Teachers.Net Focus Session - Gender Issues in the Classroom

Teachers.Net Focus
Wednesday, March 24, 1999
Gender Issues in the Classroom
with
cath22

cath22 - The theme for discussion this evening is "Gender Issues in the Classroom"
cath22 - it is widely believed and accepted that many decisions we make in life are as a result of our being gender stereotyped from birth. "blue for a boy, pink for a girl" is more than just a cute match for our relative gender - it is already the beginning of early stereotyping influence by those we come into contact with from a young age. this is then carried over from our infancy into our school years, and certainly into the classroom.
apple - the majority of my class make-up is boys. very unmotivated boys. i make my lessons very hands-on oriented. any ideas of how to motivate individual students to want to get good grades?
cath22 - it has been observed by Marks (1979) that unconsciously parents and other people communicate a wealth of information regarding gender approrpriate behaviour to infants in an effort to socailise them
amy/oh - I'm actually surprised to see that more teachers call on boys than girls - it seems like my girls are the ones to offer answers or comments
cath22 - i feel that this "gender socialising" trend continues into the classroom
maggie - can you give me an example of what you mean cathy?
cath22 - why do you think that would be, amy?
amy/oh - I'm not sure cath - many of my boys are a.d.d. and the others are being distracted by those kids maybe
cath22 - maggie - for instance, in a recent survey of people in touch with children, it was found that more than 60% of people would buy a toy truck for a boy...and over 80% would buy a doll for a girl
amy/oh - I'm sure I was over generalizing - but the girls do seem to pay more attention
apple - girls get emotionally involved, boys are simply into facts and figures, correct?
amy/oh - cath - I would buy a book for either
cath22 - i think also amy that a lot of boys feel that they have to act up to their peers in the classroom
maggie - i would agree with that cath,,i think we all do that....
amy/oh - apple - I can't agree with that
cath22 - well amy - there you go... you fall into the remainder!!!!
KAM - I would buy what I think that boy or girl would like....
cath22 - yes i would do the same, maggie. but it is an example of how easily we put repsective genders into their stereotypical roles
amy/oh - cath - that could be correct. Also the girls are afraid of the asst principal - a man and they know they don't want to have any reason to visit him
cath22 - yes amy - that could make the girls feel intimidated i suppose......
amy/oh - I know he intimidates me
cath22 - the toys are just an example ..... but there is another observation to consider.....
KAM - What is the other Cath?
cath22 - it is felt that "girls toys teach girls to stay at home and play quietly, boys toys teach boys to go out, take things apart, put them together and move things around.
cath22 - could this be an influencing factor on the way certain genders respond to certain subject matter within the classroom????
fish - Good evening. I am currently completing my specialist certification and interested in gender issues that arise in early chilhood education. What do some of you feel are the top five or six gender issues in early childhood education?
amy/oh - but in the defense of the toy companies I have 3 girls and we have every toy ever made I think - erector sets, legos, dolls, youname it and they still gravitate to the "girl toys"
cath22 - i think it is difficult to give a definitive answer to that, fish... but we are exploring this issue and you will probably note the main points that arise from it..!!!
cath22 - yes amy i can believe that... but there again the manufacturers go all out for the "psychological" impact of toys on kids..... the girls all aspire to be like mummy right????
amy/oh - no I think they would rather be Barbie
amy/oh - I try very hard to be sure I call on girls and boys the same amount and that I don't focus on one group
cath22 - but the reason for bringing up the stereotyping perspective is to explore the reasons that girls and boys opt for certain subjects during their schooling
cath22 - it is widely believed that boys are more proficient at maths and science subjects...... what is the opinion on that?
maggie - in my class i find it is the boys more eager to answer and solve the maths equations over the girls as a general rule of thumb...already seems ingrained by that point
amy/oh - cath I'm sure it is believed that way because my grades reflect that
apple - like i said i believe boys simply look at the facts and figures while girls tie emotion into what they are doing. therefore, girls like all the language arts and reading activities better.
