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Mary K&1 - Tonight we'll be discussing "keeping it easy" and the language limited child
sandy - Is "keeping it easy" from the article about book support in higher levels?
kinderkate - Limited English speakers or English speakers or both? HI GIGI gtsy
Mary K&1 - How many here feel that you have a hard time keeping it easy for the child?
sandy - Sometimes I think I keep it too easy in the higher levels
Mary K&1 - Kinderkate, both
kinderkate - Absolutely, Mary K - others tell me that is why my lessons always go over 30 minutes. This is one of my biggest problems.
Meach - I agree Sandy. That risk is present.
Mary K&1 - sandy, why do you say that?
kinderkate - But I keep thinking that if I don't push they will NEVER get out.
sandy - they seem to do well in the running record the next day. I'm just concerned about too much support. Then when they go to be tested, they have to do a cold read.
Meach - There is a real trend now to make things "high level". I think we all question whether or not we are high or low enough.
Mary K&1 - The higher levels are when most of us make it less than easy
sandy - I have really started to pull back support in the higher levels. I want to see how they do on there own before testing
Nan - Sandy, What kind of book intro do you do at the higher levels?
LeAnn - I feel that sometimes it is hard to keep it easy
lisa - My main problem at the higher levels is keeping it to 30 minutes also. I also tend to give too much support, i think on my new book introductions.
Dot - It is hard to keep the balance with keeping it easy and keeping the child accelerated
Doug - I was warned by my TL not to overdue on the PM's with my second language learners. It is a good idea to alternate with rhyme and repetition texts such as the Wright Group Storybox stuff. any reactions?
Mary K&1 - I see, but I hear that Marie wants us to keep supporting til the end, maybe that's why we need to get into higher levels as soon as possible
sandy - Nan, I do very limited intro. Picture walk and maybe a predict and locate if there is a concept they might have difficulty with
kinderkate - How can we keep it easy and still accelerate? Remember I am Tch in Trng and since I started in November haven't discontinuted anyone. So it is still scary to "trust the process."
sandy - Why didn't you start until Nov.?
Doug - kinderkate- keeping it easy is using one teaching point focusing on meaning and staying betwen 90 and 95%
Mary K&1 - People can't learn when they are feeling frustrated
Nan - they keep telling us if you are working in the child's "zone" there should only be one or two things to work on and everything else should be easy.
kinderkate - Some say the PM's are easier for ESL's because there isn't that much vocabulary to deal with. You know when they can't figure out the word because they don't have a name for the picture.
Me - Does your state have a twenty week in and then out guideline?
kinderkate - agree Doug with varying the types of texts, though, because they get different things from different types.
Mary K&1 - Doug, add to that, keeping it to 30 min
Mary K&1 - Me, that's the way it is supposed to be everywhere - 20 and out or discontinued sooner
kinderkate - Just this year our district is limiting to 20 weeks. Because of year round no one has gotten there yet.
LeAnn - Sometimes I feel that when I move quickly through some levels to get in the 90-94 range the student misses some concepts so then it gets hard very quick. Do you know what I mean?
Gigi/MO - I hope this is right but I've heard that in the higher levels you don't have to do the cut-up story so that can save on time especially as the stories get longer and harder.
Mary K&1 - LeAnn, yes, I understand
Jill - yes Gigi that's what my TL said to us, too
Nan - I haven't heard that Gigi
sandy - gigi, I hold back on the writing if I think they are strong enough and concentrate on reading
LeAnn - Is there a TL out there, what about omit the cut-up?
Doug - Gigi- I was told that as children go up in levels so does their fluency and phrasing and hence, speed is not a concern......
lisa - I've never heard that you don't have to do the cut up story. That seems pretty important.
Jill - BUt they have to be strong in their writing
Mary K&1 - We must be sure that the strategies are there - if not it can fall apart if you go too high too soon
Gigi/MO - I've heard 2 TL's say that about the cut-up stories.
kinderkate - In our lesson last week our TL said in the higher levels we may cut out cut-ups, and may limit writing. She said Marie says so in BL but I haven't had time to look it up, yet. She said marie said that higher lessons will look very different than the usual.
