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Marv - Welcome!
Juvie - Hi Marv
Paulie - hi Dr Marshall!
ap - Hi Dr. Marshall
Marv - I, everyone.
Paulie - I wondered, Dr Marshall, if you could tell me why we have jails if we believe in your discipline system? Maybe I did not say that right but I hope u get the connection
Ruth - Does anybody know what works as discipline in the secondary level.
Paulie - OK now please explain to Juvie the 4 points hierarchies of your discipline system
Marv - Here is the quickest way to get a summary. Send me an e-mail to Marv@MarvinMarshall.com and I will send you an article when I get back home to California
Marv - RE: Jails We need them for adults. However, if you believe a 7 year old is a 27 year old, then use punishments. T
Marv - We need jails for adults. If you believe a 7 year old is a 27 year old then use coercive punishments.
Juvie - Dr. Marshall I am a teacher in a juvenile jail. What is the alternative for murderers, child molesters, etc. even if they are kids. They are dangerous
Paulie - Juvie, there are 4 hierarchies: A= anarchy B=bullying C=cooperation and D= democracy
Marv - However, if you believe a 7 year old is not an adult, then promote responsibility.
Julie - I started the year asking how do we want our class to be? and then developed the standards (instead of rules) from this discussion.
Marv - The Raise Responsibility actuates (moves people to become) responsible/responsibility.
Juvie - How does a teacher raise responsibility
Julie - It's great the way the questioning directs the child to think about their behavior and at the same time it makes clear that levels A and B are not accepted.
Marv - Alternative to imposed punishment: Elicit an activity so the person has ownership. People do not argue with their own decisions.
Marv - Discipline on the secondary level: The Raise Responsibility System works at any age level in any subject.
ap - It sounds hard to come up with questions that'll make them think about responsibility
Carol - Julie what grade are you teaching
Juvie - Yes, and some of mine do not want to be responsible and will avoid at all costs
Paulie - so then why does society have jails?
Ruth - Do you find posting rules for the class to be effective?
Julie - I used an idea from your book (adapted it a little) with a rather defiant second grade girl who was continuing to be uncooperative. I taped a note on her desk that said "Call T,'s mother." I told her if she showed that she could have self control and follow directions for the rest of the day I would let her throw the note away. Otherwise I would call her mom. She turned her behavior around and at the end of the day asked if she could put it in the trash. I had forgotten all about it!
Carol - I do if the children help establish them and form the consequences
Paulie - the teacher demonstrates procedures there are no rules but self discipline with this I understand
Marv - Julie, they avoid wanting to be responsible for a number of reasons: (1) it's imposed and (2) peer influence. The RRS alters this thinking.
Julie - I teach second in Kingston NY
Marv - Julie, loved your success story
WEEBIE - what grade is this for
Paulie - all grades
Marv - Re: Rules: (1) make them positive and (2) Paulie - Julie type away with your experiences the Dr who wrote the plan is here to help
Juvie - I call them "student expectations" but I do not post. It sets my ODD's off
ap - I have something to add. I left teaching due to discipline problems with kids. All ages. Parents control the school.
Marv - You are not alone re: leaving teaching. 50 per cent do within 5 years. Disruptive behavior is a prime reason.
Ruth - I like the idea about having the students participate in making the rules
Julie - I have had a problem being consistent and often negotiated with kids and/or did not follow thru or let things go too far. I was afraid of saying no or being 'negative.' I submerged myself in a study of management techniques and the philosophy of good discipline verses coercion and control. when I heard about Raise Resp I said "This is it!"
Carol - I like the responsibilities instead of rules, I post them and I take pictures of the children actually following the "rules" they have established.
Paulie - I want to know if the whole school needs to use your program or if it can be successful in individual classrooms?
Paulie - Yes, Julie I wish I knew about it years ago
Marv - Traditional approaches simply do not work in today's society. Teaching toward obedience gets you resistance and rebellion. Promoting responsibility will get you obedience as a natural by-product.
