - Crises Response Planning Kit includes: In-Service Training video series, Training Facilitator's Guide, Procedure Manual, In-Service Training Workbook.
Dr. Joel - hegumbe we do work with all age groups with specific plans for specific ages
rufrider - well said mary K
Dave - Kathleen - I also forgot about the Implementation Guide
Kathleen. - Dave, how much time does it take a staff to use the materals in the program (hours)?
Jen/NJ2MD - Wouldn't smaller class sizes help teachers become better able to reach students individually?
hegumbe - Dave, what is actually covered in your program?
Mountaineer - We do Quest in our schools - what do you thinik about that program?
Tony B/CA - right Mary K&1 - perhaps multi-year team teaching assignments in elementary schools could help some of these kids. I had that experience -
Dr. Joel - Tony, part of the research that has been done has shown that medication as a first resort not only sets the child up for failure, but is less effective than parenteral involvement. Parenteral involvement often is lacking, partly because of lack of knowledge
Dave - Kathleen - 6 hours initial training, ongoing review of crises plan.
rufrider - i think most teachers try to nurture and diffuse, but often there's no reiforcement at home, then what?
Dr. Doolittle - Good point Jen! When I am dealing with a class of 35 there is no way I can sit down and teach a kid how to interact with one of our pets!
AngelJJ/TX - Jen that is a possibilty but in reality? We have to look for other effective methods.
Kathleen. - Dave, that sounds do-able, 6 hours well invested..
Jen/NJ2MD - Tony-Good call on teaming; definitely helps to learn about stud'ts in diff settings.
Dr. Joel - rufrider, help is less effective, we need parenteral involvement for the greatest success
Tony B/CA - Jen, I had 43 students in an urban school (low-income, "at-risk") - size wasn't the issue, nurturance and consistency were...
Kathleen. - Dave, is it group training, could individuals use the program then apply it within their school?
hegumbe - Sounds like a good program. Thanks guys and good luck.
Tony B/CA - Yes, Dr. Joel, glad to hear my intuition is validated by research ;)
rufrider - We use problem solving and social skills training like teaching steps to making good choices on specific behaviors
Dave - Hegumbe - Development of the crises team, policies for media, family, returning property; roles of the crisis team members and staff; suicide prevention and assessment; specific procedures for the crises time; proper grief; and more
AngelJJ/TX - Our school is doing a school wide 2 day workshop on Cooperative Discipline in August. Have you heard of this approach Dr. Joel?
rufrider - we call it "Stop and Think"
Mountaineer - I think lack of parent involvement is a lot of the problem
Kathleen. - hugumbe, please check out the info available by clicking on the graphic in the left frame..share it at school
sue - dr joel, in my area it's the parents who are the problem most of the time. the bigpush is for "crazy money", SSI checks and they are encouraging children with problems to act out in class. I hate to sound negative but we have a real problem with this. Sometimes the medication is the only thing keeping the kids under control Dr. Joel - Dr. Doolittle, we are looking at some pilot programs that can help us accomplish individual support, within a larger group. I know that sounds strange, but there are some great ideas that I feel can work. I am not an educator and need people like you to add your expertise to our data
Anna/Aust - Mary: Often they are the buds from the tree of the parent .
Dr. Doolittle - Thanks Dave and Joel...good night!
Dave - Mountaineer - well said
Dr. Joel - angel, yes, it can be great with the right instructors. We don't yet know the overall response, but in theory it looks good
Kathleen. - sue, they may apper to be in control until the big outburst
AngelJJ/TX - Thankyou Dr. Joel. I am interested in seeing how effective it will be for us.
Dr. Doolittle - Thanks Dave and Joel...good night!
Jen/NJ2MD - Blaming the parents is a dead end street, what can we do as educators to advocate for students' needs?
Dr. Joel - sue, i hear you and i know that is a major issue. often we can do the best we can, then turn to medication. my concern is we prescribe out of ignorace of the problem
sue - kathleen "in control" is a relative term, they still act out under medication
Dave - Everyone - additional information on the details can be found at http://www.bgpub.com
AngelJJ/TX - Jen I agree because we can encourage parents to become active, but we cant make them.
Tony B/CA - sue, is that form of control helping those students learn? Are there some other techniques, doctors?
Dave - Everyone - a ten minute overview video is available for FREE by contacting Balance Group Publishers ? P.O. Box 3266 ? Kalamazoo ? MI ? 49003-3266 ? (616)349-1259 ? fax (616)349-5480
sue - I agree Jenn but sometimes the parents need to be addresses as an advocate FOR the children.
