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Kathleen - Hi, Welcome to another Hot Topic session! - Inclusion
Heidi - I think that in some circumstance depending on the child's needs that they should be removed from the environment and work one on one
Nancy - How do you feel about inclusion
Heidi - What do you think? I have two children with Learning Disabilities and I am Learning disabled myself.
Nancy - What state do you teach in
Heidi - I am not a teacher at present still in college I have three children ages 3, 6 and 10
Nancy - I do agree with inclusion. I work with the severe disabled and I see a lot of differences with other kids who have been around mine
Heidi - I feel it is good in some aspects well a lot of aspects but sometimes one on one is good
Heidi - It is really good for the other population it shows them empathy and compassion and understanding
Nancy - Ky is really pushing for severe kids to be in reg. classrooms. That way when the kids are out of school, and graduate and see disabled adults they are more likely to help, if they know what they need.
Heidi - I think both should be considered
Nancy - reg. ed. teachers would die if they thought they would have my students in their classroom
Nancy - I see points both ways
Heidi - Yes I agree with you. My son on the other hand goes to the resource room for math and is doing great. So I do believe in inclusion and in resource room.
Nancy - The idea here, is that my students would still do what they would normally do in the special ed class, only do it in the reg. class with the other kids
Heidi - so would they have an aid in the classroom to help them?
Nancy - They would have the other kids, teacher and maybe an assistant depending on the student
Mr.C - Hi all... just read Nancy's comment re: how reg ed would respond... I have a different viewpoint.
Heidi - I had to srtruggle for theree years to get my oldest son coded as LD. It is tough here in NH
Nancy - Please share, all I have is from my own school
Mr.C - I taught inner city 9th graders... who read at 3rd grade level... no special ed... reg ed... and managed a few successes nonetheless.
Nancy - What state do you teach in
Mr.C - For one... I had them write about their home town... then posted to a listserv... stories that got published in school papers around the world. Any can succeed with enough imagination... I teach in CA.
Nancy - Sounds great, but what did you do with those who could not write except may be their name
profsci - greetings, i have some spec ed kids included in my classes
Heidi - Anyone can succeed with enough encouragement and will power. When I was young they told my mother I would never succeed and I would never go to college and here i am working on my BS in special education
Mr.C - ESL is a major issue in CA due to 227 and other things... but most have no clue how to motivate. Well nancy... unless the kid is completely autistic... you can usually get some words out of them somehow...
profsci - thats the spirit heidi, with that you can make it, some of my students (spec ed or otherwise) just dont want it bad enough and therefore dont do enough to help themselves
Nancy - I know there are great reg. ed teachers out there. But there are those who feel that it is hurting the reg. kids. I am not agreeing with them just stating what I have heard and read
Heidi - YEs got to have determination that is what I tell my children all the time.
Mr.C - Mainstreaming is a very tough call... and also very political. We have a student who is almost completely autistic (and also disruptive) who has special aids round the clock and others... being force-mainstreamed into the system by his mother (and attorneys).
profsci - nancy, my "normal" kids can benefit by working with the spec ed kids in class to help them understand the material, it is rewarding for both AND the "normal" kids while functioning as mentors/teachers are reinforcing their understanding of the material
Nancy - Let me explain, I have 4 kids, all can talk, but can not recognize only a handful of words so far. We have increased their word recognition quite a bit so far this year. However, they could not write a sentence if their lives depended on it
Heidi - I know but I have been there myself I was in self contained (mind you just LD and very shy at that time) and I felt like i was dumb
Mr.C - How about a verbal collage?
Heidi - What a struggle these children and the teachers are having. This is why I am going into special ed for the kids
Mr.C - use the words the students utter... create pictures, word collages, etc.
Nancy - I know how well normal kids can do with my students, seen it happen and it is wonderful. Thankfully, I have a wonderful reg. teacher who takes my students willingly
Heidi - I have a friend who has a child who is autistic will not talk to her teachers and hardly anyone in her family but she talks with me and has even spent the night i have only known her for about 4 months
Nancy - Sounds like you have the touch with that child
Heidi - It really feels that way. We just connect especially with signing and talking we do both
Nancy - I have other students as well besides the 4 I mentioned earlier and one is autisic too.
Heidi - I have a question, does anyone know of what is happening about The president taking SSI away from autistic children? Do you think autistic children should be coded?
DJM/KY - Anyone teach high school special ed......i have all categories....LD, MMD, EBD, OHI.....
Nancy - I don't know about that I was told that SSI depends on the parents income????
Heidi - Yes and if you have a child with a disability
Nancy - Sorry DJM, I am elementary and I guess you can say middle school. Since my oldest is 13
Heidi - Hey about OHI should or can a child get coded as OHI without being educational handicapped?
Nancy - Personally, I feel that SSI should not depend on that parent's income, it should be based on disability. Since raising a child with a disability is sometimes more expensive than a "normal" child
DJM/KY - Heidi.....as far as i can understand you can be labeled OHI without having any problems with academics.....it is things like heart problems, liver problems, diabetes, ADHD, etc.
DJM/KY - does anyone here teach EBD?
Nancy - My school has several that are OHI, ADHD actually and they do receive spe. ed. services from one of the teachers
Heidi - So is OHI considered coded? My two children have a muscular disease called Charcot Marie tooth (which I also have) it is inherited it deteriorates the muscles and the nerves die
DJM/KY - Nancy.....they can.....its just according to if they need the services....
DJM/KY - Heidi.....i would consider that OHI or maybe 504....
Heidi - oh yes 504.
DJM/KY - Heidi.....you just have to have medical documentation of the condition.....then the ARC determines if it causes a problem with the child's educational opportunity....
Nancy - Heidi, do they need special service due to that
Heidi - Yes it is very expensive to have children with disabilities.
DJM/KY - But Heidi.....does this cause them to need something extra than the regular kids are getting?
Nancy - Are they receiving OT, PT services at school based on the condition
Heidi - That is what i have been struggling with within the school system. THey finally coded my oldest after I took him outside the school system to have him tested for LD and he is also coded as OHI now I am working on my middle son.
DJM/KY - Heidi.....it is really determined by if they need something extra to make them successful......
Heidi - As it stands they are not doing what is in Seth's IEP which has PT in it. I have to call them and tell them he needs PT there are other things they are not following. I know they are trying but this is november not september
DJM/KY - Heidi......sometimes you have to get after the school system......that IEP is a legal document and if they do not follow it they are breaking the law.....could have teaching certificate revoked, etc....
Nancy - One of my parents would tell you that if it is in the IEP, and they are not doing it threaten a lawsuit. She threatened this a couple of years ago, before me and they had services in no time
Heidi - They do have medical documentation it is proven that they have CMT type 1a
Nancy - DJM is right about the IEP
DJM/KY - nancy......99% of the time you have to threaten a lawsuit before anything is done......especially here......and it is a shame....
Heidi - Yes they can not use the stairs, or can not participate in PE , It affects the hands, legs, arms, back, need ot and pt
DJM/KY - Heidi.....yes but if they do not need extra services to be successful in school then they probably will not label them.....my sister is diabetic but has never been labeled OHI or 504.....just depends....
DJM/KY - Heidi.....if that is the case I would push it until they complied.....if not, then threaten with a lawsuit......that will put them to moving...
Nancy - But if they can not participate in PE, then something needs to be done. That is educational
Nancy - Once the IEP is written and the committee signs the forms, they have to do what is on that or be held liable
Heidi - that is what I thought Nancy
Nancy - I have one parent who knows all the ins and outs and tells me these stories of a couple years ago,
Heidi - Yes that is an idea right now they want to give brandon an 504 which is not enough as far as I can see it when seth has the same condition and has an Iep
DJM/KY - Heidi.....team up with a parent who has been there.....they can help....
