Tuesday, November 14, 2000
Early Childhood/Elementary
Teaching Young Children About Native Americans
with
Debbie Reese
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Kathleen/Moderator - It is an honor to welcome Debbie Reese. Debbie teaches, lectures, and writes extensively about multicultural issues as they affect young children, especially within literature. Debbie, thank you for agreeing to spend time with us here at Teachers.Net as many prepare for the Thanksgiving holiday.

Kathleen/Moderator - I know participants will have many questions, but may I start with these 2 items: Recently a teacher reacted to the suggestion that teaching young children to sing,"Ten Little Indians" is not appropriate, saying: " I teach my kindergarten students all about Native Americans and that is what we refer to [as] the first people on this land, but as kindergarteners they still enjoy this fun song." Debbie, how would you approach an educator about this? AND Amazon tonight asks: "How can I gently ask my daughter's K teacher not to sing "that song".... I also used to supervise student teachers and nearly had a fit when one of the lead teachers separated the "fair" children from the "dark" children to be in a "skit" about pilgrims and indians and they were to make the appropriate costumes..... AARGGH!!"
Debbie - I'm glad to be here! It is a busy month for anyone who talks with teachers about Native Americans.
Debbie - This is not my idea, but I think it is a good one. I wish I knew who to credit with the idea... How might it be if you substituted "Chinese" or "Latinos" or some other cultural group in that song? It is a rhetorical question, but one that does give us pause to think.
Amazon might consider telling the teacher about our discussion, the technique of substituting an ethnic group, to see if that helps the teacher see the the stereotypical nature of that song. Consider, for a moment, the idea of Pilgrims and Indians. When we teach children about Native Americans, it is usually at Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is in the remote past. The predominant image is "Indian in the past." Children, when they see their parents, have "updated" images on that Pilgrim. Do they ever see "updated" images of Native Americans? Or are the Native Americans in your curriculum stuck in the past? I think it is fine to do a Pilgrim/Indian unit IF you make sure that the Indians are shown correctly, and IF you include modern day information in your classroom on a consistent year-round way...

Kathleen/Moderator - This came up during a discussion on a Teachers.Net mailring recently: "....she told me that the Center does not allow us to hang up pictures of Pilgrams or Indians...just turkeys. Besides the point that I own a lot of pilgram pictures....this really is upsetting to me. It is almost ignoring history. And what is offensive about Pilgrams and Indians?" Debbie, reaction?
Debbie - The problem is that Nat Am appear only at Thanksgiving. And that suggests that they (we) do not exist anymore.

Jennivere - Do you have suggestions for how to introduce this subject (thinking about teaching about NA) when you are a student teacher, etc. Or if you are in another situation where you have preplanned curriculum?
Debbie - Jenn - I'm currently living in central Illinois, where there are very few Native Americans. In my visits to local classrooms, I see just how powerful the stereotypical image can be. Children think that I will arrive at their classrooms wearing feathers, buckskin. They're surprised when I'm not! I think one way to introduce Native Americans in places like this is by using children's books. The books I search for and encourage teachers to use are ones that show modern day Native American children engaged in traditional activities, BUT who are very engaged in bike riding, working on computers, etc. There is a growing body of these books. The Lerner company has the WE ARE STILL HERE series of photo essay picture books that are quite good.

Debbie - Another good one for early childhood classrooms is titled WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR MOCCASINS. Author is Bernelda Wheeler. It's a show and tell format young children are familiar with.
Debbie - "Jody, where did you get your moccasins?" and so on. The illustrations very firmly place Nat Am in a modern context, and allow you as the teacher to talk about ideas children have of who Native people are, what they wear, where they live, etc., but with the book, you can help them expand those ideas.

Kathleen/Moderator - Debbie is a Native American

Amazon - What is a "modern costume" and "modern image" of a Native American... Having toured the south west quite extensively I have seen "traditional" costumes for special events but mostly the NA that I have seen were in the same clothes as myself.... can you please clarify that point Debbie?

Debbie - Good question, Amazon. Let's start with the word "costume." I have clothing that is "trditional." It is rooted in history, but now I wear it at special times, not everyday. A modern image is one that shows Native Americans as people who live in the US today, who ride bikes, public transportation, etc. Many children's books show Native Americans in traditional clothing in modern day contexts, and that is WRONG. Think of Bill Martin Jr's book KNOTS ON A COUNTING ROPE. The setting is southwest, probably Navajo and Hopi, though the text doesnt' say so. The Hopi are shown wearing their traditional clothes to watch a horse race. In reality, that wouldn't happen! Native people wear traditional clothes at specific events, not as everyday attire.

