Join the Reading Recovery Mailring listed in the English Center at the
Teacher Mailring Center
http://www.teachers.net/mailrings/
Mary K&1 - Welcome to Teachers.Net Chat about Reading Recovery, tonight we'll be discussing Making and Breaking and anything else you might want to bring up.
n/nc - what are the "rules" for dropping children this year?
Mary K&1 - we're told that you just can't do it, they have to put in their 20 weeks or be tested and qualify for a learning support program before you can stop servicing them
Denise - Yes, Good question -- it seems at this point going into 28 lessons I may have several all year!! They seem to be just know getting monitoring with early behaviors and using first sounds.
Mary K&1 - Denise - 28 lessons? Does that include Roaming?
n/nc - same here Mary K&1 how do you feel about that? Do you feel you are getting them up to the "average" in the calss?
Mary K&1 - I do my best, I have two that knew very few letters and could only write their name - one only got 7 on CAP, so there's a long way to go, but I keep seeing progress, and I have to just keep trying
Denise - Yes, roaming making books for them, adjusting books for them, using rolls of white tape - But, I am really optimistic though it doesn't sound like it. Just trying to learn more ! One came in with 5 letter sounds known and the other knew 25
Mary K&1 - Denise - 5 sounds! that's great! Mine all knew 0!
Mary K&1 - Where are you folks in Making & Breaking?
n/nc - children like this..... are we helping them or keeping them from getting the specialised help they need from our resource teachers.
Mary K&1 - I have one in analogies, two still just jumbling known words and one in between
Denise - Mary, they know the sounds but have a hard time remembering letter names! The alpha. book has been a real help but response time with this is so slow
Denise - Just started with jumbling known (last two weeks) And just into analogy but mainly modeling how this works
Mary K&1 - Denise, have you done a lot of ChBoard work with letters?
n/nc - with your most "preplexing" ones, how are they doing in classroom?
Denise - HMM--no, just white board - and top of practice in Wr.
Mary K&1 - My two lowest are proudly staring to participate and even giving correct responses - that's improvment
Sadie - Denise, do you play "Your pile/My Pile" with the letters?
Denise - Sadie, No I haven't but thanks for all advice!! I may start Just a few minutes for this?(during lesson)
Mary K&1 - Denise, following Clay's steps in the GB for learning letters really helps when it's hard to remember
Sadie - Denise, I do it daily with a few kids. They really love it. I also use known words to get those partial knowns well established.
Denise - I did a, at cat and went to what letter would need for cap?(she got it) This was chi. with 5 known letters
DKT - This is my second year with rr-- I am sometimes overwhelmed with all there is to know! Making & Breaking is still so complex for me
Sadie - i really enjoy this model, Mar, This is my first year doing it. I'm looking forward to serving my own kids next year knowing that I'll have given them a good start.
Mary K&1 - I think that my Kinder kids are the ones who really feel the benefits of my RR training, they really learn how reading works.
Kat - Mary, that makes a lot of sense - the impact your training has had on your ability to AVOID reading problems in your students in K
Sadie - Mary, at one of our sites a parent of a k child whose teacher did RR wrote a letter to the superintendent to say how much she felt his RR training benefitted her child
n/nc - what do you think is the "life expectancy" of rr teachers before they return to the classroom to use what they have learned?
Mary K&1 - n/nc, some seem to last forever, others 5 or 6 years
n/nc - Mary K&1 do you do the "shared teaching " model?
DKT - What is the shared teaching model?
Mary K&1 - n/nc. what do you mean by a shared teaching model?
n/nc - Mary K&1 shared teaching is when you do rr half day and regular classroom the other half
DKT - If shared teaching model means that you get to teach half a day-- that sounds great--
Sadie - n/nc.. I'm hoping to loop to avoid burn out. 2 years K/RR model.... one year straight 1st then back to K
n/nc - sadie.how do you like this model?
Sadie - n/nc.. I really like it. I've got my K's stretching and clapping words. We take our daily news to "cut-up story" via the pocket chart and my kids are eating it up. The parents are also very happy.
Sadie - DKT do you mean share a 1st grade class with another RR teacher?
Mary K&1 - n/nc, I teach kindergarten in the AM and RR in the PM, our kinders are still just half day programs
DKT - reading recovery teacher half day and I push into 2 classrooms each day (1st gtade) I work with rr teachers in my district that have been teaching rr for 8 years!!
DKT - Besides analogies, what can you do in M & B??
Sadie - good question DKT. I often feel that I am not doing enough in M/B or I get stuck in a rut.
Mary K&1 - Start with jumbling the know words, then changing the onset, after that move onto changing the rime and then analogies
DKT - I am always scrambling to come up with something in M & B--that is different and really will help each individual child
Denise - I've really enjoyed the making and breaking this year -- It seems that when I just remember what makes it easy -- and what it is the point of making and br. is to show how words work I feel better
n/nc - I have a child who "takes over : during M/b.He can make about 10 words, monitors on some of them, doesn't really know what the words are he made. Help???