DJM/KY - Nancy.....what category do you teach......i do LD, MMD, EBD, OHI, and anything else they put in my classes.......high school level
Nancy - I have FMD, which use to be called TMH and SPH
DJM/KY - i am getting my rank I in MSD....moderate and severe....
Nancy - My youngest students is 4 and my oldest is 13, so far I have 7 on my list I am responsible for their entire day. Thankfully, I have one very wonderful reg. ed teacher who loves my kids and takes them with no problem. But there are others.... well they would throw a .... you know what fit if I even asked
DJM/KY - Nancy.....UK offers a program called TREK-CR....pays for classes if you get certified in MSD....maybe you should check it out....
DJM/KY - Our FMD teacher has been sending her kids out to regular ed. classes.......we also have some of those here too.....I take one of hers in my functional english classes.....she does well....
Nancy - Never heard of it, but I already have a bachelor's in TMH or FMD, which is basically the same thing. I wonder if they would pay of Master's in MSD or FMD
DJM/KY - nancy.....yes they give first priority to BS, then Master's, then Rank I.....a lot of them are doing Masters in MSD in the program now....
Heidi - I do have a child advocate sorry for the delay :)
Nancy - DJM, I think it is all a matter of what level FMD they are. I have some, that well.. only go to PE, art, library and music with reg. classes
DJM/KY - Heidi.....well you are on the right track.....just keep pushing....
Nancy - Heidi, I will email you this weekend and get your address if you want. What does the advocate say about all this
Nancy - DJM, so do you want to teach the MSD, or are you getting more experience for having them in your reg. class
DJM/KY - nancy.....well i don't really want to do MSD....but will if i have to.....will probably stick to less severe categories....
Nancy - You sound like you would be a great teacher where ever you are. I know FMD is the place for me, when I see a child who knew 8 words at the beginning of Sept. and now knows 30, I feel good.
DJM/KY - nancy....i don't teach regular ed.....i teach special ed.....she comes to my special ed. english class.....even though we are having to teach same content as reg. ed.....just modify it to their level...
DJM/KY - i will have enough hours to teach either MSD or early childhood spec. ed.....
DJM/KY - Nancy....how do you feel about having to teach spec. ed. kids whatever the reg. ed. classes are teaching.....same content....just have to modify.....they say we have to teach it with a "functional" approach....
Nancy - I feel that inclusion is needed. How long during the day, should depend on the child
DJM/KY - Beth.....i think it is good if it is done correct.....and only for the kids who can handle it.....not all can....
Cathy/IL - I'm personally concerned about the children that inclusion doesn't seem to be the best answer for, but because we do inclusion, they are included.
DJM/KY - Cathy....that is why i think inclusion shouldn't be school wide.....should be based on kids needs....
Cathy/IL - Does anyone here do what we call full inclusion? They eliminated our of our self contained spec ed rooms!
Kathleen - ARE there kids who can't be included under any conditions?
Kathleen - Yes, we do full inclusion, it's called Kindergarten!
Cathy/IL - DJM, I agree it should be based on kids, but in our district we have no choice but to include all kids.
DJM/KY - Kathleen......every child probably has a way they can be included......just have to consider each child individually....
Beth67 - I did full inclusion last year with an Autistic child
Cathy/IL - Kathleen, right you are! I've taught kindergarten too!
Heidi - I am working on my BS in special education and have two children with LD
DJM/KY - Cathy....I think that that is a disservice to the kids....
Nancy - The middle school in my county went full inclusion this year and most agree it is not a good idea
Cathy/IL - DJM, so do most of the teachers in our district! However, the school board made the decision.
Beth67 - I think that to do inclusion the right way, you need to have teachers who believe in it and truly want to do it, otherwise it just isn't going to work!
DJM/KY - HOW CAN A SCHOOL OR SCHOOL BOARD MAKE A DECISION WHEN IT IS BASED ON A CHILD'S IEP???????
Mary K&1 - I think that it's not being done correctly in a lot of places
Mary K&1 - DJ, that's right
Nancy - Djm that statement you made a minute ago, right on. I don't know how districts can and do make that decision
cgny - I also agree it should be based on each kid
Kathleen - Why do you think "inclusion" elicits such strong reactions, positivie and negative?
cgny - Regular ed teachers need to be trained
Heidi - Kathy that is the ultimate question
Cathy/IL - DJM, our student's IEPs don't specify how services are to be delivered...because we do inclusion, that's the only choice!
Nancy - I probably have one, that would be a very tough call for inclusion. No communication, diaper, doesn't eat - except bottles, if you try to feed him, he throws up. He's 4 so I hope he outgrows a lot, but he is pretty severe mentally functioning too, I believe
Cathy/IL - I think "inclusion" elicits strong reactions because of the fact that in our district it was forced upon us!
DJM/KY - But Cathy that is not how it works.....you write IEP on what the kid needs.....then determine where it would best be carried out.....special class, regular ed., resource room, etc.
Mary K&1 - In our area, if inclusion isn't working for a student, they are given a different placment
Mary K&1 - DJM, that's how we do it
Beth67 - Training is so important!
cgny - Nancy, i agree what is that child getting out of his/her experience
Beth67 - You can't force inclusion on people, or it isn't going to work!
Cathy/IL - DJM, I'm aware of that, but all of our choice have been removed!
Cathy/IL - Mary, you can't give a different placement if there are none.
DJM/KY - Cathy.....when the state and feds find this out they will change their minds......really fast....
Kathleen - Can an IEP require a specific environment?
Beth67 - A lot of people would look at the kids I've had included and say that it wasn't the appropriate placement for them, but I'd disagree and so would his parents
cgny - beth i agree not to force it on anyone
Nancy - Right now the child is mainly in my room, he spends a short time in head start. I spend a lot of time cleaning up, since eating is a goal
Beth67 - I don't think an IEP can say specifically what environment, but in my district parents have the last call on that one. If they won't sign for placement in a spec.ed class, the child has to be put in basic ed
DJM/KY - Yes.....you have to determine the best placement for the IEP to be carried out....
Beth67 - In a basic ed class, it's hard to do everyhting it takes to do inclusion successfully and manage the other 25 bodies in the classroom (with no aide)
Kathleen - Beth, what about among environments within spec ed, can the IEP require inclusion, self-contained sped, or such?
Kathleen - Can it be "inclusion" if there is not a second teacher present??
Heidi - Yeah an iep I bleieve has to say something about the child must be not discriminated against or be mainstreamed to the maximum extent possible
DJM/KY - Beth.....that is one of the reasons why inclusion doesn't work as well as it should.....not enough support, staff, etc..
Beth67 - I think the IEP is just for listing goals, not for specifically the classroom setting
cgny - Colleges and Universities should be held responsibile for training the reg ed teachers
sue - I would like to know what criteria other areas use for selecting children for the inclusion classes.
DJM/KY - Kathleen.....the teacher can consult the spec. ed. teacher for ideas, strategies to use......which is more consultation than anything....
Cathy/IL - We were told we would have plenty of help with support staff...and they do their best, but they can't be in the room all the time. Too many kids and not enough support staff.
Nancy - Beth I have a teacher who takes 4 of my students everyday, without an assistant and manages her other 28 bodies, I am not sure how she does it... she does a lot of group work during that time so my students can work up to their level
Mary K&1 - Beth, our IEPs do state the type of classes by %
DJM/KY - Beth....you have to list how much time and for what classes the child spends in regular ed., special ed, etc.