Juvie - Could this system be used in a jail classroom or would it interfere with maximum security issues?
Julie - I use it and no one else does. I asked my principal (he is new) for his support and he said it sounds great and he believes that kids need to learn to make good choices for themselves.
ap - Yes Dr. Marshall. I bought a lot of discipline books.
Juvie - I agree with that Julie
Paulie - Julie maybe you could do an inservice about it at your school or invite Dr Marshall to do it!
Juvie - How does one promote responsibility?
Marv - One teacher can use the RRS and it dramatically changes the classroom environment. If the entire school uses it, the culture of the school changes. More is available at www.MarvinMarshall.com
Julie - I find it is most difficult to keep a neutral or empathetic tone of voice and body language when questioning when I am really feeling annoyed or angry. I think it takes practice and continuing to read and reinforce the importance learning to do this. I realize that when my emotions become involved, it hinders helping the child take responsibility .
Ruth - Marv, can you talk more about promoting responsible behavior in the classroom?
Marv - RE: incarcerated youth. I will be presenting at an incarcerated youth North of New York City next month. Yes, the system can be used with them with some particular points being emphasized--such as level C conformity, the influence of peers and external motivation.
Julie - However, I am finding that the more I feel in command of my classroom rather than at the mercy of the kids, the more relaxed I am and the more I can stay on top of my own self control!
Paulie - hmmmm thought C was cooperation
Juvie - Julie, how long have you been teaching. Over the years I rarely feel annoyed or take things personally. It is a relief LOL
Marv - Re: promoting responsible behavior--It's all on my websites www.MarvinMarshall.com and in the book at DisciplineWithoutStress.com I hesitate taking time to explain the simple system when people who are using the system have questions.
Julie - I also find that just questioning is not enough for many of the kids. They need to have a more concrete experience of what the consequences are of poor choices. I told them that if they needed extra practice being quiet while we had a class meeting, we could practice at recess, but could not take any more class time to discuss it. Then they come in for a few minutes and we practice and they know I mean business but it is not punitive and I just say sometimes we need extra practice with that is hard!
Marv - C=Cooperation in primary grades. In grades 4-12 it is "conformity."
Paulie - but I thought that was why we came to find out how to do it or get others to use it and just reading your site might not be enticing enough.
Julie - I have been teaching 6 years-this is my 7, in public school. My background was more private/progressive so the public school environment was/is a challenge for me!
Marv - Bravo, Julie. You have the idea.
Paulie - good plan Julie How long you been doing this with your class Julie?
Marv - In addition to the RRS, 3 principles are practiced and out described in the article I will send anyone who is interested: (1) Positivity, (2)
Julie - Just since school started after Labor Day.
Marv - 2) the empowerment of choice, and (3) reflection.
Julie - Love and Logic goes nicely with your book- but they miss the importance of practice and modeling.
Juvie - I have a problem with conformity. Conformity is what got my kids in jail. It is not something I wish to promote. Am I misunderstand the concept?
Paulie - You are doing great Julie
Marv - Conformity does not mean regimentation. Yes, you are misinterpreting the concept.
Julie - Conformity is necessary for any community to live together- there are agreed upon standards and procedures to make things work
Paulie - What are the 4 keywords for ABCD for older kids then Dr. Marshall?
Juvie - Thanks Julie that kinda helps
Marv - Bottom: Anarchy, next level on the social development hierarchy: bullying/ bothering/bossing. Both of these are inappropriate classroom behaviors.
Paulie - I like cooperation word better for all ages
Julie - Does anyone else find it difficult to keep the tone of criticism out of your voice when questioning a child who is being disruptive or rude?
Juvie - Me too Paulie
Paulie - those are the ones for younger kids though
Marv - C=Cooperating/ conformity- doing what your are told. D=democracy: taking the initiative to do the right thing (similar to level C) but without being asked.