Nan - When the student is getting ready to discontinue you can really see them making connections in reading and writing and reading and writing new words.
Doug - Sandy if children are flatlining, one of the main things Clay asks us is to look at if there is enough writing
Mary K&1 - I don't think that any part of the lesson should be left out - maybe once or twice - if you have a very good reason, but don't make a habit of it
sandy - We were told by our TL last CC not to move them up during Roaming. Anybody else hear that?
lisa - Wow, I'll have to try that as some of my children get close to discontinuing. It'll give me much needed time if I don't always do the cut up story.
Nan - We were told that they should move up at least four levels!
Gigi/MO - So even if they are on Level 14 and higher--do the cut-up sentence?
kinderkate - No, matter of fact our TL said just because the OS gives one level that doesn't mean you start at that level in lessons. Student may have "learned" something without you teaching because of modeling by teacher.
kinderkate - Wow - Nan that seems steep for roaming.
Mary K&1 - sandy, yes, we were told that also - I did, and I can see the benefit in it - the kids had a chance to get fluent with what they could do and they started feeling like real readers
Gigi/MO - We're told to get them up as high as we can during roaming!! I had one go from a level 9 to a 12 or 13!!
lisa - I don't think that there's a cut and dry formula about moving a child through levels during Roaming. You need to foolow the child.
sandy - I agree, kinderkate. I don't know why she told us that. I'm really upset that she did?
kinderkate - However, it may depend on where they start. If Levels 1-3 are all about patterning, directionality and one to one, many will get that during roaming.
Doug - kinderkate- if they know "can" and "I" there will be many words that will be learned incidentally when the sticker book is made...even if you are not trying to teach
kinderkate - Darn = left my GB at school - but it's supposed to be in there: TL said later lessons will look different per Marie.
Jill - Gigi, did u say that y had a child go into roaming at a level 9??? Wow, all of my students started at a level B
Gigi/MO - Mary--My second rounders came in on a level 9, level 12, and level 16 o17!!! Those were our next lowest kids!!
kinderkate - Absolutely, Doug. We were also told to used leveled readers in Roaming to read together, read alouds etc. Some learn from that, then there is always the stuff they always knew but we didn't get at the time of OS.
sandy - 2 of mine started at Level 3. The other at 5
Jill - In fact my tl is coming out on Wednesday to discontinue one possibly two
Nan - Gigi, Are you in a fully implemented school?
kinderkate - Man - Gigi - we are in different worlds.
Mary K&1 - kinderkate, word is that Marie wants to pull the part where she talks about limited book intros - she wants us to support clear to the end of the child's program
lisa - Mine were at B, 1, 3 and 5 (rare!)
kinderkate - All of mine started at B.
sandy - 2nd rounders at B?
Doug - mary- is that from Clay or barbara Watson?
Dot - 2nd round, level B,B,3,4
Mary K&1 - Are you talking about second rounders?
kinderkate - Mary K - I definitely agree in a good book intro. I think TL was talking about cut - ups and writing. Not cutting it out, but not every day.
LeAnn - My 2nd round kids were at 8-9
Gigi/MO - Nan--Yes we have 2 RR teachers for 3 first grades!! (only 27 first graders)
Mary K&1 - Doug, Watson said that that's what Clay said
Jill - yes I have one that I will start RAK tomorrow she is at level B, she transfered in last month to our school> makes me wonder what she was doing at her other school
kinderkate - NO - I am still on first round - longest has been in 11 weeks.
Dot - you can see the concern for keeping it easy and still accelerating
sandy - Wow, Gigi...I'm the only one for 5 sections
Nan - you are lucky! What part of MO are you from?
kinderkate - Gigi - you do RR in upper grades?
Doug - Mary- I once heard Clay say to never quote her on anything
kinderkate - sorry - RAK?