cath22 - but is it because girls are less able to do these subjects, or do they just leave them to the boys???
amy/oh - after I've instituted lots of group work the girls seem to come out of their shell and offer ideas just as much
apple - maybe it is because boys are left brained and girls are right brained?
cath22 - abbott and wallace observed that "the ability ot do science and technology subjects has more to do with the differential opportunitites that girls and boyd have to tinker and play with construction toys and gender stereotyping of subjects as "boys" and "girls" areas"
amy/oh - cath I'm sure that's partly true - the boys in my class LOVE legos - my own girls never enjoyed them although their dad and I tried to encourage them to play with them
KAM - I think boys are more interested in the technical areas and science areas but some girls are also very interested in those areas...and vice versa...
cath22 - yes and because of that amy then boys and girls head off into certain subject areas at school
KAM - I didn't make sense ....some boys are interested in areas that girls are more interested in....
cath22 - yes kam i agree with that..... and research shows that far more boys enrol on to computer courses at college than girls (84% boys on average)......
amy/oh - I think you're both right - some girls do like those areas but hard as we try at school I thnk every mom I've had in says "I'm so dumb at math, that's my husbands area"
cath22 - it did make sense kam. but perhaps as teachers we also encourage certain genders along certain routes... due to our own gender socialising background??
apple - are those recent computer statistics? my girls are much moore interested in computers than my boys.
cath22 - apple they are for Britain for the year 1997/98 school yr
cath22 - the police force in britain had the following to say "on average women perform better than men on verbal tasks, arithmetic, clerical skills verbal reasoning rote memory and fine manual dexterity.....
amy/oh - the computers are an intersting area - the boys only want to play games and girls like a variety of things
cath22 - they observed that men perform better on spatial tasks, practical and mechanical abilities.....
cath22 - but they felt that these differences were as a result of differences in experience, practice and motivation, rather than in ability
cath22 - i think girls tend to have a far more practical approach to computers amy - they see themas a means to an end
cath22 - another interesting thing is that more female than male enrol on to language courses
amy/oh - I agree that it's not ability - it's their perception of ability
KAM - Cath, do you have any idea as far as percentages as to how many many are in the medical field and how many women?
cath22 - kam - i believe that medicine was grouped under sciences for the purposes of this survey..... in which case there was a higher entry of males than females.
KAM - Sorry, how many men and how many women...
cath22 - kam.... i think it was something like 60%-40% male to female
cath22 - amy - i agree with your comment totally.... that is the whole issue of this discussion!!!!!
KAM - The reason I asked is because it seems there are more male doctors and more and more men are going into the nursing field, therapy programs, etc.....
Amy/NC - I teach in a more rural part of the state and I see that the gender biases are naturally more prevalent here
fish - In the school that I work, both boys and girls excell in math and science. Maybe we need to train people about stereotyping, like we have concerning the disabled. Do we believe the handicapped can be successful? Of course we do. With efforts like have
cath22 - yes kam.... it seems so.... and perhaps again it is because in school the boys are more encouraged into these fields?
cath22 - yes fish that is also an issue....
amy/oh - I asked my 11th grade daughter about her honors classes at the HS. She said that she doesn't feel that gender is an issue - ability is
cath22 - in which ways amy/nc????
Amy/NC - stereotyping of males and females in all ethnicities
cath22 - amy - ability always should be the issue but depending on our gender socailisation as young people can effect the way we pass on these values to our children and students
amy/oh - amy - I teach in a rural school too and as I sit and think about my class - more than 1/2 of the kids have mom's that stay homebye
cath22 - in anything in particular amy/nc???
KAM - Amy, out of my daughters class (senior) it sure doesn't seem like there are very many boys in her honor society...
Amy/NC - i took several workshops on gender and ethnic stereotyping and they gave us useful ways of trying to prevent it in our classroom
amy/oh - KAM - sorry there are lots or not?
amy/oh - amy/nc - what were some of their ideas?