Julie - Dr Marshall, will you be doing any trainings in the MidHudson Valley of NYS or Westchester?
Marv - Regarding becoming angry.
Paulie - I know and have the chart for the younger kids I don't have your book YET I wondered why the words were different for older kids?
Juvie - Julie what helps me with my tone is to see myself as really wanting the kid to be a better person. I know that criticism means they are much less likely to cooperate if they thing I am down on them. If they know I want to make things better for them, they are much more accepting. Very important in jail. Criticism (perceived) tends to bring out violent tendencies
Marv - The book uses a stoplight to teach impulse control. Using the procedure definitely helps--and it is prime reason why the process reduces teacher stress.
Julie - Juvie- even though I realize this, sometimes my impulses override my intelligence...just what the kids are working on too!!!
Paulie - please explain the stoplight
Juvie - Julie, maybe I am just too old to react anymore LOL. I do remember this problem as a young teacher
jen - is the stoplight the system where each child has a set of colored cards and begins the day on green?
Julie - I meant to introduce the stoplight and forgot about it-thanks for the reminder. However, when an emotion takes hold it can be difficult to keep in check. I don't mean to sound like I am a raving lunatic- its just that sometimes the annoyance creeps into my voice and then I know I blew it!
Julie - The stoplight means Stop, think, Choose
jen - it always sounds good but different types of misbehaviors warrant different consequences don't they?
Paulie - How do you introduce this stoplight Julie/Dr Marshall?
Marv - Red on signal: Gasp a deep breath. This releases the tension the trigeminal nerves send through the body. Yellow: Think of your options (choices). Green: go with your best choice.: Go with your
Julie - I always forget to breath and I think this is key!
Paulie - o that is good I like that Thank you Dr Marshall for those of us that haven't gotten your book yet
Julie - Dr. Marshall would you agree that one approach may not address every behavior problem with every kid?
Paulie - So the stoplight is for the student?
Juvie - LOL Paulie, I think it works for the teacher too!
Marv - RE: different behaviors and different consequences. Yes, they do. The technique, however, is to elicit an activity from the youngster so he has ownership in it and will reflect before his impulses take over. This approach is so much more effective than IMPOSING a consequence, where the youngster has no ownership in it.
Paulie - or the teacher?
Paulie - Hey I am just trying to learn
Paulie - What about the students that won't take ownership of their "problem"
Marv - Dr. Marshall would you agree that one approach may not address every behavior problem with every kid? Yes. But the basic technique plus three others I use works with anyone.
Julie - I am thinking of some extremely difficult second graders I had two years ago and what if I had known this then... they were throwing chairs and running out of the classroom!
Marv - Additional technique (1) Ask the kid for help. Say you have a problem and only he can solve it.
Marv - (2) Put it on the table for a classroom meeting
K Teacher - I teach Kindergarten, and I use a color card system that works with most, but not all students.
Paulie - that is good I have done that. . .
Marv - (3) Tell him not to worry what will happen. (He will and will remain quiet because he doesn't know what will happen.
Paulie - K Teacher I used to use that but no more it doesn't teach responsibility
Julie - I used the card system last year but the problem is that it does not teach self reflection. It works on the principal of punishment
K Teacher - What do you use now?
Julie - Raise Responsibility- that is what we are discussing at the chat!
Paulie - There is a wonderful chart for Dr. Marshall's plan for A,B, C, D
K Teacher - This is the system that is in place for all of our classes, what do you suggest would work better - especially with egocentric K students.
Marv - (4) As outlined in the book, the 4 key questions for changing behavior: (1) What do you want? (2) What are you choosing to do? (evaluation is automatically built in here if what you are choosing to do is not getting you what your want.) (3) What is your plan? (4) What are your procedures for implementing the plan?
Paulie - K Teacher you should check out Dr.Marshall's site http://www/marvinmarshall.com
K Teacher - Thanks, Paulie, I will. I am new here, and have not heard of this plan.
