Teachers.Net Focus Session - Dealing with disruptive students in the classroom

Teachers.Net Focus Session
Wednesday, February 3, 1999
Dealing With Disruptive Students in the Classroom
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In Education

Kathleen - Welcome! This is a meeting for discussion about dealing with disruptive students in the classroom
Kathleen - Let's agree to keep focused upon solutions rather than using our time tonight to place blame for disruptive behavior..
Kathleen - Let's start with this: Do you feel that your training prepared you well to manage behavior?
amy/oh - not at all
Chris/MD/*1* - No, but I started a long time ago.
jpm/ct - i flip back and forth on this kathleen i think maybe i was trained well for elementary but not preschool
amy/oh - I don't think you can realistically get the training unless you do it for an extended amount of time
~§Jude§~ - only my PIC training...the rest was trial error and nature
sarahW/2/TX - Not at all
amy/oh - being a parent trained me more than any classes
darthy/AL/RR - Kath: I've just finished my 3rd degree = NO, I was not given help for dealing with disruptive students
Kathleen - Jude, PIC?
jpm/ct - sometimes i feel like it is all instinct and then other times i can hear my proffesors in the back of my mind telling me what to do
B-Ga. - I think on the job training is the best kind. In the Schools of Education, they are looking at ideal situations and they do not mention disruptive students very often.
darthy/AL/RR - jmp, I can't hear any of my professors helping me
~§Jude§~ - PIC- protective intervention...how to safely restrain a student
Kathleen - I agree that many of us were given no training in behavior manangement/classroom management, so trial and error or seeking out training become necessary
amy/oh - it's so frustrating when I realize the amount of time a disruptive student takes from the other children
darthy/AL/RR - Good answer B-Ga
sarahW/2/TX - B--I'll agree there
Chris/MD/*1* - I agree with that Kathleen.
jpm/ct - when i hear them i feel very thankful
Kathleen - jpm, I'm guessing that early childhood teachers are better prepared by coursework for managing behavior because it is so integral (the whole child)
B-Ga. - Being a parent helped me to understand the children better.
amy/oh - b-ga I agree
SC - In college I had an entire class on behavior management. I think they should mandate that type of course for all.
darthy/AL/RR - Perhaps so, Kath, but all need the help
Kathleen - Maybe we can help each other explore how to deal with disruptions before having to use the PIC meansures Jude can teach us about at our next level session ;-)
B-Ga. - SC, did that class help you in the actual classroom?
jpm/ct - kathleen yes i guess so, but i had one kid tell me he was going to bash my teeth in that was never discussed
Chris/MD/*1* - you are prepared for the normal child if there is such a child. The child or children that have extreme behaviors are where I fall down.
amy/oh - sc - you're right. I've gotten some terrific tips from conferences I've attended
darthy/AL/RR - I've always felt that I was a much better teacher after having my sons - one was (is) ADD
Kathleen - Can anyone offer what might be the first and most important measure to take when a child is disruptive?
SC - B-Ga, yes it actually did. It talked about all types of things. theory to practical application
jpm/ct - it helped me a little b ga i but i think it would have been easier to take this class while i was teaching not still in school
darthy/AL/RR - My very first try is "EXcuse me, it's my turn now"
amy/oh - kath- we need to find out why - is he bored, not feeling well, needing attention, confused?
Kathleen - Or should something happen before that?
Kathleen - Let's talk about this theory: From http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~utkcdl/management.html : "...a stimulating, balanced, age-appropriate learning environment; an atmosphere of mutual respect and caring; and positive teacher attitudes and expectations will encourage cooperation and prevent most behavior problems. " [referrring to young children]
SC - Kat, remaining calm and counting to a thousand if necessary!!!
B-Ga. - Many of the disruptive kids are such because of their home environment, some are truly mentally ill, but most are acting out in the only way they know how. They are frightened children and feel that no one cares about them.
~§Jude§~ - i guess i should add i work with incarcerated and behaviorally disordered adolescents, so my perception is a little different
Chris/MD/*1* - i agree with that statement. Most of the time it is true.
amy/oh - kath - I have to agree with that as long as we aren't talking about an add or adhd child that needs medication and isn't getting it
jpm/ct - i have one that will just flip out and just refuse to do anything even over the littlest thing like not playing in housekeeping, i usually give her a hug and tell her what she needs to do and hug her again and then she is back on track but am confused
Kathleen - I don't mean to divert the discussion away from tactics after the fact, but prevention IS key..But let's move on to how to deal with the child who disrupts in a well planned, dev. appropriate setting.
darthy/AL/RR - We are now instructed to difuse the situation, get them on the bus for home, no matter what
jpm/ct - as to if it is really working i had to do it today for the first time in 2 weeks but it is hard to stop everything
Chris/MD/*1* - You need to stay calm. Sometimes it helps to back off. Offer another place to go so that the child can calm down.
darthy/AL/RR - And, after a pending law suit in my district, we are instructed to "NOT interfere" in a spec. ed. situation unless specifically asked
Kathleen - "Classroom Management Links" site: http://picce.uno.edu/SS/homePages/CManage.html hosted by Univ. of New Orleans
jpm/ct - so does anyone have any imput on what i do to help this child
amy/oh - my classroom isn't the traditional room with rows of seats and everyone on the same page. We work at individual levels of achievement. It seems to cut down on bahaviour problems
darthy/AL/RR - jpm, What have you tried?