KAM - There are not many at all....like one or two....
cath22 - amy/nc - it is a good thing when our education systems recognise the need for training in these issues
Amy/NC - being extremely aware of calling on both boys and girls equally...not relying on the typical strengths of boys and girls (sterotypically)... they even go as far as not asking children to line up according to male or female..etc
KAM - cath, I think girls take their studies more serious than boys and seem to care about their grades more...Most girls anyway... What do you think?
amy/oh - kam- our of my own 3 kids - all girls - the oldest takes thing very seriously - the next just doesn't want to get grounded, and the youngest hasn't had enough experiences to make a decision yet
cath22 - yes kam, i would agree... and it has been noted that "women do well in study because achievement and conformity at school contradicts certain codes of masculinity, especially working-class masculinity. additionally the greater surveillance of girls and young women by parents also pushes them into doing homework"... this could be true!
Amy/NC - They asked us to get an observer to come in our rooms and tally the number of times we called on boys as opposed to girls and write the nature of our responses to each
amy/oh - amy- I often use clothes pins with the kids names or numbers on them to call on kids - or I rotate around the room if that works
KAM - Amy, how did that turn out?
Amy/NC - amy- that is a great idea!
amy/oh - this is the first year I've only had one more boy than girl - one year it was 2 boys per 1 girl!
Amy/NC - KAM- believe it or not I was pretty even on all the areas but It definately gives you food for thought!
KAM - I am sure it did and very interesting....
amy/oh - kam - the clothes pins? great - they know they all have to be ready - I also allow them to pass or ask a friend if that works in the current situation
Amy/NC - I think it is something that we should always be aware of.
KAM - Good idea, Amy/oh
Amy/NC - If i hear the statement from o paretn one more time "boys will be boys" I think I will scream!! I get tired of parents using that as an excure for misbehaving!
cath22 - yes amy/nc! i agree with that. boys often get away with a lot of things just because of their gender!!!!
tanya - I did not get anything for that web address
amy/oh - amy - me too I have one mom who's perfect little angel is a disruption in all ways. I finally said "Well the other boys don't act that way!"
Amy/NC - it realy is ridiculous!! I firmly belive it is all in the way you raise a child. Well, I think that has a big impact on it! Societies views also greatly effect it but....
KAM - Amy/oh and what was mother's replay to that?
amy/oh - amy - I'm sure he's add but dad won't even consider it. I think when a 3rd grader acts the way he does there's a problem. Maybe he's not add just extremely spoiled
Amy/NC - I had a little boy one year that would not touch a Barbie doll with a ten foot pole if a child brought it in to share--
KAM - I tend to agree with you Amy/NC...the kind of up bringing the child has had....
cath22 - yes i agree with this issue...and it is down to socialisation of a child and what influences they are subject to as they are growing up
Amy/NC - He said that he and his dad blew the heads off of Barbies with firecrackers
amy/oh - kam - she's finally seeing the problem but dad refuses to consider it. At conf. last night he said that he's sure the boy can control his behavior himself and he asked him infron of all of us. I asked boy since you agree to that then can you explain why
¤êrã§êr¤ - wow - these are some tales! I teach at a school with mostly boys - special ed 6:1:1 ratio
amy/oh - amy - that's awful - that's a severly deep rooted problem!
KAM - Amy/oh, it will be interesting how this boy does now....
cath22 - so... that brings me to something else.....that children want to follow in the paths of their particular role model..... and the child would adapt their views and attitudes accordingly towards certain activities which would be labelled "women's" or "men's"
amy/oh - kam - you're right - he wasn't that good today - better but not in control and it was just the next day
Amy/NC - i think that most parents around here -small town-- have very "old-fashioned" points of view
cath22 - amy/nc - and these views affect the whole outlook of a child upon certain thinga
Amy/NC - cath22- i believe that is true
cath22 - amy/nc - and these views affect the whole outlook of a child upon certain things
amy/oh - cath - I think that's on the decline a bit. The books and resources available to kids to day have helped
cath22 - yes amy.... but wanting to be an image of their role model does seem to add momentum to the whole issue of gender stereotyping....
cath22 - especially if their role model is one of old-fashioned views!!!!