LeAnn - Sandy, do you serve all 5 sections?
Jill - Roaming around the known
Nan - Clay is brilliant!!
sandy - Basically, yes...I'm really pushing for another 2 rr teachers
Mary K&1 - Doug, then who do we quote?!!
kinderkate - AAAAA Doug - but we are always being told to go to the GB>
Mary K&1 - Anyone have any ESL kids?
Dot - A great help is a good K teacher as well as strong first grade teachers. We do best when we work as a team.
Mary K&1 - I don't, but have reading about them on the Listserv
Gigi/MO - Nan--I'm in the central part of MO---40 miles from Hannibal!! KK--I only serve first graders in RR!! I also teach EL to K-2!!
sandy - We DON'T have strong first grade teachers!!
Doug - OOPs I started something. Personally, I love hearing Barbara Watson and when she told me to cross out something in the guidebook, I did.
kinderkate - Back to keeping it easy for the Language Limited Child - I seem to spend so much time doing things like going outside and seeing the difference between a fence and a gate, or acting out the difference of "said" and "shouted". Yes, with ESL kids,
sandy - Doug, what did she tell you to cross out?
Me - Who is Barbara Watson?
LeAnn - Gigi, how long ago did you train?
Mary K&1 - Doug, you were there when she said it?
Mary K&1 - Cool!!
Nan - Gigi-I'm 60 miles south of St. Louis and serve 3 rdg rec. and four first grade El classes
Doug - Me- Barbara Watson is in charge of running RR in NZ
Dot - Me, if you can ever get to hear Barbara, run there. She is Marie's left hand.
Mary K&1 - Me, Barbara Watson is second in command - Marie's neighbor, or so I'm told
sandy - I heard Clay this summmer...very exciting!
Nan - Was Barbara Watson at the Ohio conference?
Doug - Sadie- she was at Sacramento last year
Sadie - Kinder, at west coast one of the TL's had an accordian book from Rigby that had text on one side, but the other side was blank so that you could record the child's text. They are laminated so they are easy to clean. The pictures are great for generating oral language.
LeAnn - Watson was not at Ohio this year.
Jill - I was able to hear Clay lst week at NYU she was outstanding.
Gigi/MO - LeAnn--This is my third year teaching RR and second teaching EL!! Nan--Did you go to the MARRE conf in St. Louis last weekend??
Sadie - Doug, I know. i saw her there! :)
Melinda - I'm in training and having a hard time deciding what to do for making and breaking. I understand the processes but how do you decide which one a child needs at any given time?
kinderkate - Good Idea, Sadie - Do any of you change the text for ESL's
sandy - Sadie, we use the foldout from Rigby in our first grade guided reading class. I really like them.
Doug - Melinda- look at substitutions from the running record. Look at the writing....what have you been taking to fluency?
Mary K&1 - Melinda, during that portion of the lesson, move up through the stages of making and breaking as Clay has them listed in the GB
kinderkate - Yes - Melinda - I made the mistake of doing ALL in a lesson. Then found out I am supposed to only do a minute or so.
Sadie - Melinda, it can be a tricky balance. You really need to think about what the child can do when taking words apart while reading. you want to see those 'ehoes" in the lesson,
Bobbi - Hi everyone - I have two 2nd rounders in early lessons and 2 Roaming. The two in early lessons pay absolutely no attention to print - any suggestions?
kinderkate - Are they touching the words, Bobbi?
Sadie - Bobbi, are you choosing books that contain a known or two for them to self-monitor?
Mary K&1 - Bobbi, prompt "Does it look right?"
Doug - Bobbi- no self-monitoring? Perhaps taping very predictable level 1 and 2's for a little reading work.
Bobbi - No, my TL told me because they are 2nd rounders to get their fingers away from the words -
Sadie - Bobbi, do they have 1-1 under control?
Nan - Yes I agree Sadie then how about monitor for first letter?
Sadie - Bobbi, those early behaviors need to be established.