Shar - I have a non-verbal learning disabled child in my 7th grade Spanish class that is rapidly loosing interest in the class. He is always calling attention to himself.
Kathleen - jpm, I think your tactic of firm but warm persistence is the way to go for now
~§Jude§~ - Chris you are absolutely right!
B-Ga. - Has this child been referred to the counselor ?/jpm
darthy/AL/RR - amy, the same in my classroom, but still get an occasional occurance
~§Jude§~ - Sher- wouldnt it seem like bad planning to put a non-verbal child in a foreign language class?
darthy/AL/RR - Exactly, Jude
jpm/ct - well for the girl that totally shuts down she is 3 in a class of late fours and early 5's so i give her a hug, then tell her what she needs to ( go to her cot, close her eyes, take a nap) then i give her another hug and send her on her way
Chris/MD/*1* - You also need to protect the child that is out of control as well as the rest of the children.
amy/oh - darthy -what seems to be happening now is that I am getting the "behavior problems" because I can handle it. How long can that go on?
Kathleen - a non-verbal, learning disabled 7th grader, losing interest and calling attention to himself..Shar, what kinds of behaviors? silly or aggressive, abusive. REALLY non-verbal?
jpm/ct - no bga she is so young she just turned 3 in Nov i think she feels a little overwhelmed
Peach/ATL - Amy - I hear you talking! the same happens to me.
amy/oh - shar - I agree with jude - why did that happen?
sarahW/2/TX - I am about to get a child in my room tomorrow from another teacher in the building. I want to get off on the right foot with this kid, but understand he is "difficult." suggestions
jpm/ct - today i did that for her and she went to cot and fell asleep right away it always works
darthy/AL/RR - amy, until you are dead - I've had that happen to me
Oceanspray - I think it's first important to determine what needs the child is fulfilling by being disruptive
jpm/ct - but she is as disruptive as the boy who hits every 10 mins
~§Jude§~ - sarah..meet him outside the room first, maybe take a walk. Chances are he will go on first impressions
Shar - I was just wondering what kind of techniques would be useful for getting a non-verbal learning disabled child interested in taking part in my Spanish class in 7th grade. He is always calling attention to hiimself.
Kathleen - How do we determine the underlying needs?
Oceanspray - Some children are disruptive in order to get attention; others are disruptive in order to gain power, etc.
jpm/ct - well if this girl wants attention then isn't she lacking something at home
amy/oh - peach - hi there - I have been given the majority of all problems - learning and behavior - I think parents will be leary to put their "Normal kids" in there is it persists
Peach/ATL - Sarah - one teachers "difficult" is another teacher's star student...
darthy/AL/RR - jmp, why are you keeping a child who hits in your classroom???
gato - Sarah, I always get the difficult ones. You must be able to handle the student or you wouldn't have gotten him. Am I right. Basically, you have good control?
amy/oh - darthy - great - it may be sooner than later at this rate
darthy/AL/RR - Shar, you know the OLD standby, give him a responsibility so he will feel important
Peach/ATL - Amy - you sound like you have good control, too, and high expectations.
jpm/ct - good question because i have no idea really was going to try and explain it to you but i cant
darthy/AL/RR - amy, RIGHT on your first try
~§Jude§~ - Shar- how non-verbal? If it selective maybe the kid would like communicating in Spanish..kinda like a code?
Oceanspray - I think many times we accidentally reinforce disruptive behavior by attending to it...have you tried selective ignoring?
sarahW/2/TX - Peach-- well, I can hope.
Shar - I am so sorry, why did what happen?
Peach/ATL - Sarah - what grade level, and do you why he's label difficult?
darthy/AL/RR - Good response, Oceanspray
Chris/MD/*1* - There is only so much a classroom teacher can do. She/He needs the support of others. Counselor, social worker, psychologist, parent, and any other that can help.
sarahW/2/TX - Thanks for the vote of confidence gato-- I think it was a matter of two teachers to pick from and they picked my name from the hat!
B-Ga. - Once the administration knows you can handle disruptive students, then you are going to be given them as long as you teach in that school. My philosophy is to be firm, fair and friendly. Never threaten. Always say what you expect and mean what you say. The students will catch on to what is expected. If that does not work, then the student should be sent for counseling to determine if their is a psychological reason for the behavior or if it is just a attention technique.
Kathleen - Oceanspray, that is also referred to as "extinguishing"...works well in many cases. Certainly worth trying first (assuming groundrules have been explained earlier)
~§Jude§~ - know your subject...selective ignoring will work, but some kids will enrage and enrage at put others at risk until they are attended to
darthy/AL/RR - Good, Chris, if you have capable counselor, etc
Peach/ATL - B-Ga - my sentiments, exactly!
amy/oh - bga good point
Kathleen - Here is a site has a number of interesting links, including sites that address teaching students ethics in an attempt to prevent or stop disruptive behavior: http://www.neat-schoolhouse.org/Office/Teacher/Classroom_Related/Classroom_Management.html . One site lists publications on the topic of classroom management.
gato - Some basic techniques that have worked for me: If I speak, I am teaching. If I speak, nobody else does. If a student speaks, I stop and say,"Pardon me, am I interrupting you?" I use signals when I want attention. More...