KAM - Some of the views would affect the outlook but not totally ...
amy/oh - it's also helped that we have a female prin. and a male vp. He have 10/24 teachers that are male, a mixed custodial staff
cath22 - i agree that books and resources are helpful... but by the time the child has got around to being able to make use of them they already have some sort of ingrained attitude towards their own gender
amy/oh - cath - do you think it's different in large cities vs. rural, wealthy vs poverty
Amy/NC - do you thin kit depends on level of parents education?
cath22 - amy/oh - there is evidence that suggest that socio-economic differences affect this whole gender stereotyping issue
amy/oh - in what way?
cath22 - yes amy/nc - i think that parents education has a lot to do with attitudes and values
amy/oh - I would guess that the higher the socio-ec level the more opportunities the kids would have to see bother genders doing many different types of jobs
KAM - Yes, I agree to that cath about parents values and attitudes...
Amy/NC - It becomes diffuclt to change parents ways of thinking-- we can do all we can in the classroom though
cath22 - for instance, girls from certain social or ethnic backgrounds may be hindered in their achievements by their expected role in the home
fish - Other than the obvious biological differences, it is true that all gender issues are environmental? Socioeconomic is a huge issue with stereotyping althought upper call people can be as guilty of stereotyping as lower classs.supports
cath22 - yes amy/nc - we need to be seen as unbiased as possible towards certain roles for certain genders
cath22 - i agree with that fish... we are just taking a general overview - it would be far too much to explore the socio-economic effects of stereoptyping
KAM - That is very true about ethnic groups...they are expected to comply to their parents....
cath22 - yes kam... i teach many asians... the girls are only in education until they can get married and have children when by then they are expected to be a homemaker
KAM - They have certain standards they have to meet, etc....
cath22 - yes kam..... and the parents expect a high standard of education from the boys
KAM - But I was wondering...are the boys as pressured as the girls in education in the Asian countries?
cath22 - well that is a good question kam.... i know that here in england the asian families are very demanding of their children as afar as education is concerned.... and the parents have much control over the subjects the children choose.....
cath22 - for instance they go for business and computing subjects more than any other
KAM - In Taiwan I think the girls all go to a girl's school and the boys go to a all boy's school...Am I right?
cath22 - umm.... not sure on that one!!! we have gender specific schools here ion england though..... it is an interesting perspective
KAM - Yes, it is.....I wondering if all schools in Taiwan are separate....We had a student with us from Taiwan...
cath22 - it wouldn't surprise me.... again they have very high demands as far as their children's education is concerned....
KAM - I know probably universities are different and there are both genders there...Not sure about earlier grades though.
cath22 - although if a child has been to a same sex school they should probably have been exposed to a wide variety of subjects with out having the hindrance of seeing them as gender specific subjects???
KAM - Probably both genders in lower grades but many students go to private schools later....
DJ - I teach at a single sex school in Japan
KAM - That is true Cath....
cath22 - well then you will bring an interesting perspective to this discussion dj!!!
KAM - DJ....do you teach all males or females?
DJ - hopefully cath
ika - hi .. and i teach in an all girls school in malaysia
DJ - o a single sex school in the UK
cath22 - another interesting perspective!
ika - but i have taught a coed schol b4
DJ - females Kam, and Japan is a VERY sexist country
ika - DJ ... most asian countries are sexist ...
cath22 - do you think that children achieve more by being placed in a same sex learning environment??
DJ - most of the girls just want to get married and have kids That means they will never get a job
ika - my girls, i find, are extremely sheltered
KAM - Just what you said before Cath...
cath22 - is this from parental influence, dj?
ika - i have taught both types ... and i find that it's better to put students in coed schools
DJ - In a purley academic conteext yes I do although the social aspects of education have to be considered
cath22 - yes it all has to be balanced up dj!