Heidi - no the Iep is also for the classroom setting in least in my son's it is
Beth67 - I didn't even have a teacher at my school who was trained in Autism... I attended many conferences and inservices to learn, but it was basically just "sink or swim" and fortunately I swarm
Kathleen - DJM, seems the second teacher has to be half of a genuine team for it to work
Cathy/IL - Mary, do you mean the percentage of time the student requires a certain class setting?
sue - In our school the inclusion teacher is in the class with the regular ed teacher and the students. 2 teachers, 1 asst and approx 30 students.
Beth67 - Nancy, what kind of spec.ed do you teach?
Nancy - Kathleen, I think you are thinking about collaboration, that's the two teachers
Mary K&1 - Cathy, yes
DJM/KY - Kathleen.....one problem is that some reg. ed. teachers do not carry out what you suggest......some don't care....others don't feel it is their responsbility....
Kristink31 - Kathleen, inclusion just means your special ed kids will have support. It doesn't mean there has to be 2 teachers present always.
Kathleen - Then, let's clear up terminology: Inclusion is ??Inclusive Education: Philosophy of Inclusive Educationcgny - In the district i sub in all of the sped students are inclusion. The sped teachers push in and work with them for specific things.
Nancy - Beth moderate and severe
sue - nancy, that's what we callincusion in our area- a reg ed and special ed teacher teamteaching in one class
Cathy/IL - And my support person is great, but she doesn't have a teaching degree! No special ed training.
DJM/KY - Kathleen......Inclusion is including the kid in a classroom with his "normal" peers......collaboration and consultation is when the spec. ed. teacher works with the reg. ed. teacher....
Heidi - Yes can I have a definition of inclusion if anyone does not mind
Nancy - Inclusion, is including spec. ed with reg. ed can be with or without supports
Beth67 - Do you feel inclusion is full-time, as opposed to mainsteaming?
Kristink31 - Inclusion is: special education students full time in regular education with support from the special educator.
Nancy - Thanks, DJM, I know I wasn't saying it right
sue - Ok, I'm getting very confused.... what some are calling inclusion is what we refer to as mainstreaming.
Fran - What are the reponsibilities of the "regular" classroom teacher versus the Special Ed. Teacher?
Heidi - You know what some (not here) people forget is how really talented special ed children really are
Kristink31 - Beth67...Big difference between mainstreaming and inclusion. A lot of people confuse the two.
DJM/KY - Beth.....inclusion and mainstreaming is basically the same thing....
Mary K&1 - Students who are included have their goals stated in their IEPs, some of them are there just for the social aspects, you are not expected to get them up to the same academic level as reg. ed students.
Nancy - inclusion doesn't have to be full time
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...They are definitely NOT the same thing!!
cgny - Every student has different needs and requires different things . I worked with two students last year who were "inclusion" for two different reasons
Kristink31 - cgny...I agree.
Kathleen - How does inclusion differ from mainstreaming?
Heidi - no but the spec educ. should be challenged at their level
Mary K&1 - DJM, in our area, mainstreaming and Inclusion are very different
Mary K&1 - Mainstreamed students are expected to handle the same academics as the reg. ed. students
Mary K&1 - They are mainstreamed into classes that they can handle
Nancy - Both are suppose to be responsible for overseeing and documenting goals on the iep
sue - djm-- no! not in our area. An includion class contains both reg and spec ed kids with the support of a teacher for the enitre day. mainstreaming is when children from special ed join a reg ed class for part of a day
DJM/KY - Kristin....inclusion can be full-time or part-time in reg. ed......same as mainstreaming.....you put them in with reg. ed. kids...
Kristink31 - Kathleen, mainstreaming is placing students into regular ed classes without support...say a mentally impaired student in a P.E. class....
Kathleen - So, the terms are not universal in their definitions..hmmmmm
cgny - One of the students was in the reged class for social reasons. She could not keep up with the routine of the class. I don't think it benefitted her very much
Nancy - inclusion and mainstreaming are the same here
DJM/KY - The law states that inclusion is spending time in the regular classroom.....it doesn't say for how much time......
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...mainstreaming is very different. With inclusion, there is more communication and planning and support given to the regular ed. teacher. Mainstreaming is more of a "dumping" of special students...
Belle - As a regular classroom teacher I get frustrated with my inclusion kids
sue - kat, that's part of the problem. there is also no set way to choose a child who will be successful in an inclusion class
Kathleen - Are there federal definitions of these terms?
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...there are no specific laws regarding inclusion. Inclusion is a Least Restrictive Environment issue.
DJM/KY - Kristin.....not here in kentucky.....here you get the same support.....we don't just dump ours anywhere....
Belle - I don't have special ed. training
Nancy - I think we have a problem, since we are all from differnet parts of the usa, we see things differently
Beth67 - I feel the same way Kristink31!
cgny - The other student had a great year. She learned how to get along with the other students and we found ways for her to succeed academically by using various methods of evaluating
sue - krist-- the lre issue is a difficult one. We had a child whose parents felt the lre was in one of our grant PK programs. It was disasterous. it put us over class limit, had no assistant from an aide and the child couod not funtion with the rest of the class,
Beth67 - I feel the same way Kristink31
Kristink31 - DJM/KY, well, regardless, there is quite a difference between the two terms. I'm simply stating that often times people use the terms in place of one another. They are NOT the same thing.
Mary K&1 - cgny, we are told that if inclusion isn't working for a student, we need to call the team together and make changes
Kristink31 - Mary K & 1....YES! That's right...communication is the key to successful inclusion!
Kristink31 - sue, I agree...but all options need to be considered for each individual student. A continuum of services should be offered...not inclusion or nothing!
Beth67 - Problems with my server.. sorry! I'm from Florida.
Nancy - I'm another KY teacher
Fran - What type of kids are we including?
Nancy - All teachers, regardless of spec. ed or not are I though suppose to teach a child on their level, at least at my school we all try
Beth67 - You have to have a team approach with everyone... teachers, support staff, parents, administration...
Kristink31 - Fran, most of my experience is with L.D. kids.
Nancy - all levels
Kristink31 - Beth67, RIGHT ON!!
sue - krist-- this was an unusual situation. The child could have beenplced in a non-cat program with a lo class size 6-8 but the parents wanted her with this teacher who teaches one of our programs
Beth67 - I'm a reg.ed teacher, and have done mainsteaming with Primary VE students and inclusion with Autistic students
Kristink31 - Nancy, in an ideal world...*s*...You're right!
Fran - I have a severe case in my classroom
Kristink31 - sue...was there quite a bit of communication with this parent?
Kathleen - It's hard to imagine many sped children not benefitting from an inclusive environment, without negative impact upon other children, as long as the necessary support is in place
Beth67 - What's that, Fran?
sue - do you recommend inclusion with ED/BD kids if they can handle it on their meds?
Kathleen - (regardless of what it is called)
Kristink31 - You all can find more information & links regarding inclusion on my web site...http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2967
DJM/KY - Kathleen.....what about EBD kids?......a lot hinder the education of others.....
Mary K&1 - DJM, we are told that if a child is interferring with the learning of the rest of the students, then inclusion is not the right placement for that student
Fran - A child who has almost no memory at all
spec. ed tchr. - Kathleen what type of support are you refering to?