Peach/ATL - Jude - you're right, too. We have to know what will work best and every child is different. The only way we will know is by trial and erroe!!!
Oceanspray - Jude, my degree is in psychology...initially, there may be a backlash to extinguishing behavior because the student will try even HARDER to get your attention...but if you are consistent, ignoring is really a good strategy to deal with many types of disruption.
darthy/AL/RR - B-Ga is right on target, you may have the disruptive ones until you retire - or die, whichever comes first
Shar - I can understand if someone has learning problems, but I cannot understand why they have to call attention to themselves like this child that I have does. I have tried to ignore the bad behavior and reward the good, but he does not really become involved in the class, except to try and be disruptive.
Oceanspray - Usually, people reinforce the disruptive behavior so consistent ignoring on the part of the teacher is necessary over a period of time
Peach/ATL - I think, too the way things are handled depend on the age of the child
Chris/MD/*1* - gato, that works for those kids who are just trying. How do you handle a kid that screams, kicks out at the teacher or other students or a kid that tries to hurt others?
sarahW/2/TX - peach--I teach 2nd. I think the child has had a lot of trouble keeping on task and following directions. Disrupts by wandering, messing with others etc.
gato - I never argue with children. I never correct a child or embarrass him publically. I take him aside (they melt when face to face) When a student is being disruptive I use proximity. "Get in his face"
Kathleen - Peach has an interesting point. Should techniques for dealing with disruptive behavior differ according to the age of the child?
Peach/ATL - ooh Chris - that is a child that needs to go to the counselo'rs office,
~§Jude§~ - I did not mean to challenge you, but I know my kids and many will become physically dangerous- they are that out of control...BTW they were all in a reg setting too at one point. Basic beh mod tells us if we try the same thing and remain consistant most will eventuallly comply after a pd of intense testing...but that is not always the case, and cannot jeopardize the others safety
darthy/AL/RR - Chris, don
darthy/AL/RR - Chris, don't you have a district policy for kids who hurt others???
Oceanspray - Jude, I agree with you...safety must come first.
gato - Chris, that is not a normal child. I have to admit I do not know how to handle the unhealthy child.
Chris/MD/*1* - Peach, those are two children who see the counselor.
Peach/ATL - I mean, 5yr olds are just learning the expectiations while 5th graders should already know what is expected, behavioraly.
Kathleen - I like gato's concept of preserving the student's dignity by not doling out punishing words or actions in front of others. With older students, wouldn't putting them down in front of others cause an escalation of the problems?
Chris/MD/*1* - We have no policy. I am in a large urban school. We are overwhelmed with many different types of kids with problems.
hlh/ca - I agree with you Peach!!!
amy/oh - kath - excellent point - if you correct in front of everyone it humiliates or makes matters worse
Shar - Kathleen, what has been your experience with these kinds of children or anyone else, I would welcome your comments and suggestions. I kinid of like the idea of some added responsibility. But it is hard to think of what kind.
Kathleen - Chris, are you alone with the class or do you have an assistant, allowing you to take the hitter aside for warm hug (restraint)
darthy/AL/RR - Yes, Peach, but ALl ages will push the envelope
gato - Yes, Kathleen. With adolescents, losing face is disastrous. If the student takes you on and you fall into the trap, then he has to win in front of his peers. I am the adult, I am in control. To let a child get into a power struggle with me is disastrous.
Peach/ATL - Shar - they always say to give resposibilities to those disruptive ones...but what about those who always do what is expected? Shouldn't they have res, too?
hlh/ca - Preserving the student's dignity is a must. Public humiliation is not the answer.
Kathleen - Shar, I like to make that kind of child (if it is a power or control issue) the big-wig :-)Put him in charge of something.
Ði - Our ISD developed a new program this year for severely emotionally impaired students in the area..
Oceanspray - Peach, I agree...I think it's important to give all children as much responsibility as possible
Kathleen - Shar, since he is non-verbal, could he make up a daily or weekly class newsletter, reporting on the topics or projects, new vocab, etc ??
gato - I also think fairness and consistency is respected, at least by the older student. If he sees that everyone is treated equally, that once a rule is established it is maintained, they learn to respect the atmosphere that is conducive to learning.
amy/oh - I have jobs to do each day and everyone is responsible for something - it helps them have ownership of their environment -
Kathleen - Shar, if he were appointed editor and had to focus on the class in order to file his stories, he wouldn't have time to disrupt
Peach/ATL - gato- I agree. the best thing I can give my Kinders is consistency adn fairness.
Oceanspray - Another idea is to model the rules...construct situations in which you model appropriate behavior and children must demonstrate following the rules. Sometimes, disruptive children simply do not know how to behave correctly. And our first assumption as teachers should be that they just haven't been taught.
~§Jude§~ - i agree gato...kids know when teachers are fair and when they will be given a fair shot
darthy/AL/RR - I'm in Title I, Reading Recovery. Whenever I can I help out 1,2,3 teachers with a truly disruptive child and let one come to my room for computer time if they meet expectations in classroom
gato - I also model behavior. I try not to get "out of control" myself, though Lord knows, there are days..... I do not ask of them what I do not require of myself. For example, I give paper back on time. They are asked to have assignments on time; I model that action.