Starshyne - I appreciate your answer about not just having Native Americans at Thanksgiving. But do you really think that the Thanksgiving story and pictures should be elemintated? I find that I am scared of offending someone, and so I am not mentioning it at all. I don't see how this is offensive.
Debbie - Starshyne, the way that most teachers teach about Thanksgiving is a sweet story that many find quite deceitful. What happened to Native American culture as a result of that first contact? In our society, we glorify that first contact as a time of getting together. And then, we leave it there. When the students get older, we think they may get more of the story, but they never do! So many grow up never being asked to think about what European contact meant for Native Americans. Since that part of the story is left out, and all most all Americans get is the sweet story, it becomes an outrage.

kindygarden - so besides visits from native americans, and books/stories, what other suggestions can you give us? as for not just at thanksgiving, with everything we try to cram into our curriculum, it's traditionally been introduced then. as sensitive as we try to be, there's only so much time...but in honoring the native past, we are having to honor all other cultures. boy, i sound awful...don't mean to? i meant to say that we can only get so indepth with any culture...
Debbie - Kindygarden, no, you don't sound awful. I think the very fact that you're even raising questions is a good sign in where we've come as a society. To question. To probe. Other activities and ways to teach about Native Americans.... how about music? The music we "think" of as Native American is usually the music Hollywood tells us is Native. See if your local public library has recordings from Native musicians. Play that for your students. Contrast it with Hollywood music. FYI: Native Americans do not play drums with hands. That is African (and other) style of drumming. Native Americans use a drumstick.

Eileen - Are there any websites in which Native American books are read aloud? I am also looking for web activities for Ages 5 - 6 for Native American culture?
Debbie - Websites where Native books are read aloud? I don't know of any. Kathleen will post a list of recommended resources I put together. It includes websites with good info on Native Americans. Web activities for young children related to Native culture? That's a tough one. I'm not sure what sorts of activities your five-six year olds do on the web. Research?
Kathleen/Moderator - We will include that with the transcript, it will be linked at the top of the page.

kindygarden - debbie, do you personally object to the term /indian/? what about your classes, kids, and elders? do they
Debbie - Kindygarden. I do not object to "Indian" but some people do. It is rather complicated. If I have a sense that you know something about New Mexico (where I'm from), then I'd say "I'm Pueblo Indian." If I sense you don't know NM or much about Native Americans, I'd use the more global "I'm Native American." and if you said "Oh! What tribe?"---then we'd be back to "Pueblo Indian." The "best practice" is to use a specific tribe. If you're in Wisconsin area, what tribe is near you? Find out. Use that term if you're talking about Wisconsin's Indians. Using a specific tribal name provides children with the very clear picture that there's much more to "Indian" than feathered headdresses/buffalo/tipis/etc. There are over 500 different tribes in the US that are recognized as "tribal entities" by the US government! A lot of diversity there... with diversity in housing, clothing, etc.

Jennivere - How do you deal with caucasian kids who begin having feelings of remorse, etc after hearing the "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say - thinking more of middle el, than ec.
Debbie - Jennivere---I think this is new territory for us as teachers, researchers, thinkers. The other side of the story for Native children is that they've almost always had to deal with curriculum materials, books, posters, etc. that portray them as vicious savages who murdered those settlers for no reason. My personal experience with that is my daughter's EuroAmerican friend who said "I don't want to read anything bad about my culture either." Her point is valid. We do have two sides (at least) to consider. It will be interesting to see how it develops as more teachers start talking about these hard issues. There's an excellent, balanced story about King Phillips war that portrays the horror of war and actions by both, colonists, and Native Americans. Both sides do awful things in wartime. A balanced perspective is certainly necessary.
Jennivere - This situation arose with my 9 year old after school charge, here in Oklahoma.