Paulie - I am new to it too K Teacher but am learning
Paulie -
K Teacher - Do you ask those questions to a Kindergarten student? What do you do if they shrug or refuse to answer??
Carol - This plan sounds a lot like what I do in my classroom in a hap hazard way. I am glad I joined this chat to learn new techniques
Julie - It still feels like a lot to remember and learn in order to really implement your approach completely. I am striving for this but I don't think I can learn all the components immediately- I mean internalize them so they are "at my command."
Paulie - K teacher u teach them the 4 hierarchies first by using picture books
Julie - If a child doesn't answer the question "What level is your behavior on?" I ask
Julie - at level is it when you don't follow directions...or whatever the behavior is.
Marv - For a kdg student: AFTER teaching the levels, ask," What can we do so you will operate on levels C or D? Be ready to ask, "What else?" "What else?" "What else?"
Paulie - for A you use Miss Nelson Is Missing for B= Three Pigs C=Snow white and 7 Dwarfs
Paulie - Hole In the Dike
Paulie - is for D
Carol - Dr. Marshal can you give your e-mail address again and where those of us new to your technique should start
K Teacher - I see that I definitely need to check out the web site to get some background information.
Julie - I have used something from Love and Logic that fits nicely with this- when a child doesn't answer or has some farfetched suggestions, ask "Would you like to hear what some other kids have done in a similar situation.?
K Teacher - Never heard of Hole in the Dike.
Marv - The program is NOT a whole lot to learn--and there is only one skill to learn: asking REFLECTIVE QUESTIONS.
Paulie - really good Julie
Paulie - Hole in the Dike is old story from Holland but Green is author and Eric Carle is illustrator of a more recent version
Marv - Marv Marshall's e-mail to receive the short article: Marv@MarvinMarshall.com
Paulie - I found the story online also all printed out but with no pictures
FUSTR - Please, I'm teaching art in NJ for a charter school. This is my first year and I already feel down because the school is a messy with many students with behavior problems.
K Teacher - Maybe I'm shortchanging my students, but I don't know how reflective some of them would or could be about their behavior. Many times it is more impulsive rather than decisive.
Paulie - I would like to know what you do if more than one student is causing disruption at same time doing different things
Marv - The "Hole in the Dike" is the official name of the story about Peter, the little Dutch boy, who took initiative to do the right think by stopping the crack which would have resulted in his town going under water.
Julie - What I find, Dr M is that at the moment of the disruption, when I am teaching the whole class, it can be impractical to follow a line of questioning-this is when I need to remember to postpone the discussion and just isolate the child if she or he doesn't stop disrupting. Is this correct?
Hmmathteacher - I am also a first year teacher teaching in an urban high school and have a class of 30 repeat students, students who failed the class the previous year and are retaking it, and have a lot of problems with that class.
K Teacher - Is that the story on which to model the good behaviors?
Paulie - that story is for Democracy hierarchy which is ideal for all students to reach
3rd teach - Dr. Marshall, Does your book or website offer suggestions for single student disruptions? I'm talking about a very intelligent 3rd grade boy who is having social problems, and as a result is acting out at in appropriate times. His is definitely impulsivity, and he is extreme with his emotions.
Paulie - Julie what do you do if the problem is by more than one student
Marv - With a challenging class: Teach the levels of social development first. Process precedes product; procedures come before content or skill. Give them the choice. Your are choosing not to enjoy art. I am willing to really help you but will not put in my effort until you demonstrate you are capable of acting on level C or D.
K Teacher - That makes sense to me too, Julie. Most of my class is conducted as a whole group, and it's hard to stop in the middle of story time to address a problem.
Juvie - I have found that questioning ODD kids is a time bomb
Marv - The hour has slipped by. I'll be on line the last Wednesday of October 30, 5:00 Pacific Time from Portland, OR at the National Middle School Association Conference.