Kathleen - Oceanspray, good point. You could use role-playing
darthy/AL/RR - Modeling is very good, Oceanspray. Remember the "young" parents are not into teaching manners
Ði - darthy, that's positive reinforcement...bet it works pretty good!
~§Jude§~ - It has to be a team effort, sometimes letting a child cool down with another staff member is good. Oceanspray you are so correct, many of our kids truely have never been taught some things we expect all kids to know
darthy/AL/RR - Yes, Di, I've had some of our school's "WORST" problems sitting at my computers - then they don't want to go back
Peach/ATL - Do you think it is helpful to find out WHY the child might be disruptive?? Like home problems, friend problems,etc/
Oceanspray - Peach, definitely! The key to helping the child is to discover the underlying causes of the behavior
darthy/AL/RR - THat works in my school, Jude. SOmetimes a 5th graders has to go do work in a 2nd grade room, at a back table
sarahW/2/TX - I've noticed several of our problem children do very well in our computer lab.
gato - also,we have to ask ourselves if we are perfectly prepared and organized, and I say all of the time. If we are fidgeting around looking for things or trying to find a page, or insecure about the lesson we are teaching, students are bound to pick up on that and 'get casual" themselves.
Oceanspray - I work on the model that people aren't bad or evil just for the sake of being that way...that is extremely rare. Usually, they are attempting to fulfill some kind of need.
Ði - I think so, Peach! Some children unfortunately have to learn that there are two sets of rules....school and home!
amy/oh - each year our class sits down and makes the rules for the class. Of course we stick ato the basics, but they feel ownership of them and they are more apt to follow
Peach/ATL - Ocean - that takes so much time away from teaching - what is the answer? always end hin tothe counselor?
darthy/AL/RR - sarah, the screen keeps them focused. WE DO NOT do games; real lessons
~§Jude§~ - the difficulty is when power struggles arise and teachers feel that they shouldn't let a kid out of thier room until the kid can behave in thier room..power struggles are bad
Kathleen - Shar, his reports could be copied to send home to parents, or to post on a school bulletin board, or simply for the other students.
Shar - What kinds of jobs could I come up with in a 7th grade Spanish class?
Peach/ATL - gato - I'm with you. We need to be as organized as possible with NO down time,...or very little, anyway.
hlh/ca - Sarah...you're right on...computers are a great friend to some of these kids.
darthy/AL/RR - Then again, gato, there are "those" days when everything doesn't flow, and they need to learn about life
Oceanspray - Usually, power struggles arise in classes with an authoritarian atmosphere (but not always). A democratic (authoritative) class in which children are offered constructive activities that pertain to their lives and in which we let go and not feel like we have to control everything is best
Ði - Ocean, some students probably need a team approach,....counselor, teacher, social worker, etc....
Sue/TX/Sub - Wish that I had a good technique, but I'm afraid that I'm looking for ideas myself.
gato - Yes, darthy. You are right, of course. I have found that my best days are those where I ama thoroughly and securely prepared, however.
~§Jude§~ - shar, could he label things in spanish? For ex: the table etc...walk around and stick notecards with the translation written on it on them?
Peach/ATL - Sue - I don't hink any one tecknique will work with every child.
darthy/AL/RR - SHar, I've tried things like = turning up the heat, proping the door open, sharpening pencils. COunting ANYTHING for me
darthy/AL/RR - good idea, jude
Shar - Kathleen, I am very interested in finding out more about what kinds of stories this disruptive child could file in my class. Could you please clarify?
Kathleen - Shar, could you trust this student to run errands to the office? Maybe a break from the stress of class would be a help for him (if he is non-verbal, you can be sure he is tense)
Sue/TX/Sub - I had a 5th grade student today ask me to count to 20 for her while she held her breath. She said that she needed to compose herself.
gato - Kathleen, have you heard of the Fred Jones program? I taught that many years ago and wondered if it is still in vogue. It has many good techniques.
~§Jude§~ - oceanspray, they do arise in such classes, but unfortunetely often the individuals in control of those rooms dont tend to like suggestions...and I end up doing the cleanup
Kathleen - Shar, I was thinking of a newspaper story about each class..reporting on it as a journalist would
Jan - I have a student who is angry at me all the time. Mumbles about me, slams his desk lid, etc, and thinks I am terribly unfair to him. He told the kids (5th graders) today that I "look at him" too much.
Kathleen - gato, not familiar with the Fred Jones program...
darthy/AL/RR - SHar, do you laminate things, or make up game pieces?? Even if the cutting isn't perfect, it works with my 3rd graders
Oceanspray - Jan, how do you feel about that?
Shar - Jude, do you mean give this to him as a responsibility in the class?
darthy/AL/RR - Shar, your diary person!!!
Ði - Jan, could you sit down 1-1 with that student and make out "I need this from you" lists...one for you and one for him and go over it.
Kathleen - Fred Jones Positive Classroom Management site: http://www.fredjones.com/ offers publications and training (It appears)
~§Jude§~ - Jan...sounds like power. My suggestion is to find a way/time to meet with this kid outside of the class ( before..after..) the key is without an audience. He is clearly looking for a response from you if he does the mumbling thing.
gato - Jan, sounds like a student who would complain if you didn't look at him. Then he would say you are ignoring him.
darthy/AL/RR - Jan, can you get parents in? I've had even better luck with "grandparents"
~§Jude§~ - Shar...sure or offer it as an extra project.