Nancy - All my kids are included with reg kids at some point of the day regardless to how severe they are
Kristink31 - sue, yes...they would benefit from the appropriate role models of the "regular kids"
cgny - MaryK&1 I think that's a good idea; but the parents need to agree to the changes. We made changes within the class but she was so low functioning that she could not keep up. On the other hand she really didn't know or understand the situations
Kathleen - well, spec. ed, a second adult whenever necessary to begin with
Beth67 - I think the basic ed kids benefit from inclusion as well
Farmer Girl - I have several students that come to my classes..some of them come wtih their aides
Nancy - If you don't include Ebd students how else are they going to learn how to behave
Kristink31 - Kathleen, I totally agree...inclusion will benefit MOST students...regular & special ed!
spec. ed tchr. - gosh I can't get over the positive vibes I am getting here. It seems all I ever is negative, negative, negative...
Kristink31 - Beth67, we are thinking alike, girl!! *S*
Farmer Girl - Inclusion is good, but some teachers don't like to have them in their rooms how sad
Kristink31 - spec. ed tchr....do you currently use inclusion?
DJM/KY - nancy.....but don't you think they should work their way up to being mainstreamed into regular ed......especially those who are self-contained.....not just thrown in .....
Kathleen - Beth67, I agree that the other (normally developing) students often benefit from the mixture. Of course, there are exceptions
Beth67 - I get the negatives all the time too... it's hard to balance it all but it is sooooo worth it!
spec. ed tchr. - Farmer girl what types of students do you have included?
Kristink31 - Farmer Girl, maybe those regular education teachers haven't been included in the planning & discussion relating to those children.
sue - I have no problem with mainstreaming or inclusion as long as their is teamwork and it benefits all the children. When it's to the detriment of the class I object
Farmer Girl - I guess i have always felt like..what if that were my child or my sister or brother how would I want them to be treated
spec. ed tchr. - Kris well yes but we are all spread too thin. I never have much time to do it the right way.
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...I don't "throw in" any of my students to an inclusive setting. It's a team decision including past teachers, current teachers, parents and administrators
Farmer Girl - I have mmh, ld and eh and two that are in wheelchairs
Beth67 - ITA Farmer Girl. Especially being a parent, I think you have to think about what you would want for your child
Kristink31 - spec. ed tchr...We all are!!
Kathleen - Does anyone find that any particular [grade]level of classroom teacher is more accepting of inclusion/mainstreaming? I would think that early childhood people might be more comfortable with it???
spec. ed tchr. - It seems as if one has to get a "act of congress" around here to get an aide.
Farmer Girl - The one child that is autistic will be coming next year...
spec. ed tchr. - Yes, Kathleen that has been my experience.
DJM/KY - Kristin....I don't "throw" my kids anywhere either....I am just saying that some are....
Beth67 - I'm finding that primary K-2 is more accepting, and as the grades go up and the educationial demands go up that those teachers have more of a problem with it
Mary K&1 - Beht67, could it be that they don't understand what is expected?
Beth67 - Mary, I don't know. I know we have problems finding 3-5 teachers at my school who are willing to include these kids in their class
sue - I guess I'm sort of jaded. I have only seen it work well at one school with K kids. it was a wonderful experinece for them but it's not effective at my school
Fran - Early childhood is definatley easier; we're more adaptable after all
Kristink31 - Kathleen, my experiences with inclusion ... the younger teachers are sometimes more willing to accept inclusion. However, I have worked with veteran teachers (20 years) that have done a WONDERFUL job with including my students!
Farmer Girl - Kat I teach grade 7-12 our elem ed. students go to special class..i don't think they have inclusion..not sure
spec. ed tchr. - What do you do when you know the kids just don't understand the concepts being taught? Take for instance upper level social studies or science....
Mary K&1 - spec.ed, what does the student's IEP say about it?
spec. ed tchr. - mary say about what??
Mary K&1 - How much of the reg. curric. is the included student there for? Are they expected to be achieving at the same rate?
DJM/KY - Kristin.....what level do you teach.....
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...That's the first step...communication!
sue - fran, ec people are usually more accepting of individual differences
teachie - Beth - I have found that the younger a child is, the more accepting the teachers are - but, then, the difference between the reg and spec ed kids becomes wider as they get older.
Kathleen - Is it necessary that the classroom teacher be of the philosophy "start where the learner is" ?
Farmer Girl - Kris I have taught close to 30 years..no problem
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...currently I'm working with 4th grade L.D. students, but I've got 8 years experience at the middle school level with L.D., emotional, physical and various other disabilities. What about you?
Beth67 - I agree, teachie
Farmer Girl - I also teach Family and Consumer Science....we have many inclusion students
Nancy - If you are having problems including sp. ed students then the princiipal should tell the teachers they have to do it It is the law and if it is on the iep then...
sue - we have achild who is in K who has absolutely no clue poor baby. mom failed to complete eval papers for non cat placement. He spends most of the day with us in PK-- inclusion or mainstreaming???
Kristink31 - Kathleen, not necessary, but helpful. The regular ed teacher must be a willing participant!
Fran - So let's get more specific; any great ideas on how to include very low functionong students?
DJM/KY - Kristin....I have done everything from K-12 , every category, last year did a self-containd EBD unit.....this year I am doing spec. ed. english and pre-algebra at high school level.....all categories put together....EBD, LD, MMD, OHI....
Beth67 - If he's in a spec.ed class most of the day, then it's mainsteaming
Farmer Girl - Sometimes it is harder on the teachers...many don't want ot take the time to prepare differently for the spec. students
Kristink31 - Nancy, my experiences are that "forcing" teachers to take special students in an inclusive setting ends up not being a truly inclusive setting...make sense?!
sue - beth-- not in a special ed class yet awaiting paperwork which won't be completed before April.
DJM/KY - Mary.....here i have to teach the same curriculum/content.....just have to modify to their level....
Nancy - Let's don't get started on the inclusion/mainstreaming thing again
Kristink31 - Mary K&1: not necessarily...the student's IEP goals are what academics are based upon.
Kathleen - Fran asks, "any great ideas on how to include a very low functioning student?"
spec. ed tchr. - I worry about some of my kids who just don't get it. They can't tell you there own address and yet are expected to know about world history and such.
teachie - The students at our middle school are included for the exploratory classes - most of them any way. Unfortunately, unless the student is from the severe room, no aid goes in with them. My students are mild to moderate. I feel sort of sorry for the exploratory teachers. I have a hard enough time with the behaviors in my room, but when they have to deal with behavioral issues in a class of 30 and with no help, I think there is something wrong - it isn't the teachers, it is the whole system. Inclusion wasn't meant to mean "putting" them in a regular classroom. Including means making it possible for them to be in there and get something - even if it is socialization - out of it.
Farmer Girl - I guess maybe ours are more mainstreamed...they have always been sent to my classes...the aides that come with some of them are just great..i have had students that can't read, write etc. they love the class..almost everything is hands on
Beth67 - Kristin, that's exacting a situation we had at our school last year. This child was in a basic ed class but wasn't really included... he was basically just existing in that class with an aide and his own area, doing things that the others were not doing. I don't call that inclusion.
Kristink31 - Fran, start by having a social goal for that student rather than focusing on academics.
Kathleen - Maybe we should try to stick to the concept of having sped children in the "reg" ed classroom, rather than trying to force definitions upon each other.
Fran - I agree; I have a second grader who can't tell you red and yellow yet his mother wants to know when he'll start to add!
spec. ed tchr. - Well said teachie. What state are you from? sound very familiar to me.
Kristink31 - teachie...and just being in a regular ed room isn't inclusion!! *S* I agree with you!