Starshyne - What do you think of the term "sitting Indian style?" I heard a teacher once say "sit native American style" Is that taking things too far?
Debbie - Starshyne---yes, "sitting Indian style" is a problem. I'll engage a bit of humor here. If you were to sit "Indian style" as Debbie Reese is doing at this moment, you'd be in a swivel chair. I think phrases like that throw Native people into the past, not the present. That's only one part of the problem. Think of other things we associate with Native Americans. Hunting with bows and arrows. But wait a moment.... didn't humankind, wherever it evolved, use bows and arrows? And sit on the ground? We must not continually associate certain behaviors actions solely with Native Americans. Ancestors of Caucasians also, once, sat cross legged on the ground and used bows/arrows. END

Eileen - I was hoping to be able to go to a site in which there might be some storytelling, music, demonstrating some weaving or , beads, or pottery, or patterning, or dancing. . . I teach an all day inner city kindergarten at a high school..Has there been a site developed for primary age children to enjoy Native American culture. I am hoping to go to a site for the Crazy Horse Monument. . .
Debbie - Eileen---On my recommended resources, there is one called Native American Home Pages. The person who compiled the site is a mixed-blood Mohawk woman. She's identified links to pages developed by tribes themselves with a drum. I suggest you go to those sites and see what they have available. That would be the best way to find authentic, accurate information. There's a lot of sites out there (as there are books) that suggest teachers do various arts and crafts that actually move into awkward territory. Some aspects of Native culture are religious. Feathers, for example, are very special and carry a lot of significance. Yet, we have kids make feathered headdresses all the time. A parallel here is helpful. Feathers are to Native people as a chalice is to a Catholic person. A teacher would not even consider making a chalice out of styrofoam and glitter... So go to material produced by tribes themselves. They (we) are careful with what we share and what we suggest.

Kathleen/Moderator - Crazy Horse Monument: http://www.careerpoet.com/crazyhorse.html also http://www.crazyhorse.org/ appears to be THE source. Native American Homepages: http://www.pitt.edu/~lmitten/indians.html

Amazon - Slightly off the subject - sitting - why should all children have to sit *exactly* the same way? - it may not be good for their joints etc.....---> what do you mean by "awkward territory" -- such as a medicinal healer that might be portrayed negatively with witchcraft or other "non politically correct" religions? I personally believe that the NA's are the most in touch with the earth and the environment and pay it the most respect... if we were all to follow that example then we would be living in a much healthier world
Debbie - Amazon---We associate Native Americans with the idea that they protect and care for the earth like nobody else does. There's a bit of truth there, or a lot of truth, but it also works to place Native people on a pedastal. By our mailbox at home is a pile of Dr. Pepper cans. My sister doesn't give a single thought to just tossing them there. Native people, just like others, use those dreadful disposable diapers that are filling up landfills! Certainly, there are historic differences in the way land and ownership, care, etc. were thought of by people of different groups. I don't want to say "we're all alike" because our histories are very different. But I do think we must be thoughtful in how we proceed and how we characterize people, no matter who they are. In the case of Native people, images must be updated. We return over and over to historic images. And that's not good.

anjo - I am not Indian but teach on an Indian...or Native American reservation...I wanted to make dream catchers with them, but was afraid that they wouldn't be appropritate out of yarn and wire.
Debbie - Dreamcatchers. If you find out the tribe they originated with, and talked about that, then I think it would be fine. If, however, it becomes just another "Native thing" that is void of the info related to tribe, then I think it's not a good idea.