Shar - Kathleen, do you mean to ask him to report on each of his classes as a journalist would and report that to the class as a presentation?
Jan - frustrated right now with the constant disruptions of noise, I really am not upset that he doesn't like me, just wish that he'd keep his mouth shut about it while the rest of us are trying to learn. The noise is the disruption. He talks and grumbles constantly
Oceanspray - Positive reinforcement and approval work best for elementary students. For the older students, it is important to make them see how what you're teaching them will benefit them in life.
Shar - Kathleen, do you mean to ask him to report on each of his classes as a journalist would and report that to the class as a presentation?
Kathleen - Most kids can be "disarmed" by a few minutes (periodically) of personal, genuine, caring attention
darthy/AL/RR - Jan, any consequences for him after 3 check marks??
~§Jude§~ - sometimes jan, just showereing with affection will work. Convince him you do like him...maybe he will warm up. Maybe he has they " I will hate you b4 you hate me attitude"
gato - So very true, Ocean, especially now with the threat of no social promotion looming over them. This is becoming a big deal in our district and in California.
darthy/AL/RR - We do have twice weekly detention hall for disruptive students
amy/oh - jan - I know what you mean - I have one too
Oceanspray - Kathleen, you hit the button!!! The best way that I have found to deal with behavior problems is to present yourself to them as a very warm, caring person who is interested in them...if a student likes you, that is perhaps behavior management plan
Kathleen - Shar, that too. I was thinking that he could just write up a news story about each of your Spanish classes of which he is a memeber. If he would read it to others, that would certainly be a bonus. But just assigning him the responsibility and acknoledging his worth could be helpful (and would help to keep him focused)
amy/oh - my little disruptor complains to his mom and she thinks I'm picking on him
Jan - I think this kid is abused, he is terribly angry, today he choked another student, I need to do more in consequences, but nothing seems to work that I've tried, both positive and negative reinforcement. Called mother tonight , she said send him to the principal
Kathleen - Detention Rooms are a pet peeve of mine...if a student is assigned regularly to a detention room, then it's not working!
darthy/AL/RR - Yeah, Shar, do you have a school newspaper?? Many of our students write for this paper
Shar - I do have a small activity table off to the side of my room, but it is very small, and the kids usually do not have much time to do any activities with it. Any suggestioons?
Peach/ATL - But ocean -not every child will like you....
Kathleen - What role should parents play in solving the problem of disruptive students?
gato - I have found that those students with whom I have been most firm are the ones who come back to visit and to thank me for making them learn. Sometimes a little growing up is all that it takes.
amy/oh - jan - do you have a guidance councilor that could help?
darthy/AL/RR - amy, have you tried video taping your classes, for a "project"
Ði - amy, have you talked to the student and mom at the same time?
Oceanspray - Jan, this sounds very stressful for you. This kid sounds like he fits into the third category of why children are disruptive: deep seated psychological issues in which they need to get you to try to hate them in order to confirm their feelings of inadequacy.
Jan - dead end on the guidance counselor
~§Jude§~ - Jan -reach out.. if he is abused he will prob snap at first, but really does need the affection. If you feel comfortable have a heart to heart with him over linch?
amy/oh - darthy - I tape for presentations, and I've been thinking about taping but I don't want toget into any taping problems
Oceanspray - Jan, this would best be handled by a school psychologist
Peach/ATL - Kathleen's right- if a child goes to detention, or whatever on a regular basis, then we've missed the boat!
Kathleen - Shar, ask the students what activities that table could be used for.
pandoras box - I think you need to sit down an talk to the kid and see if anything is wrong
darthy/AL/RR - amy, would it be a problem if you were taping as a project, to reshow the class
Oceanspray - Jan, have you tried talking to him?
Jan - we've seen the school psychologist, he, mom, and I, I asked him yesterday if he'd like to talk to him again, He said ,"No way"
gato - Kathleen, some of our students have absolutely no parenting. Of course, that makes things harder. Sometimes the only happy hours some students spend are those in school; I always keep this in mind and try not to add to their misery. Parents who are aware and supportive are, of course, an asset.
brock - Jan- some kids push away at first in order to see if we will still stay with them- sort of an attachment issue
amy/oh - i - yes, as a matter of fact I had the sister a couple of years ago so I know the mom quite well - we're friendly actually. This little guy is the baby and spoiled rotten. Mom can't see that he is a problem she says he's just "all boy" WEll I'm sorry b
Jan - talked till I'm blue in the face, Oceanspray
Ði - Jan, I still wonder if you couldn't sit down with this kid and tell him...I need_____from you so I can teach....what do you need from me? See what he tells you.
~§Jude§~ - Often my kids never want to talk to the school psych. they seem to feel more comfortable developing rapport with a teacher and then allowing that rapport to guide them to the psych
darthy/AL/RR - Jan, we have retired people come in to read to/with students. Could he have a mentor??
amy/oh - i - good idea
Oceanspray - Jan, you sound like a very loving and caring person.
Peach/ATL - Jan what is the next step in your district?