Hmmathteacher - I have many that don't care and really even wonder why they are even in school
Julie - I most likely would isolate them until I could talk with them.
K Teacher - Thank you for all or your ideas and help. I am off to check out the web site.
Julie - Thank you Dr, Marshall!
Carol - Thank you Dr Marshall
Paulie - This all sounds great but it is hard for me to imagine with a class that has many bullies
Paulie - I wish this time was 2 hrs long and not just one
Julie - I think if you start from Day 1 being clear that some behavior will not be permitted, and then follow through with questioning and giving choices and asking what the child will do to address the problem, it sets a tone.
Julie - Go to the website and download 2 chapters. that can get you started. http://www.DisciplineWithoutStress.com
Paulie - so Julie u would not recommend starting this in the middle of the year?
Juvie - Julie, my kids come and go daily. I have over 600 kids throughout a year for about 2 weeks at a time
Paulie - I have read the site I have printed the chart I get his newsletter but I can't afford his book just yet.
Julie - Goodnite!
Gazette Articles by Dr. Marshall:
- Ronald Reagan and the Art of Influence (June 2009)
- Discipline Is a Liberating Word (May 2009)
- Eliciting vs. Punishments (Apr. 2009)
- Habit vs. Awareness for the 3 Practices and for the Hierarchy of Social Development (Mar. 2009)
- How to Be Consistent (Feb. 2009)
- Teaching is an Art, Not a Science (Jan. 2009)
- Tapping Into Internal Motivation (Dec. 2008)
- People Do Better When They Feel Good (Nov. 2008)
- The Brain and Sleep (Oct. 2008)
- Using a Butterfly Analogy to Explain the Hierarchy of Social Development (Sept. 2008)
- 5 Classroom Tips (Aug. 2008)
- Discipline Without Stress, Inc. (July 2008)
- Visualization (June 2008)
- Promoting Responsibility - Or How Not To (May 2008)
- Immaculate Perception (April 2008)
- A System Is Superior To Talent (Mar. 2008)
- To promote responsibility, Elicit Rather Than Impose (Feb. 2008)
- Understanding Boys (Jan. 2008)
- Descartes' Error: I think; therefore, I am (July 2003)
- Metacognition -- Thinking about Thinking Is Essential for Learning (June 2003)
- Listening Lessons -- How to Help Kids Learn and Comprehend (May 2003)
- Approaches of Outstanding Teachers (Apr 2003)
- Using a Discipline Approach to Promote Learning (Mar 2003)
- Curriculum, Instruction, Classroom Management, and Discipline (Feb 2003)
- Learning and Relationships, The two are inseparable (Jan 2003)
- Accountability in Schools (Dec 2002)
- Suggestions For Motivation (Nov 2002)
- Given Names - When NOT to Use Them and when TO Use Them (Oct 2002)
- The Power Of Hierarchies (Sept 2002)
- Use the Language You Want Learned (Aug 2002)
- Observations From Last Year (July 2002)
- How The Horse Whisperer Trains a Wild Mustang in 30 Minutes (June 2002)
- Using Breath Management for Better Listening and Voice Preservation (May 2002)
- Reducing Stress By Promoting Responsibility--Rather than by Attempting to Manipulate Behavior (Apr 2002)
- Rules Vs. Expectations (Mar 2002)
- How to Achieve 100 Per Cent Student Participation (Feb 2002)
- Positivity, Choice, and Reflection Exercise for Students (Jan 2002)
- Learning Climate (Dec 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 3) (Nov 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 2) (Sep 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 1) (May 2001)
- The Empowerment Of Choice (pt 2) (Apr 2001)
- The Empowerment Of Choice (pt 1) (Mar 2001)
- Power Of Positivity (pt 2) (Feb 2001)
- Power Of Positivity (Jan 2001)
- Home Assignments (Dec 2000)
- Collaboration is the Key (Nov 2000)
- Classroom Meetings (Aug 2000)