Kathleen/Moderator - Please feel free to engage in open chat on tonight's topic during these last few minutes.
Marion - Hello everyone, just noted the comments about things that are special to Native Indians, I would comment that feathers are special to certain tribal groups...however in my tribe they hold no special significance...
kindygarden - what tribe, marion?
Marion - Kwakiutl (west coast of Canada)
anjo - I was curious about the feathers also, as I am not sure if they are special to the Ojibwe either.
Starshyne - I still don't know if I am doing the right thing by avoiding Thanksgiving this year.
Debbie - Marion's comment---it is imperative you find out what is special to tribal groups in your area. Don't assume it's ok. Or of course, you can assume and deal with issues if someone raises them. With my students at Un of Illinois, I stress that they know the community their school is in, what the issues are, etc. On another note, I emphasize "culturally sensitive" or "culturally respectful" teaching, rather than "politically correct" because "politically correct" has taken on negative connotations.
sally - Are there any specific symbols that the Indians at Plymouth Rock used in their communication with the Pilgrims?
kindygarden - so who do we ask? is there a tribal council that we could contact?
Marion - The way I look at it is that one tribal group is as different from another tribal group as Spanish is to French is to English, etc
Jennivere - One of the ways I found helpful to get the "old/new" idea across was when I taught preschool in a largely Dutch community. It was easy for the kids to draw a parallel using their special "Dutch" clothes, shoes, etc. and their modern clothes. I dont know
Kathleen/Moderator - Starshyne is avoiding Thanksgiving this year, apparently out of fear of "doing it wrong" advice anyone?
Marion - the internet is a woderful place to find information kindygarden
Marion - doing what wrong Starshyne?
Jennivere - lost part of post - meant to say I dont know how well that would work everywhere, but it might it places with strong Euro-ethnic ties.
kindygarden - but who/where do i go, and know to trust with real facts?
anjo - If it is on the internet...does that mean it is always correct? I don't think so.
Starshyne - I have been told that teaching anything besides just turkeys may be offensive.
kindygarden - told by who, star?
Marion - many tribal groups have their own web addresses kindygarden...those are trustworthy
Jennivere - what about vegetarians Star (honestly not trying to be flip)
kindygarden - ok, marion, how do i find them?
Beverly - Including Thanksgiving as a celebration of the family wouldn't hurt!
Starshyne - I know Jen! That was my thoughts exactly!
Debbie - Starshyne---can you do Pilgrims and Wampanoagh: Yesterday and Today? Find photos and illustrations of Wampanoagh people then and now? You don't have to do the tough stuff, but can you provide updates on how they look now?
Kathleen/Moderator - This has been a very enlightening and helpful session. Thank you Debbie and all who participated.
kindygarden - thanks debbie! 
Marion - what about teaching the facts about what happened...that the Native people helped the pilgr. survive....this could spin off on what kinds of foods that native peoples have introduced
Beverly - Thanks Debbie!
Starshyne - See...that is exactly what I am avoiding...talking about what happened.
Marion - which group kindy?
Jennivere - Yes, thanks - lots of GREAT resources - thanks Kat too.
Kathleen/Moderator - This was a good session, good questions, terrific support from Debbie Reese.
kindygarden - well marion, it's chippewa or ojibway here; but if i were looking for pilgrims/native, which tribe?
Debbie - By the way, ERIC has LOTS of excellent resources for teachers. Ask them to also send a pubs list.
Kathleen/Moderator - I hope Debbie will return for another chat someday soon.
Marion - why are u avoiding talking about what happened Starshyne?
Debbie - AND, the ERIC pubs are FREE.Go to the ERIC site: http://ericeece.org
sally - I am still interested in symbols Indians used in their writing...does anyone have suggestions?
Starshyne - Because I was told by other teachers at the school that we weren't to mention "pilgrams and Indians"
kindygarden - where are you star?
Starshyne - And when I quesitoned this, no one had a solid answer for me (at the school)
anjo - I just read my e-mail and there is an idea for making dream catchers in the first message!
Starshyne - I am in Illinois
Jennivere - Ah - was just curious - am thinking about UIUC for grad school. Do you ever do conferences, etc.?
Debbie - Sally - symbols used? I urge you, if you pursue this, to also remember to say "today, Native American use the alphabet just like we do."
Marion - seems to be a shame Starshyne...I told the story to my Native children and they were just amazed...also made them feel good
Jennivere - Star - it seems that it would be important for us to teach the "facts" because they may be unlikely to get them anywhere else in their elem. years.
sally - Thank you Debbie...great suggestion...we were looking for something to show how people communicated without the alphabet
Marion - Sally, what about totem poles...they are not writing ...but each pole tells a story...also mayan culture has lots of writing and glyphs...very interesting
Starshyne - And since no one had a solid answer, I was thinking of tactfully (using suggested tonight) teach a lesson about Thanksgiving
anjo - the HeadStart teacher is teaching the Ojibwe languarge to the three and fours at out school...