Jan - thanks Di, haven't tried that, maybe that will reach him
Shar - Kathleen you are right, sometimes, more and more, I try to give him caring personal attention, but I think the Spanish class now has a difficulty level that is going over his head, and he is frustrated over this, so he acts out for attention for a diversion. Although I heard that he is giving other teachers trouble also.
pandoras box - What if the child is try to fit in, so he/she will do anything they can do to achieve that
Oceanspray - Shar, have you tried giving him extra help?
brock - what are his strong areas Jan? can you incorporate them in some curriculum planning with him
darthy/AL/RR - amy, that's a bummer, BUT could you get her to picture him 5 yrs. from now. How could he function on the allpowerful little league as he is
Jan - I'm afraid we don't have a lot of follow through from either the principal or counselor, we have an at risk committee, but already been there
Oceanspray - Brock, that's a good suggestion.
Kathleen - Shar, it's important to stop the escalation of the problem.
Jan - he loves art and drawing, but refuses to go or cooperate in art class. He draws all the time, even during other classes
Ði - Jan, make sure you find positive things to say too....things you think make him unique...
gato - I often will tell a student that he does not have the right to keep another student from learning or me from teaching. I also tell them that the State of California does not pay me to be loved. (with a smile, of course) I tell my classes that I care very much about them and their education, but I am not there to be their friend. (I often find that frienships develop later. Count my godchildren!!!
darthy/AL/RR - Shar, often I've made my own cassette tapes to help students "catch up" or keep up. Would that help him??
Peach/ATL - Jan, what has the at risk comm said/done?
brock - does he have any attentional or impulsivity problems
pandoras box - ask him what he likes to do an try to give him it
~§Jude§~ - Jan- have you tried the simple things like..telling how glad you are he is here each morning, saying good afternoon each day etc.
amy/oh - darthy - good point. I use tables instead of individual desks and it's not working for him. He may have to set up his own "Office" in a corner of the room
Oceanspray - Jan, what grade is he in?
~§Jude§~ - try hanging up his pictures...the ones he draws after he is done with his work
Shar - So what is next? Do i just let him vegitate if he cannot handle the material? I also agree with you Kathleen, when you said if a child keeps going to detention, you know that something is not working. He has already served three detentions with me.
pandoras box - DOES HE HAVE A.D.D
darthy/AL/RR - Good answer gato, we worry too much about being friends with students - be the teacher
Kathleen - A good place to appeal for help from other educators: The Teachers.Net Classroom Management Chatboard at http://www.teachers.net/mentors/classroom_management
Jan - Peach, that is when we called in the school pyschologist for an evaluation. That was pretty much a dead end because mom didn't want to see the issues the physchologist brough up
darthy/AL/RR - AMY, the office idea sound great
Jan - He is a 5th grader
amy/oh - darthy - now I just have to rearrange the whole room so I can find room to put a blasted desk
Oceanspray - Shar, when do you give detentions?
brock - has he been tested by the psychologist
darthy/AL/RR - Jan, again, appeal to this mom about his future. Does she want him imto sports?
~§Jude§~ - Jan have you checked the past records..any indication of when his difficulties started?
Kathleen - Shar, the taped tutorial sounds like a great idea to help him academically. Why not set up a desk ("The Editor") where he can go sometimes to write, listen to the tutorial. It will preserve his dignity while providing academic and emotional assistance
darthy/AL/RR - Sorry, amy, don't forget the fax line too
amy/oh - jan- we all need to do that at times
darthy/AL/RR - Kathleen, you always have the "best" words to use
amy/oh - darthy - he will be expecting one I'm sure
Kathleen - I think if a child is going to serve a detention it is worth trying to make the session more of a 'getting to know each other as human beings" session
Ði - I am in a very different situation than all of you as I teach severely impaired kids....there are no detentions, no principals office, often no cooperation from home! We just have to handle behavior problems in the classroom!
Jan - He's been a problem since Kindergarten, this is a small town, everybody knows everybody, we've watched him for 6 years now
Shar - Yes, Darthy, I do have the cassette tapes, I am not sure if I ever dubbed a copy for him or not. Ocean spray, I have told his mother I would be willing to give him extra help, but they never take me up on it.
Peach/atl - Jan - Jude has a point --- how did his teacher in the past handle the situation?
Oceanspray - Jan, was there a time during the year when the student behaved correctly...think about that and why he behaved then.
Kathleen - Shar, try the in class help if you can't access him otherwise
darthy/AL/RR - Di, try getting to the grandparents, usually they are your most cooperative source
Ði - Jan, he rather scares me....could he be the next Jr. Hi. student to shoot a teacher?
gato. - >i, you have a tremendous task. My admiration and praise to you!
Kathleen - Di makes a good point. There are children who just do not respond to "all the right moves".
amy/oh - shar - would it be possible to eat lunch with him?
Kathleen - Here is a site has a number of interesting links, including sites that address teaching students ethics in an attempt to prevent or stop disruptive behavior: http://www.neat-schoolhouse.org/Office/Teacher/Classroom_Related/Classroom_Management.html . One site lists publications on the topic of classroom management.
amy/oh - darthy - we have to be careful about involving grandparents - especially if it's a divorce situation
Peach/atl - Jan - what about amy's idea? Could you eat lunch with him to get to know him?