Mary K&1 - I think that too often teachers don't know what the student's IEP says.
sue - nancy, since he is low functioning for K and he moved down to PK I would consider that inclusion but without teacher support. he has no goals written for him.
Beth67 - Fran, I think it's so important for parents to have realistic goals, not to expect miracles
Kristink31 - Beth67, I agree....that's not inclusion.
Farmer Girl - Mary..we never see the IEPS
spec. ed tchr. - I think reg. teachers should remember that they don't have to have the same expectations for the included kid. make sense everybody??
Beth67 - Farmer, you should demand a copy of the IEP
Nancy - They may not be there to get the content of social studies or science or whatever. The important thing is for them to be with peers their own age, you would be surprised at how much severe kids can pick up by just being in the room
Fran - In our area it seems the children are included according to age not level
Kristink31 - QUESTION: Any suggestions on how to monitor a student's progress that is fully included that I don't have the luxory of seeing on a daily basis?
Kathleen - yes, spec ed, I think that makes the reg ed teacher feel less insecure
DJM/KY - Farmer.....it is your responsbility to get the IEP's if you have them in your class....you are the one being held accountable.....not anyone else....
teachie - Farmer - if you are the student's teacher, you should see the goals. The spec ed. teacher should be providing you with a list of modifications.
Beth67 - Yes, spec.ed! It took me a while to get over that :-)
DJM/KY - Kristin.....meet with the teacher on a daily or weekly basis.....
Mary K&1 - Farmer, why don't you go to the office and look at it, you have a right to do so if the student is in your class, you may have to sign something stating when you viewed it and why, but that's not a problem
Beth67 - Kristin, how about a communication book between you, the basic teacher, and parents? Something that everyone writes in every day?
spec. ed tchr. - We are required to give the reg. teacher a copy of goals and mods. They sign and keep a copy for themselves.
sue - fran,if they are included by age but are on a much lower level how does that help them or are they only included for non academic subjects?
DJM/KY - Farmer.....were you not in the meeting where the IEP was written......
Beth67 - Shouldn't the basic ed teacher be at the IEP meetings?
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...not possible due to conflicting schedules. I have a form that is filled out...weekly is a slight possibility...but still, how do I meet that child's specific needs?
Fran - What's tough is how much of our day is non-academic?
Kathleen - DJM, that was my question..weren't you at the planning meeting?
spec. ed tchr. - Kris. You need to know what the IEP says before you can address his/her needs.
DJM/KY - Kristin.....if the child is in reg. ed. full time it is the reg. ed. teachers responsbility to meet the needs.....didn't you put them as the implementer on the IEP?
Kristink31 - Beth67, a regular ed teacher is usually a part of the IEP, but not all regular ed teachers can be invited--especially when "specials" classes are always changing...right?
sue - fran, homeroom, p.e., cultural arts, dear time?
Beth67 - I guess I don't understand why everyone can't be at the IEP
Kristink31 - spec ed teacher...I wrote the IEP! But, I don't have the ability to see the child on a daily basis. How do I make sure the goals are being met? I don't have common planning time with the reg ed teacher. I do have a communication form...
teachie - Kristen - I monitor several students that I see only one period per day. We have daily monitoring sheets that the student either carries, or each teacher has. They have places for the teacher to make for behavior, assignment compeletion, etc. they can easily be modified to list which goals were worked on by using a checkmark system. The student is then responsible to get it back to me at the end of the day. Since most of mine are behavioral concerns when they are on the sheet, I have set up incentives with each student. When they reach the "goal" we have set up together - perhaps ten days with no negative checkmarks, then the student receives his/her reward - it could be a can of pop, or a McDonald's certificate. I can keep track of what is going on with the kids and I have contact, then, once per day.
DJM/KY - Beth....i am with you.....the teachers who have the child and any know future teachers should be there....
Nancy - Can't your school get subs for the meetings. every school I have been at does
Kristink31 - DJM/KY, right, but ultimately, I'm the responsible person.
sue - how many of you teach self-contained spec ed and do not mainstream onr include your kids?
Beth67 - Definitely. Even specials teachers should be there
Mary K&1 - Kristin, I thought that it was the law that the reg ed teachers be there - it's the district's respon. to get coverage so that the teacher can attend
Kristink31 - teachie, which grade level? Could you e-mail me a copy of your form?
spec. ed tchr. - Sometimes we have to change the grading scale to Satisfactory or Nonsatisfactory.
DJM/KY - Kristin.....but if the regular ed. teacher has the child all day then you are not responsible....they are.....they are the implementer....
Fran - During home room my kids are doing a spelling paper; during lessons she needs a full time aid talking to her which interrupts their concentration; and Dear time would never be quiet for she can't even turn the pages of a "baby" book onher own
spec. ed tchr. - Kristin, that's tough. I usually catch them before school and after lunch etc... Just when ever I can. We are a close knit group so I have even called them at home before. We also use check lists.
Kristink31 - Mary K&1; yes, but 1 regular ed teacher. I don't think it's logistically possible to have all reg ed teachers present
DJM/KY - teachie....we do that with our behavior problem kids.....only for behavior though.....
Nancy - THe implementer would be whoever is one the iep as the implementer. Could be spe. ed. reg.ed, assistant
Kristink31 - spec ed tchr...I'm new to the district, so I'm getting to know everyone!! I do speak to them whenever I can catch them and I do have a Weekly Progress Report that they fill out for me...
sue - So, does the law now state that all children have to be mainstremed/ included? Will there no longer be self contianed special ed classes?
DJM/KY - nancy.....you are right.....anyone can implement an IEP....not just a spec. ed. teacher....
spec. ed tchr. - Kris, how are your kids doing grade wise?
Beth67 - Sue, I think most states are moving away from self-contained classes
DJM/KY - Sue.....it is based on the child's need.......not on what the school offers.....
Fran - It seems like the parents are the ones who decide destinations
Kristink31 - teachie, thanks...that'd be great! Whatever I can get to make things go better would be wonderful!! *S*
Beth67 - You know how the pendulum swings :-)
Nancy - Self contained is on the way out, however resource will probably remain at least for a while
spec. ed tchr. - DJM I agree however I can honestly say that doesn't always happen around here.
Beth67 - Fran, I definitely agree. If parents don't sign paperwork to put them in a spec.ed class, then of course they have to go basic ed!
sue - we have self contained special ed classes at our school and 1 inclusion class
Mary1 - What do you do when you are supposed to serve 27 students, several of whom are to have 20 or more hours of special ed each week?
DJM/KY - I don't seeing resource rooms ever being done away with......there are always those who cannot function full time in regular ed....or some even part-time.....seems my kids are coming to high school lower and lower each year....
Fran - What parent would ever accept a child's limitations?
Kristink31 - Nancy, our resource room is for our more significantly disabled students.
sue - beth67-- if parents won;t sing the papers and the kids are failing in reg ed and or disrupting the learning of others is there anythig that can be done?
Beth67 - Sue, you can go the "due process" route, but that would involve going to court
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...I agree...it's part of the continuum of services that, I believe, special education students should be offered.
Nancy - Here in ky, they are pushing to include severe kids in reg. classes for math, science, language arts, and social studies. We are being held accountable
teachie - Sue - the kids are supposed to be in the least restrictive environment. Full inclusion may not be least restrictive if it frustrates the child. We only have one fully included child in our school. He is fully included because his mom is very much aware of the laws and the school district knows she is. He has a full time aide. His goals are totally separate and his aide works on them with him in each class. I think it is going well, so far, but I have some concerns that he is missing out on an opportunity for friendships with some of my students, who, by the way, are a little more accepting of disabilities. But I also think it is good for the reg. ed students to have an opportunity to get to know him. I don't think many of them do anything with him after school, though.