sally - That's a great idea Marion...thanks! Does anyone have anymore suggestions?
Jennivere - Go for it Star - maybe it will turn out to be a positve example for future Thanksgiving lessons at your school.
Smitty - Great!!! Thanks Starshyne
Debbie - I think the questions Stayshyne is dealing with put her head and shoulders above most EC teachers who have never given a thought to the why's of what they do in their classrooms. If she holds back this year, her students will not be harmed.
Debbie - She is in a growing mode. Worried, concerned, and that is good. Open to ideas.
Jennivere - Scary
kel - Anjo, is the Headstart teacher Ojibwe?
Starshyne - Yes Debbie...that discribes me exactly! Sorry to say that I have studied so many diverse groups, but NA's is one I haven't
anjo - Yes it is a reservation HeadStart...I am the Early childhood teacher at the school.
kel - Anjo, are you Ojibwe, do you speak and teach the language and how do you feel about teaching the language to non-Indian students?
sally - Anjo, what is the students primary spoken language?
Starshyne - Thanks for the great conversation. I have many things to think about now. : ) I need to get lessons ready for tomorrow. Goodnight
anjo - Good night...interesting conversations and I am glad that people are open to discussing this and learning from each other...No I am not Ojibwe...I think it is great that they are regaining their language...it has never been written...I don't think it should be mandatory for non-Ojibwe's to learn it.
anjo - English
Marion - Debbie, what is your profession if you do not mind me asking? Sorry, I arrived late to chat.
anjo - It is part of a culture class
Debbie - Logging off, too. Thanks for a positive exchange of thoughts!
anjo - I don't teach it but I bring my class to culture class
Jennivere - Thanks Debbie
sally - anjo, do you think it inhibits their primary language development to introduce a secondary language at such an early age?
Debbie - Saw Marion's post... I'm a former classroom teacher. Right now I'm in grad school. I write a lot, do a lot of conferences, presentations, workshops, etc.
anjo - No, not at all...I think that young children are able to learn another language easier
Jennivere - Sally - one of my profs is doing her doctorate reasearch in this area (with native Spanish speakers)
kel - Sally, don't you think that their primary language is Ojibwe and their secondary language is English?
anjo - Good question!
anjo - But they are spoken to in English and have never spoken Ojibwe
Marion - there are many cross cultural language studies that have been done to show that taking another language can only enhance English
sally - I did arrive late to chat...I understood that these were non Native-American students...am I correct?
Jennivere - So far, she has shared with us, that it may cause some "temporary" delay, but not any real long tern negative effects
anjo - good night all...both actually...and mixed
Marion - ty Debbie...I appreciate your thoughtful and insightful responses to the questions
kel - But calling Ojibwe their secondary language is like telling us Christopher Columbus is more important to Ojibwe culture.
Jennivere - what anjo?
sally - Jennivere, Do you know of any good websites that might address this topic for young children?
Jennivere - nevermind - got it (der)
Jennivere - Sally, I don't know off hand, but I'm sure she would - if you want to email me, I can send you what I find out from her (or you coudl contact her directly)
Marion - Jennivere do u mean a temporal delay if learning different languages?
Jennivere - yes
Jennivere - but there are many variables - age of the child when 2nd lang is introduced/if they were in a "bilingual" situation their whole lives, etc.
Marion - sally one First Nations woman who has done extensive research is vivian ayoungman...i think she can be tracked on the web has done a lot of research on language...she has written some wonderful research reports on it
Jennivere - Sally/Marion - are y'all signed up on the EC mailring
sally - thank you Jennivere for the information...maybe I'll check out the internet some more tomorrow
Marion - what is the ec ring Jennivere?
sally - No, I am not on the EC mailring, but I am not an EC teacher
Jennivere - kel - I'm not sure i understand what you mean in your post below?
Jennivere - EC Mailring - can sign up through the T.NET website - is very cool - kind of like a list serv - people send in requests for curriculum ideas, share interesting articles, etc.
sally - Marion...I am going to search for her on the internet...thanks
Kathleen - Mailrings are available at http://teachers.net/mailrings
Kathleen - Goodnight all!
Marion - i belong to grade 1 and grade 2 ring ...is that what u mean? sorry new to this
Jennivere - Marion - yes, except I am on the early childhood (EC) one - just thought that if you gals were signed up, we could sahre info that way.
Jennivere - There are many kinder teachers on the EC ring
sally - OK...I didn't know if that was strictly for Pre-K teachers or kindergarten, too
Jennivere - nah - pretty wide variety - some Infant/Toddler folks, a couple of administrators, lots of kinder and pre-k people.
Marion - i am new to teaching EC as I have taught adults for 15 years (even though degree is in elementary) and the rings have been so invaluable to bounce ideas and share concerns...have to love technology
Marion - well I am going to check on the other room before I log off...nice meeting everyone...night
Jennivere - Yep - I am a 'net junkie. =) Okay, off to do some studying (ack)
sally - Good night...enjoyed!


 
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