Shar - Kathleen, do you mean when he starts to get bored and disruptive, offer this to him as kiind of a time-out place where he can go when he is bored so that he does not have to disrupt the class?
~§Jude§~ - Jan also chances are he will try to either manipulate or sucker you ( that goes along with the desk shutting mumbling game ) do not fall for it. Make sure he knows you expect the same from him as everyone else, you can be willing to listen and help...but not lower standards?
darthy/AL/RR - Shar, what works best for me is having the tapes in MY voice, and having a pause time to allow the weaker student to catch up with the tape. COmmercial tapes are too fast for my Alabama students
Kathleen - Good idea, amy! Shar, eating lunch with him might be VERY helpful!
Ði - We do get back-up from our Mental Health agencies and often physicians. Grandparents won't work in my situation I don't think.
Oceanspray - Amy, that's a great point...I love eating lunch with my second graders...I think more teachers should do this. I get to know my students so well and it shows them that I love them.
gato. - Jan, we had a child like that who came to our middle school. It turns out he was a "crack" baby. Has a medical reason been investigagted. Perhaps this has been answered and I missed it.
PANDORAS BOX - to make him fell speacial is go get him his favorite food for lunch
Kathleen - Shar, BEFORE he gets bored or disruptive..he can't be rewarded for disruptions
Ði - Good point Jude!
Kathleen - Shar, the hope would be that a scheduled "break" (or one that he selects from an allotment...maybe one per class session}
amy/oh - shar - I would even try bringing in something special to eat - like personal pizzas from pizza hut or something. Try to build the base
Jan - Maybe eating lunch with him would help, I'll try that too
PANDORAS BOX - You could invite him over to your house and have dinner with him or you can just play a fun game
Shar - I try to offer him in class help as often as ican, but he still "zones" out.
darthy/AL/RR - Shar, some of our spec. ed. teachers use a reward check system that allows a student to earn something from the machine in the teachers lounge = they LOVE that
Kathleen - I had a student (grade one) who would throw herself onto the floor and have a tantrum every day after arriving to learn that it was not her turn to be leader. I never punished, just loved her and waited. It was April when one morning she arrived, looked at the chart, saw another child's name, shrugged and said, "Oh well, it's not my turn today". :-)
Peach/atl - Jan - how did previous teachers handle him?
~§Jude§~ - be careful with food etc at first...then you can wind up with a kid who manipulates...." if you get me another pizza I will be good" etc...try person centered rewards first
amy/oh - sometimes it just helps when kids realize that teachers are people with outside lives, many think all we do is teach them
Kathleen - Shar, do you have reason to believe that he cannot learn the language?
gato. - In the end, Jan, if this student is taking up too much of your time and energy, it is not fair to the others.
Oceanspray - And I don't agree with people who say you shouldn't play with your students on recess or eat lunch with them. The kids LOVE this...and I rarely have behavior problems in my class.
Ði - Careful Pandora, some fifth grade students are capable of casing the joint and coming back to cause more problems than you have at school!!!
Jan - put him in the hall a lot when he was younger, he had a terrible year in 3rd, 4th was better because he was separated from some of his sources of frustration (other kids) he tells me he has no friends. He is a very cute, likeable boy, with athletic ability, just blows constantly
Peach/atl - I agree, gato - it's not fair to the others, but she has tried so many avenues and has not gotten anywhere....
Kathleen - I agree, I'm uncomfortable about food rewards, or any material rewards and bribes
Shar - I like the idea of giving him a place to go before he starts tofeel bored and disruptive. I have never thought of having lunch with him. How do I know that he would want to have lunch with me?
Peach/atl - Jan - are his parents divorced? I had one like that who was sooooooo angry...
gato. - In the Assertive Discipline plan, the parent of this child would be called to take him home when he got that disruptive.
darthy/AL/RR - Jan, I have also worked very closely with the little league coaches = even had the coach come "checkup" on my class as a whole. I've attended the games. WOuld that work"""
amy/oh - shar - just ask him - his body language will tell you even if he can't
darthy/AL/RR - In my school, the most disruptive are sent, or carried home
Peach/atl - Jan - is there anyone at school to whom he looks up? I mean like a coach (male) or any other?
Kathleen - The interesting (and often humorous) "Sweathog's Discipline Plan" in the Teachers.Net Lesson Bank can help when a class is seemingly out of control http://www.teachers.net/lessons/posts/337.html
Ði - Some students really don't mind going home gato!!! Depends how mom or dad deal with him there.
~§Jude§~ - Shar, just dont invite in front of peers...he would prob love it
Peach/atl - Jan - what are his academics like? Can he do the work? Does he do the work?
Kathleen - Shar, I suggest you just request that time (lunch with him) rather than asking him if he would like to do that. He might feel uncomfortable about indicating a desire. And even if it doesn't appeal to him, he might gain something that he doesn't expect
gato. - We have an "Alternative Learning Center" with an assigned supervisor, where disruptive students spend the day. They cannot have lunch or break with their peers. They stay in the one room all day. For Teens this is a jail sentence!
darthy/AL/RR - Jan, sometimes our Maintance (sp) man gets a disruptive boy to "help" him is a safe situation
Shimer - gato,I needed an assertive d.plan last year. It is unfair to the rest to be so preocupied with a few.