Dr. Joel - jen, educators can help, they have major effects on kids. by understanding more of the causes it will be easier to make a difference
Ginn/Oregon - It's the PHYSICIANS who are doing the prescribing....and some with more training and sentivity to these issues
AngelJJ/TX - As educators we need to find solutions that will work with or without parental help.
sue - tony--medication is only part of the prgram used byt the ed/bd teachers and staff
Ginn/Oregon - What would help make the difference in many Oregon schools I know is having enough money to hire counselors and adequate staff
Dr. Joel - Ginn, physicians and parents both often take the easy way out. i'm in total agreement. one of my main purposes in publishing and research is to educate peers
rufrider - yes, ginn, the family physician because the mother requests it, often times because a teacher has told them to, no testing, no diagnostic whatsoever
Mountaineer - Aren't kids on meds supposed to be going for therapy with their families?
Kathleen. - bgpub, is that Bob of bal group? :-)
Tony B/CA - Angel, perhaps we need to seek more innovative ways to include parents - educate them better about their responsibilities to their children's education
bgpub - Been watching this forum with interest. Great dialogue. Just wanted to say that we are publishing the Crises Response Program because it is the best program we have ever seen in this area. The authors are leading edge. Enough said--bye
Dave - Kathleen - yes that is
Dr. Joel - mountaineer, that's not a requirement, but it is certaily essential if you want change
AngelJJ/TX - Tony yes there are programs in place, and some parents DO come but not the majority..
sue - ginn, we have 2 full time counselors for our school of 650 students, a social skills group and peer counseling
Dave - Crises Response Planning Kit includes: In-Service Training video series, Training Facilitator's Guide, Procedure Manual, In-Service Training Workbook.
Mountaineer - You just cannot MAKE parents come
AngelJJ/TX - I feel that including parents whenever possible is important? But I also feel we as educators need to find ways to teach our students about self discipline and control, because so many wont get it from home. It has to come from within.
Dave - Thank you everyone for your interest, please direct all questions to the publisher who will forward on to us. bgpub@bgpub.com
rufrider - with all the busing going on, parents often can't come, it's too far away Kathleen. - Dave and Joel, you promised us an hour of your time and we deeply appreciate that.
Mountaineer - Angel - you are on target with my feelings tonight
meeha/ece/tx - We cannot MAKE them come, but we CAN quietly educate and gently encourage their participation!
AngelJJ/TX - As a parent who has a child on meds for ADHD I am always looking and trying other methods to help him control is hyperactivity.
Dr. Joel - angel, parenteral involvement is the most effective way to make a difference in a kids life. i believe most parents don't know what to do and some just are too unstable to help
Tony B/CA - let's find more opportunities to go to the parents, rufrider..
Ginn/Oregon - At my school we have shared a counselor with three other buildings.........not you tell me DO YOU THINK THAT WORKS FOR HIGH NEED STUDENTS ? Of course not, it becomes a STATE issue also because ITS the ALMIGHTY dollar needed to fund programs
sue - I agree Angel and we do work with the students and are aware of the family situations. We do educate them thru parent workshops and individual sessions
Tony B/CA - true, Ginn, staffing limitations in counseling are dramatic in San Diego and Los Angeles too
Jimmie/TX - Dave and Dr. Joel, although I was very quiet, I got every word. Thank you so much for giving your time to us here this evening. I'll be sure to share this information at my school.
AngelJJ/TX - I recently became certified in a course for Non-violent Crisis Intervention Techniques. Very insightful.
Dave - Sue - Final thought - our prayers are with you and the children.
Dave - Jimmie - thanks for your attention
Tony B/CA - Dr. Joel, you've been a super help. Thank you for your involvement and support
Dr. Joel - Tony and Ginn, staffing and money are always major issues and prevent many effective programs for being initiated. It is sad but ture
AngelJJ/TX - Dr. Joel, do you feel that some of the more homeopathic remedies might be possible for certain cases? Would they be worth trying?
Ginn/Oregon - The reality is I know kids today who are TROUBLED, some walking around seemingly ready to burst with anger, and am I doing all I can ? As educators we need resources .
Tony B/CA - Dave, y tu.
Dr. Joel - Tony and others, Write me with questions and give me time and I'll answer any questions in time
Anna/Aust - Yes Tony : Sometimes even a phone can help open the door . Sadly once a child enters the teenage years of education parents tend to lose the opportunities to communicate with the teachers ,
sue - ginn, all we can do is deal with them where they are,love them and try to get them the help they need
Dr. Joel - angel, certain homeopathic remedies have possibilities. The biggest issue is finding out what is broke before we try to fix it
Tony B/CA - Thank you Dr. Joel
Dr. Joel - Folks, thanks so much for your interest, I gotta run
Kathleen. - Joel, Dave, thank you for a very inforamtive session!
Dave - Kathleen - thanks for hosting, you too BGPUB
Kathleen. - I'll be in touch, Joel and Dave, thanks VERY much!
Kathleen. - Yes, thank you to bgpub :-)...I feel your presence!
Tony B/CA - Thank you Kathleen - you're wonderful. You make these wonderful activities available to help so many teachers ;) Dr. Joel and Dave - thank you!!
Ginn/Oregon - Every step we take to help is a good thing ~
Bob R/CA - Thanks guys for your time and counsel into this very significant area. Tony B/CA - Thank you all