Bobbi - Sadie - when I go over the text with them or reread a line and ask them to point or do one on one matching they do that successfully
Melinda - I thought you didn't take their finger out until you were sure they were looking and needed to work on fluency.
Mary K&1 - Bobbi, fingers go out when the child demonstrates 1-1, if they haven't, then fingers are in
Doug - Bobbi- let them check for themselves on things
sandy - Mine are the same, Bobbi. They are not taught to attend to print in the classroom. They basically memorize their stories.
Nan - Bobbi--What do you do with the cut up sentence?
Sadie - How many knowns, Bobbi?
Mary K&1 - When they know about 1-1, then they can start pointing with their eyes and start monitoring 1-1
kinderkate - I agree with the fingers bit - if they aren't attending to print they are needed.
Bobbi - Melinda - me too - but myTL seems to change her mind about things - often contradicts herself leaving our entire class confused. Oh, Doug by checking on it themselves do you mean...when they have made an error I ask them to reread the sentence where the error was and fix it. The one little boy corrects the word/words immediately - sometimes my little girl does - not always
Doug - Bobbi- only if it affects meaning. this is the trick, hold off until meaning breaks down.
Mary K&1 - Even when they read something correctly, ask them if it looked right, not just when they didn't monitor - keep them thinking
Bobbi - Ah, Doug - must be a woman's problem - I'm too fast - at least with the 1st reading to correct at times - even when meaning hasn't broken down. Tomorrow I promise to try to hold my tongue and see what happens.
Doug - Bobbi- rereading at all times may cause word perfect reading, lack of risk taking. Just recently, I was reminded by a veteran that our goal is to teach problem solving not percentages, etc.
sandy - Bobbi, sometimes it is hard to hold the tongue. I'm still working on that!!
kinderkate - Yes, Mary K - if we only ask if there was a problem when there is - then they don't self monitor - but wait for us.
Doug - Bobbi- when i get frustrated, and I tape record myself, I usually have more than one teaching point and it is usually item-oriented
Bobbi - Mary K & 1 - another excellent suggestion - I didn't do that much with my first rounders but swore I would next time - I'll also work on that tomorrow - I really want this to work. I'm the only RR and we have 8 first grade classes with the promise of possibly another RR next year.
Melinda - Bobbi - I used to correct way too fast but it is so amazing to watch when they actually start problem solving. They can't believe how exciting it is when they use the lovely brains!!
Gigi/MO - Bobbi--Where are you located?
Mary K&1 - Oh my goodness, Bobbi, you sure have your hands full!!
kinderkate - OK here I go showing my ignorance again - Doug, item-oriented as opposed to ......?
Doug - Mary- good one, I forget to do this too.
kinderkate - Bobbi - but you only work with 1 or 2 teachers, right?
Gigi/MO - Doug--I liked the percentages/problem-solving quote!!
Bobbi - Gigi/MO - New Jersey -right outside of Philadelphia. City is called Gloucester and it is a special needs district
Doug - kinderkate- reading work (sm, sc, xchecking or searching)
kinderkate - Did I miss something - Percentages/problem-solving quote???
Mary K&1 - Let them go one for a while, like Doug said, maybe even finish the book, and then tell them to go back and show you the tricky part - they know where they had trouble, and ask them what they need to know or do to solve it
kinderkate - So by item-oriented you mean something that only pertains to a particular word?
Doug - kinderkate or something that is only focused on the visual cueing system
Bobbi - kinderktate- I went to all 8 initially and tested the 2 lowest in the class and selected the four lowest over all. Turned out to be 3 from 1 class and one from another. My current 2nd rounders are from 4 different classrooms
Mary K&1 - Item and opposed to strategies
kinderkate - OH - yes - just recently I have asked students to show me a part they had a problem with after rr and we go over that. Then I pick something.
Mary K&1 - We must remember to teach for strategies
sandy - Bobbi, I did the same as you.
kinderkate - Wow - that's tough, Bobbi. We know have 5 RR teachers, but when we had only 1 she picked 2 teachers to work with.