Shar - Kathleen he does not seem to really try and learn the language because of his disruptive behavior. Or maybe he is disruptive because it is getting too hard for him. I am not sure which one it is.
amy/oh - peach - good one - he might respond to someone he already admires
Jan - I only teach language arts, but he is very behind in language, maybe a year in reading. Almost never reads, and slops through the language assignment. Not a motivated student.
darthy/AL/RR - Yes, gato, it is great, but doesn't begin in my system until 6th
Ði - Wow gato! Is the Alternative Learning Center working? Sounds like a great idea!!
gato. - Most of our parents are both working, so a parent is not happy when he is called to come and get a kid who refuses to behave.
amy/oh - shar - jude is right about not asking infront of peers - either they'll feel left our or make fun of him
Shimer - And like Kathleen, I am uncomfortable with attentions that can be seen by the students as rewards for acting out.
darthy/AL/RR - Yeah, buddy, gato, especially if they get called at work - that really works!!!
gato. - Yes. It definitely works. Our staff has sacrificed other things so that we can budget the expense of the supervisor.
Peach/atl - Yes, the Alternative system thing sounds great, but we're back to the old problem of how many times does Johnny have to go there to get something done about his situation...
darthy/AL/RR - Di, the ALt. Center really works, and we've had newspaper coverage so the kids know about the "prison school" as they call it
Kathleen - Shar, establishing a personal relationship with him can only help both of you.
darthy/AL/RR - Peach, sometimes they have to go a month or more = transportation is NOT provided
Shimer - Jan,not reading at level can certainly be one reason for not participating. Can the curriculum be differentiated for your students' reading levels?
Ði - Peach, it is my guess that Johnny would really hate missing time with his peers....probably hard to get the usual amount of attention in the Alternative room!
Shar - Right now he appears to be failing Spanish. If he fails by the end of the year, he will not make it to 8th grade Spanish.
gato. - Well Peach, I have this philosophy: The "normal" kid should be expected to behave, period! A child who is "sick" needs special placement. Sometimes some kids just do not belong in a class of 30 ( our class size, usually) It is just not fair to the other 29.
darthy/AL/RR - SHar, any exchange students around your high school??
Peach/atl - I hear you , gato and I agree. But is shuffling him off to Buffalo really helping him in the long run?,
Jan - Yes, we are on Accelerated Reader, he has his own zone, just won't read because it is expected I think.
Ði - Unfortunately gato, many administrations don't want to hear about a kid needing a smaller class.....some districts can't afford a class for "a few".
Shar - I would really haave to think pretty hard about asking him to lunch. Where would i eat with him? In my room?
darthy/AL/RR - Peach, but I want my son, or grandson (one of the other 29) to have an equal opportunity to an education
Shimer - Jan,are there other choices besides accelerated reader?
Peach/atl - That's why i wonder if there is a placement such as a BD class for this kid/.
darthy/AL/RR - SHar, YES, definitely a carry out plan
Shimer - darthy,I was just about to say that's how I feel about my daughter's class.
gato. - I don't know, Peach. But you are supposed to teach him, not discipline him. When we have "Back to School Night" I tell the parents present: It is not my job to teach your children to behave; you send them to me well-behaved and I will teach them. (I see many heads nodding)
Shar - Darthy, i don't know aabout exchange students, why? What was on your mind?
Peach/atl - Gato - That's exactly what I think.... So many folks think of the few, not the many. I was playing devil's advocate as tat's how my counselor approaches things...
Ði - Gato, that's wonderful!!!
Jan - I have a reading class besides that, he participates in that, just won't do anything on his own, or use study hall for anything but talking and grumbling, with a few tantrums thrown in several times
darthy/AL/RR - THanks so much for the discussion room tonight, SHar, Kathleen, I've enjoyed the visit.
darthy/AL/RR - SHar, I've hosted exch. students. Maybe a Spanish one could help you with the class or this problem child
Shar - I am just not sure if I can really save this kid. I am resigned to the fact that he will probably fail Spanish because of his behavior and attitude in class.
gato. - Another thing I would like to share with you, my Friends, is that experience helps a great deal. If you are just starting out, be patient with yourself. The technique will come. Be organized, be consistent, be prepared. Above all, do not get discouraged, especially do not let one unruly child take away the joy of reaching all the rest.
Peach/atl - gato - I had a parent who came at Sneak a Peek who told me that I had to be the child's friend if I wanted him to behave. i told them that I was to be his teacher, not necce. his fried and that I will expect good behavior out of him or I would be calling her.
darthy/AL/RR - SHar, some have to fail to grow up. THat's what my husband says happend to him - the baseball coach saved him from being a drop out
Shimer - Shar, consequences of not working in class are being dropped from class.
gato. - darthy, I have 43 years of experience behind me. I have loved every minute I have spent in the classroom. I have no intentions of retiring. About writing a book, I don't know...but I have been a mentor teacher and nothing gives me more pleasure than to encourage and help others in the profession that I honor.
Peach/atl - Shar and Jan - you'll have to let us know how things turn out. Remember - it will take time...
Shimer - Goodnight all, and thankyou Kathleen. I had an interesting first visit.
Kathleen - Goodnight now, I'll lock the door ;-)