Beth67 - DJM and Kristin, I agree... I don't think that they can do away with the supports that special needs kids need!
Kate - I just came in on the conversation, I had an inclusion child in my class, He was a CP child. He could not speak and couldn't walk, hold his head up, but yet he was in a reg. ed. class. I really don't think that this was the place for him. I felt like we were a babysitting service.
DJM/KY - Does anyones district have an EBD self-contained unit?
Kristink31 - teachie, so do you think that student is actually included or just present in the regular ed class? *curious*
Beth67 - DJM, what is EBD?
sue - teachie, sounds like a wonderful experience. wsih it were like that for more kids
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...explain...EBD...emotional, behavior disorder?
DJM/KY - EBD IS EMOTIONAL/BEHAVIOR DISORDER....
sue - djm, we have a self contained ed/bd class I'm not sure if they are mainstreamed to other special ed classes or not
Nancy - Regardless of disability, school is not a babysitting service. I have some that others would think that too, but the kids do learn, if they have the right teacher
Fran - Kristink31 i think you hit the nail on the head! Included or just there?
spec. ed tchr. - Are your special ed. kids included in your standardized testing score? Are they aggregated with the class?
Mary K&1 - DJM. yes, we have a least 2 in the EL level, one at the HS - we are a small district
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...the district I taught at in Michigan had a separate classroom/teacher for Emotionally Impaired (including behavior challenges)
teachie - To some extent he is "included", particularly when there are group activities. His aide assists him and helps the kids find things he can do for his part of the team-work. At other times, I think he is just there. At least he isn't physical. We will have one next year who is PDD and he gets physical. I don't know what the teachers will do with him.
Beth67 - DJM, we have EH (emotionally handicapped) and SED (severely emotionally disturbed) classes in my district
sue - nancy, I agree if there is the right mix. We had an autistic teacher who was wonderful and her kids made great headway in one yr.
Kristink31 - Fran, a lot of people think placing a special needs student in a regular class in inclusion...Wrong!! I am glad you agree!
sue - teachie, explain PDD ( pervasive developmenatal delay?)
Lisa/3 - Our sp. ed students' scores are inclued in our state assessments.
Kathleen - [there's that definition problem again;-)]
Nancy - KY has their own scoring that the schools are held accountable for, and YES my kids are held accountable, but differently than reg. kids, but just as important]
sue - lisa, so are ours. It makes me crazy to have these kids tested on their grade level when you know they can't do it
teachie - In our district, students take the standardized tests if the IEP says they do, and they don't take it if it says they don't. We modify. We read it to the one's whose parents want it read to them, if their disability is in reading. These are scored separately and are not sent in. The other spec. ed. scores - the ones without modifications - are sent in with all the rest of them.
Lisa/3 - I feel their frustrations!
Kristink31 - Kathleen...*L*...it's everywhere, not just here...I went to an inclusion workshop on Tuesday night and had the same problem!!
Fran - Our state scores are supposed to include evryone but some districts don't include everyuone to inflate their scores
spec. ed tchr. - Our kids have to take the test on grad3e level but we don't aggregate the scores in with whole class.
Kristink31 - teachie...in PA it's according to what the IEP says as well...They can either take it without modifications, with modifications or take an alternate assessment
teachie - PDD is similar to autism - in fact, I think it is classified as a type of autism. This student is the only one I have been around that is diagnosed with it. I used to substitute in his classroom before I got my job at the middle school. He was quite difficult to deal with. He seemed very autistic, except that he also moved around a lot.
sue - one last question before I log off-- do you thik inclusion is working?
Farmer Girl - I have never seen an IEP of any of the students that come to my class..We do get a short synopsis of a few things...very confidential I guess
Beth67 - Teachie, I've worked with Autistic kids... it can be a real challenge :-)
Mary K&1 - sue, yes, if it's done right
Kristink31 - sue...YES...for some students...it's not for all special ed kids!!
spec. ed tchr. - Sue, I think it COULD work given the right support.
Nancy - my students do an alternate portfolio, which is scored by the state and each school gets the score as they do on all our kids, distinguished, proficient, apprentice, and novice
teachie - Sue - it is like whole language - it depends on who is teaching it and what that person defines it as.
Beth67 - Sue, yes I do, but only if it's done right! With teamwork, collaboration, communication, and supports!
Kristink31 - Farmer Girl, as a regular ed teacher, you are legally responsible for what is in the IEP...by all means you can read that IEP!
Farmer Girl - If it works for even just one that it has helped that one.. the social aspect is very important
Lisa/3 - Sue, only with enough support.
Nancy - Right support with the right reg. ed teacher
Kristink31 - BETH67.....YOU SAID THAT PERFECTLY!!
Farmer Girl - Kristi..do I ask to see their IEPS?
Farmer Girl - Beth I do agree!!
Beth67 - Kristin, I've been trying to beat that into the heads of people around here :-)
Kristink31 - Farmer Girl, there should be a copy in the cumulative folder. But, you could also ask the special ed teacher for a copy.
sue - those wer my thoughts to, just wish we could make it more effective in our area. there's just not enough support. Out supt is oushing for more and more kids in reg ed classes. It;s getting more and more difficult for them to eval kids and place them in spec ed
teachie - Farmer Girl - YES< YES. You are legally responsible for any student in your classroom. You need to make sure you see the IEP so you can make sure you are following it!
Lisa/3 - SOunds like my area, Sue
Kristink31 - sue...the key is support and a lot of districts don't have enough money to give adequate support systems
Farmer Girl - Are the laws changing for these students?
sue - theya re complaining about the high cost of special ed and want more "inclusion" but don't provide the means to make it work
Kristink31 - spec. ed chr...nice chatting...good luck
Farmer Girl - teachie have never been told that..none of us have..thanks
Kristink31 - Beth67, didn't you say you were a regular ed teacher?! We need more like you! *S*
Beth67 - Unfortunately, I think what it boils down to in a lot of areas is the almighty dollar! These kids need supports and services, and it's financially better for districts to have them in spec.ed classes. Inclusion means extra $$$
DJM/KY - Now for the self-contained Emotional/Behavior Disorder unit again......does anyone have one?
Kristink31 - Beth67...there you go again, right on girl!! :->
Nancy - Part of what makes it work is natural support and friendships they can only build in a reg. classroom
Farmer Girl - Do schools get gov. and state support for these kids..i do believe they do..Eh does at our school and I know I get more vocational money for each special needs student that I have..they push for this ...it makes the school money
Beth67 - Kristin, yes, I am a reg ed teacher. No formal spec.ed training!
Lisa/3 - Really sounds like my area, Sue!
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...in my former district...the teacher of that program is one of my best friends...are you for it or not?
Beth67 - DJM, we have two at my elementary school
DJM/KY - kristin......sorry to ask......but......what does the *S* mean?
Kristink31 - Nancy...you got it!
teachie - IDEA makes a lot of thins more clear. Talk to the special ed director for your local agency. Special Ed teachers have been legally responsible for a long time. Regular ed teachers can be taken to court if they are not following the IEP. We were all informed of that in our college classes.
Kristink31 - DJM/KY....*S*=SMILE!