DJ - Cath parental, environmental everything. THis country doesnt see women as being capable of work because when they get married they stay at home so stop work
ika - single sex school students tend to be too ignorant abt the other sex
cath22 - i expect this has come from centuries of socialisation and cultural influence
ika - yes, i agree with that, cath ...
DJ - My wife is a qualified english teacher. She is japanese and graduated from one of the top universties. SHe has studied in america and Uk. In job intereviews she is asked 1 are you married? 2 when will you have children
KAM - Ika, probably the females more than the males or not?
DJ - how about the embarrasment factor in the classroom?
cath22 - is she ever refused work because of her gender dj???
ika - KAM, i shall let u judge for yourself ... when my students(girls) go to stadiums or conferences where there are boys ... they drool over them .... and the same for the boys too (fr boys school)
DJ - In the UK boys dont want to be seen as too clever infront of their friends or too stupid in front of the girls
cath22 - ika - it is the same at my college... the girls admit they only come to college for the social life because they get no freedom at home
ika - but the boys and girls from coeds ... they are rather natural abt talking with those fr the opposite sex ... and they are more confident
cath22 - i would agree with that DJ
DJ - frequently cath. "men are more reliable" and thats a quote!!!!
KAM - DJ, many people want to know if the person will be around to work for a while or will they quit to raise a family....
DJ - Kam I agree but some women don't want to raise a family or don't want to stop work so why should they be penalised ?
ika - would you believe that one politician, a very "religious" leader, actually suggested that all women (save for those unmarried ones and childless ones) not be allowed to work?
cath22 - do they have equal opportuinities there dj?? or is that a silly question?
KAM - They shouldn't DJ....
ika - this politician said that he wants to implement that in his state where he is the leader (sort of govenor)
DJ - silly question. Women are paid less and if they do get a job it is usually as an office lady aka photocopier/coffee maker
DJ - here it doesnt go on ability but on length of time with the company women quit so they can't even start
ika - DJ, are u in Japan or UK?
DJ - Japan Ika but I'm a qualified teacher in the UK
DJ - so I have experience of both
renne - So sorry! I have a personal bias in this situation...
DJ - go for it renne
cath22 - is the current mentality in japan more to do with government or general socialisation dj???
ika - i see DJ ... Malaysian schools are still sticking rather closely to the british ed system (the old one anyway)
DJ - social cath. its the same as is was is the UK or america 40/50 years ago
ika - renne, everyone has his/her own biases
cath22 - share it, renee
cath22 - do you think there are positive changes being made or anything dj?
DJ - is that selection Ika or comprehensive system
ika - what's that, DJ? don't understand?
ika - but we used to follow very closely to the term, etc ... now trying to follow american system a bit
DJ - Well in the autumn aparently a law will be passed making it illegal to ask if they will start a family
DJ - selection as in good students go to this school, etc. Comprehensive everyone goes to the sam eschool regardless of ability
cath22 - that should give far more opportunities to women, dj... but surely employers can still introduce their own gender bias?
ika - oh, DJ, some schools follow the selection system, like mine is trying to ...
renne - That is crazy! I have taught at every level for 15 years, yet my most important job is a mother!
cath22 - many parents try to fob that responsibility onto schools renee
ika - renne, i feel that no matter what our jobs are ... our role in the family (as father or mother) will always be more important
renne - True, and that means I am mother to more than my own!
ika - as a teacher i can see the effect of children without or with absent parent
ika - renne, i have no children but i am also a mother to my students ... sometimes they need me as such
ika - cath, when is this session ending? just wondering
renne - As do I, but who do we blame, the child who we are entrusted to teach or the parent?
cath22 - i was going to leave in 5 mins ika! but feel free to continue without me
ika - i am afraid, the fault often lies in the part of the parent ... and speaking of gender issues ... the way their parents treat them can be reflected in their behaviours
cath22 - ika... i agree with that - we discussed that earlier on
cath22 - thank you all for your input here.
cath22 - goodbye all.
KAM - Good job Cath....enjoyed it...