Bobbi - kinderkate - I asked my Principal early in August if I could choose the two most cooperative teachers to work with just starting out - he said of course, then the other teachers had a fit and he told me I wasn't being fair - I had to see who was lowest overall - pretty typical in my building
kinderkate - Yes, Mary K - that is difficult to remember, but a must.
sandy - Bobbi, don't you feel lonely sometimes. It would be so nice to have someone in my school that "understands"!!
Mary K&1 - There's a timer that is sold on the RR site that is really great. It beeps at 10 mins, 20 mins and 25 mins into the lesson - really helps you to keep the pace going
kinderkate - Guess we are lucky - 2 teachers is the limit according to our TL's and district.
kinderkate - I need THAT timer, Mary. Which site is it?
Me - What is the address of the rr site?
Mary K&1 - here it is http://www.readingrecovery.org/rr/rr.htm
Mary K&1 - the timer is on this page http://www.readingrecovery.org/es/prdcts.htm
Bobbi - Sandy - lonely is putting it mildly. No one understands or even has inkling of what RR is but they all want to tell me WHAT it is - EASY because I only have one student. How frustrating
kinderkate - Yes - Bobbi - that is difficult. Have them read that part in the intro of the GB about the difficult part of RR - working with lowest, etc.
Mary K&1 - Bobbi, they start to realize when the "miracles" start to happen, just how important you are
kinderkate - What do you do for the rest of the day, Bobbi.
Gigi/MO - Bobbi--Hang in there!! They'll find out what a good program it is!!
Me - Our district wants to put another rr teacher in our building but upper grade teachers are having a fit about losing their Title 1 time.
kinderkate - If we were all fully implemented - we wouldn't need as much Title 1 money!!!!
Bobbi - Everyone out there need a laugh. One teacher today asked me at what stage I give the children a list of words to studay each night. I told her we never do that and she insisted I was wrong. Supposedly her child was in RR in 1st grade - 3 yrs ago and that is what they did. It also happens to be the school where my training site is - can't wait to talk to my TL about that!
Gigi/MO - Me--what state are you in?
Gigi/MO - Bobbi--I've never heard the list thing either!!
Me - Haven't been able to see any of those miracles yet, so teachers are still wondering about the program's effectiveness.
Gigi/MO - I have done "Your pile, my pile" with high frequency words!!
kinderkate - No list here either, however, it has been suggested to send home cards of KNOWN words for parents to play "MY pile, your pile" to get automatisity.
Bobbi - Me - stick with it - you will. I had two discontinued from 1st round - one no one believed would ever learn to read - he couldn't in September. He discontinued at level 16. The other was a girl who I think just wasn't familiar with out reading series so was pegged in need - once she caught on WOW. My other child went to CST and the 3rd was removed from the district through Division of Youth and Family Services. Have faith in RR - it works.
LeAnn - My TL says she sends the list of high freq words ( go I a , ect) home with students to let parents get these key words down.
kinderkate - Here's a question - I know we keep a list of KNOWN words from writing - but what about the reading words, I can't remember if they have seen a word before in previous books.
Bobbi - LeAnn - your TL must be nice - we were told we're not teaching words only meaning
LeAnn - Those words are only in early lessons
Me - We were told that we could send home a few words to study in the bag with the books.
Bobbi - Me - I'll bring that up with my TL on Wed along with the word list the other teacher mentioned. I'm curious now. I think the children would do well to "practice" some words but don't dare do that right now.
kinderkate - There is a difference between a list of words and a list of KNOWN words, bobbi.
Me - The words in the bag were only to be high frequency words and only at the beginning of the program.
Bobbi - I enjoy these on-line chats very much but I'm either brain dead at the end of the day or computer stupid - tonight took me about 20 minutes before I successfully got on-line. I'll try harder next time!
Mary K&1 - Thanks all, see ya next month!