Kristink31 - I've heard of regular ed teachers being fined in excess of $20,000 for not fulfilling the IEP
Farmer Girl - Beth...I think every teacher should have to have several classes in working with the "special student" but most elem teachers don't even take but one class and that may be entitled working with the exceptiional child
DJM/KY - Kristin....yes.....we have several who were in an EBD unit in elementary.....should still be there but high school doesn't have one......dir. of spec. ed. won't give us teacher for one either.....even though documentation and IEP's state it.....had to change IEP to reflect what school had to offer.....and yes i know that is illegal....
Kristink31 - Beth67, then you deserve a gold star!! Your special education teacher and all the students are lucky to have someone with your beliefs!
teachie - Kris - it is really frightening - and we have so many things to watch out for now. mMost of us are burning out this year - we all look like zonbies walking around.
Kathleen - Well, Farmer, the trend (or pendulum swing) right now is, EVERYONE works with the exceptional child
Nancy - Natural supports and friendships are hard to build if a student always has an adult with them
Kristink31 - DJM/KY....Ahhh!!! I understand...
Beth67 - Thanks Kristin :-) I really believe in it
Farmer Girl - Our school has just instituted an EH room and teacher..my daughter in laws first teachng job..what a challenge!!
Mary K&1 - Kathleen, that's how it was when I started teaching, there were no sp. ed. classes :)
teachie - What is EH? emotionally handicapped?
Bev/CA - We have two communicatively handicapped classes at our school. They're being mainstreamed into the lower grade classrooms. It seems to be working okay.
sue - I teach a program for at risk 4 yr olds. A lot of my babies end up in special ed.that's why i'm so concerned about how they are handled once they leave me.
DJM/KY - teachie.....yes....
Kathleen - right, you assumed that every child had to be accepted and accommodated in the classroom
Farmer Girl - She has four students and they did not want to give her an aide..she is young and naive..told her to demand one..but do it tactfully..she got one..not trained but she is a good aide
Nancy - Most reg. ed teachers don't want to learn about sp. ed. say it is not their responsibility. BUT IT IS
Mary K&1 - The down side - the drop out rate was higher then
teachie - Kathleen - funny how educators think we have to change to some bright new idea - that turns out to be an old idea revisited.
Beth67 - You can't be afraid to ask for what you need!
DJM/KY - I did an EBD unit last year with 10 teenage boys.....by myself.....NO AIDE!!!!!
sue - nancy, many reg ed techers want to know more about spe ed but they are overworked as it is
Kathleen - yes, drop out rate WAS higher
Farmer Girl - Nancy it sure is..I wish I would have had to take classes in this area..home ec now called FACS gets many many mainstreaamed students
Bev/CA - I have no included students in my classroom this year (at this point), but 19 of my 27 are either resource specialist children or Title I. Up until this year, I've always had included students.
Kristink31 - teachie...*L*...I agree...it's just a big circle...what goes around, will come around again!
Kathleen - just new terminology for old concepts
DJM/KY - Sue here they think it is our responsibility.....
Farmer Girl - DJM how did you do it..you must be one tough cookie
Kristink31 - Bev/CA, that's a large % of special needs children, how's it working?
DJM/KY - If they had not liked me I would have been permanently committed to my grave.....they were severe....
Beth67 - DJM, I've found that to be the case with most reg.ed teachers... they say that if they wanted to work with spec.ed kids, that's what they wouldve gotten their degree in!
Nancy - I know some reg. ed. teachers want to know more but there are more who don't
teachie - The law now requires that a regular education teacher attend all staffings. Have any of you regular education teachers attended one yet? Our teachers are really complaining. We have been doing this all along - and at all hours. Now that the regular ed teachers are involved, the district has decided that it had better keep all the staffings to school hours.
Bev/CA - Kristink31, I'm not sure how it's working at this point. They seem to be showing improvement, but we all know that it's sometimes a case of "here today, gone tomorrow." It's frustrating at times.
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...I give you lots of credit, that's a TOUGH job!!
Farmer Girl - Why so many special needs students in the 90's..were these products of seventies(parents) .
Kristink31 - teachie, our teachers would definitely have a problem unless it happens during CONTRACT HOURS...
Bev/CA - FG, I think you're right...products of the 70s.
sue - sorry, my mouse is sticky! djm, i understand that and accomodations are made for the students when they are in the classroom. But, part of me wonders if we are not doing the students a disservice by placing them in a clssroom woith a teacher who is nost specifically trained to help them meet their fullest potential using the methods that will best suit them. Sometimes it seems to make more sense to me. i wouldn't give my babies to someone who was trained in high school math and expect them to do as good a job as i do. So, why do we do that with special kid in a reg class?
teachie - Beth - I wish all teachers could realize that all children have special needs. They aren't paper dolls. Nor are they drones.
Rubies - I understand that it is easier to teach students that are eager to learn and easy to manage, but the reason why some(most) of us became teachers. Being able to help students who cry out for help. Inclusion is a good policy as long as the special supports are not taken away from the student resulting in failure.
Lisa/3 - As a regular ed teacher, I have gone to trainings, workshops, etc. to try to learn more about my special needs kids. I want to meet their needs in my classroom. But I have a problem with getting support in my classroom.. I am lucky if I get 30 minutes
DJM/KY - Farmer......i think that spec. ed. kids attract to each other.....especially when in high school.....they stick with own kind.....then they have kids......we will have jobs forever....
Farmer Girl - We talked about this one day in the lounge..did many of these parents injest harmful drugs during the 70s?
Kristink31 - What are some of your ideas in ways to report progress towards goals (new with IDEA)? Our report cards go out next week and I have to report progress toward goals.....
Farmer Girl - DJM that is true..the cycle is hard to break..
Beth67 - What is IDEA?
sue - farmer- they probably did and they didn't say the word no!
Kristink31 - Too many regular ed teachers think of special needs kids as "yours" not "OURS"!!
DJM/KY - Kristin.....that is a great question......I have over 30 kids to report on .......
Farmer Girl - We have more students than I can ever remember that are labeled ld or eh or mmh why??
teachie - I really don't think we have more special ed kids, but I do believe more ACT like they are. There is so little structure in their lives. They aren't developing appropriate coping skills. they are developing survival skills instead. In our building, 22% of the kids are on the special ed roster. We are swamped. Our local agency is fighting to get that number back to the 10-11 percent it should be. The regular ed. teachers need to realize that there are just more kids with more problems, and they themselves need to be part of the solution.
Kristink31 - DJM/KY...Ugh...and I go back to my previous question about how to report on a student that I have contact with maybe once per week!! AH!
Beth67 - Kristin, I agree. But right now I am mainstreaming an Autistic child whose spec.ed teacher has the attitude of "hers" and not "ours," and I'm working hard to change that!
sue - kris, they are all "our" kids but everyone has a special area of strength in teaching. Not every reg ed teacher can do a good jo with a special ed kid and it'snot fair to the kids
teachie - IDEA in the Individuals with Disabilities ACT. It is the special education law.
Kristink31 - Beth67, I guess that's a step closer to OURS than is yours...??? *L*
Farmer Girl - The one EH kid we have cusses everyday..head butts, etc..it is okay because he is EH..any other kid would get kicked out of class but not this kid..he is something else..a holy terror
DJM/KY - I think that I am just going to use progress reports and 9 weeks and semester grades for my progress.....don't know how else to do it....
Kristink31 - Sue, I agree, but my point is...we're all there for all of them. There should be no YOURS vs. MINE....
teachie - Beth - bless you. most of our regular ed teachers won't claim the kids. They call them "Your kids"
Beth67 - I'm working with kind of an opposite problem now, with a spec.ed teacher who isn't really willing to "let go"
Farmer Girl - We have one autistic student at our school i will have him in my foods class with his aide..that will help
Kristink31 - DJM, do you have a special form that you're suppose to use? Our district created on, but it is very general...
sue - teachie, we saw a rise in the number of kids who acted like ed/bd when the parents todl them to act up for the "crazy money' from Social Security
Nancy - Beth, maybe she is afraid that you have an attitude towards sp. ed
Kristink31 - Sue, you've got to be kidding, right?!
Farmer Girl - Our special ed teachers are pretty good, but sometimes more protective of "their" children
DJM/KY - Kristin.....we have a form to keep progress on goals on but we don't send it home......just send reg. report cards, progress reports, etc. home.....
Lisa/3 - I guess my situation is unique. Our special ed teacher tell me that these kids are my problem, not hers.
sue - krs, you're not understanding what I'm saying. Yes, all teachers are there for the kids but if they can meet their potential best by being with one sepcial ed teacher rther than included with an unwilling reg ed teacher which would be better
Kristink31 - I love being in the regular ed room and being there for ALL the children. None of the kids even know that I'm a special ed teacher. They just think they're lucky enough to have 2 teachers this year!!
Bev/CA - Two years ago, I was at a school that had two autistic classes. I had three children mainstreamed into my class.
sue - kris, no I'm not. The kids will ask you if you filled out the papers for thier crazy money.
sue - krs, that's the way it should be
Bev/CA - FG, I agree with you about the SPED teachers....they are a class to be admired. They are the true nurturers.
Kristink31 - sue...I understand what you're saying now, thanks...it's just some regular ed teachers don't think special ed kids are any of their problem, worry, etc.
Farmer Girl - One very big point that is going before the state right now(indiana) is the fact that special ed students have to pass the ISTEP steps...This is crazy..these kids don't even get a class rank..butthey have to pass this ridiculous test..that's our educators in office
Farmer Girl - ISTEP test...not steps sorry
Rubies - Don't regular educational teachers go to workshops and learn about special education students?
Beth67 - Bev, how did that work with the Autistic kids? One child of ours is moving on to 3rd grade next year, and the teachers are freaking out about having to have him. Do you find it difficult at the 5th grade level to include?
sue - kris, one yr my class was basically like a special ed class, 8/20 were high needs and several have now been placed. I have the untost respect for the reg special ed teacher!
Farmer Girl - Do any of your students have to pass a state test like all of the others?
Kristink31 - Rubies...I WISH!! *L*
Lisa/3 - Rubies, I did.
Bev/CA - Beth, I've never found it difficult to include, but people are cut from different patterns (if that makes any sense).
teachie - The students in my room - mostly - don't want to go to regular classes. They don't feel they fit in. I felt so awful last week. I managed to get three of my Communications students into the Team-taught class. When they didn't show up for our class, I had to explain to the other students that they were now in a different class and that I would miss them, too. One of the students said "You mean they are with the normal kids?" I wanted to cry. I just acted goofy and said "What, you don't think my class is normal?'' He laughed and it helped a little.
DJM/KY - Farmer.....our accountability testing that says if we get rewarded or sanctioned is the same.....our spec. ed. get the same test, graded the same, etc......its not fair.....most can't do it even if they get modifications.....
Nancy - What's so difficult about including an autistic kid
Farmer Girl - Rubies I have been asked to go to a few because I have so many in my classes..i dont think many teachers go to any meetings of this type
sue - bev, that's what i was saying to kris
Beth67 - Rubies... most don't, but some do... I remember going to workshops during my maternity leave to prepar for teh upcoming year.
Kristink31 - Bev...we need more like you and Beth!!
Beth67 - Bev, do you find it difficult to meet the academic goals for your Autistic child?
sue - nancy, i included the autisitic class of 3 kids in several of my special actvities. You could nver tell what would overstimulate them.
Farmer Girl - That is so true DJM..when do these people ..our legislators get the message..
Kristink31 - teachie...I know that feeling!!
Bev/CA - Beth, heck yes....it's difficult. No two ways about that. But the child needs a decent break, you know?
Kristink31 - DJM, even with their IEP & all the modifications they still are graded the same?!
DJM/KY - Kristin....yes they are.....same as regular ed.....no differences......
Kristink31 - DJM...unbelievable!!
Rubies - I don't understand why school districts don't make these workshops a must. It's like they are turning a blind eye to very special students.
Farmer Girl - These same kids are not expected to have to do other tests etc. but they are expected to pass an accountability test ..does not make sense..many articles have been in our newspapers about this..written by special ed teachers..way to go teachers..keep on being the students advocates..someone has to!!
DJM/KY - Farmer.....ours is the same test.....
Kristink31 - DJM, doesn't make sense, does it?!
Beth67 - Bev, it's the same at my school.
DJM/KY - Kristin.....not when it determines if the state dept. comes in and take over our school....or if we get rewarded....
Kristink31 - Bev, the most successful inclusion setting is one where the regular ed teacher and the parents are supporters of it!
teachie - I decided not to vote for anyone who said "Every child will read by grade three." Wow - I won't vote for anyone that stupid! They have been in office too long and out of touch with reality!
Rubies - What kind of modal are displaying for our students? Just because someone is different or needs special help; they become outcasts. We live together. Yes there are places and things that we do that can only be done one way, but we share so many more things.
Nancy - The problem is for the LD, MMD, OHI, EBD and others, is that if they get a diploma employers want to know that they successfully complete HS, which is why they take tests. I don't necessarily agree, my students will receive certificate of completion which will make it difficult for them to find jobs
Lisa/3 - Our teachers had no choice. We went total inclusion of all special needs students with no options for resource room pull outs. A lot of teachers were uneasy.
Kristink31 - Lisa/3....any preparation for those teachers?
Beth67 - Lisa, how is that going?
Lisa/3 - limited preparation
Lisa/3 - Well, I believe I'm handling it well, but the first year I spent the first three months crying after school
Nancy - What' s the real difference between sp. ed and gifted. You are suppose to modify the assignments for both??????
Kristink31 - Nancy, even gifted students have IEP's
trish - we have s special ed teacher who rotates through wtith the students and she is good but it is really still a major problem
Lisa/3 - I had 25 kiddos, 2 EMR, 1 severe behavior...
Nancy - But if a reg. teacher has to do the gifted, why not spe. ed. at least some
trish - their doesn't seem to be anyone at the top (as in legislation) who has a plan on how exactly this is suppose to be carried out.... so it changes a little almost daily
Kristink31 - Nancy, my school has a teacher for ATP (Academically Talented Program)...she does pull the gifted kids out and she does hold IEP's just like I do for the L.D. kids
trish - we do the best we can but it seems like we are shooting in the dark on some days because none of us feel as though we are legally meeting all the IEP's...on the other hand the top 50% of the students are really starting to bloom and the same thing happend last year
Lisa/3 - I was so frustrated...I felt like a complete failure. I kept wondering, how can I teach this little guy to count, this one not to punch and bite, and yet see that the others learn to multiply and divide
Kristink31 - Nancy, again, since the child has an IEP--the regular ed teacher IS responsible. But, we're fortunate in our district to also have a teacher for the gifted program. She does many enrichment activities and consults with the regular ed teachers.
Kristink31 - This has been great, but I'm getting extremely tired!! I'd love to have another of these sessions in the near future ....
Kristink31 - Again, I'd like to post the URL of my web site...visit when you have a chance, I have a whole page for inclusion topics & links...
Kristink31 - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2967
Kristink31 - Thanks for the stimulating discussion and GOOD LUCK to you all!!