Mary K&1 - n/nc are you staring with known words?
n/nc - mary k&1 he only knew one word, his name but during roamining and lessons he seemed to have learned some words. It's like he kindda knows what he knows but not really. He knows it today but not tommorrow and he knows it here but not there????
Mary K&1 - n/nc, does reading "When It's Hard To Remember" in the GB give you any ideas about what to do?
n/nc - mary k&1 I have read, reread and reread tried, tried and retried but He's just not getting it.
Mary K&1 - n/nc, what's the proceedure for referring a child for testing in your state? Maybe it's time to do that
n/nc - Mary k&1 he has been referred. lots of other problems too. It's just hard to accept the fact that some might need help other than I can provide
Mary K&1 - n/nc, I've found that if the child has a jumbled home life, they just can't seem to concentrate on learning, and they do need another type on intervention
judi - is your tl good to help with that type of childn/nc
n/nc - judi yes but we are both at a loss as to what to do. we have talked. She has observed a lesson and we both agree that he needs other help but i still have to keep him 20 weeks
Mary K&1 - We tried to have this chat Monday, but the server froze. There was a RR teacher from CA that said that they were told that they couldn't start M&B until the child knew 20 words, has anyone here ever heard of this?
Mary K&1 - DKT, have you ever heard of not starting M&B until the child knows 20 words?
DKT - If M & B includes workng with known words and then scrambling them up-- how could you wait for 20 words to be known before scrambling them???
DKT - We were taught to have our students work with words from day 1 of lesson 1--
Mary K&1 - DKT, that's what I thought, but I heard that some RR teachers have been told this, makes no sense to me either
Denise - Taught that as well the - Reason for making so many books for them in roam.
Mary K&1 - DKT, the GB says that you don't start M&B until they know 15 - 20 letters
judi - I attended a guided reading session today (SDE) so much rr techniques were presented What a better teaching ground we'd have if we could get all teachers thinking that way
Sadie - Judi, what do you mean SDE?
judi - Society for Developmental Education
judi - Any hints on getting a lesson in in 30 minutes?????
teach1st - I am a first grade teacher and am participating in READING RECOVERY in my building
teach1st - My RR children really have excelled
DKT - Keeping lessons to 30 minutes once a child is on Level 10 & higher is nearly impossible!! The higher the level-- the harder it gets!
DKT - I was trained last year in New York-- Long Island to be exact--
judi - i know it helps to have it all together but what do you give up when the time crunch is on?
DKT - My leader came from Austraila to work with us and my trainig is different than those of the other teachers in my district--- did any of you get graduate credits for your training?
judi - we did get 9 hrs credit told that was the only way we could be trained
judi - dkt i was also trained last year do you get better when you've had more experience?
Denise - I have to set the timer 3 times for 10 min. each time - that way at about 8 min. and counting I adjust-
judi - good idea denise i sometimes miss one component
DKT - I set my timer for 10 minutes 3 times but it still all gets away from me-- where do you cut? Familiar reading? Writing? New Book?
DKT - I sure hope I get better with time! I come in 45 minutes early each day to plan each child's lesson
Mary K&1 - DKT, it depends upon each student, cut short where they are the strongest, to make time for where they need the most work
Denise - DKT Judi - I hate to cut anything! I have let them get back to class and bring them back after a few hours and as schedule allows.
judi - i was told by the tl that i was not doing the student a favor by extending the time he suggested the burden rests with the chiold to stay on task and stop them and say tim's up
n/nc - we support other teachers by going into their classrooms to do guided reading so "make-up" time is not possible for us
DKT - Judi- my teacher leader told me the same thing! Last year during one of my behind the glass sessions I went 38 minutes-- Good thing my tl had a good sense of humor about it
DKT - Have any of you been to the Ohio RR conference?
DKT - I went last year--my district paid-- and they won't pay for this yea so I will be saving my $$$ so I can pay my own way last year
Mary K&1 - DKT, I used to go, but our district has not permitted us to go for about 3 years now
judi - i'm going to the ohio conferenc this year can't wait other teachers in our district have attended say its great looking forward to hearing Mary Fried
Mary K&1 - judi, Mary's great, you'll learn a lot from her
Denise - Mary, that's disappointing for you I bet! I so enjoy updating at conferences!
judi - dkt my tl was great but he was serious business
DKT - Ohio was the BEST professional conference I have ever been to! The TL is going this year and she is going -- I have asked her to pick me up some "tapes" of the sessions-- I have tapes from last year and I listen to them when things get rough (which is a lot!)
judi - k&I any tips about conferenc i have listened to every tape i could get my hand on over and over i learned so much that way
Mary K&1 - judi, the only tip that I can give is to get to as many sessions as possible, you may have to make some deals to get into the really great sessions, but do whatever it takes to get in, there's so much to learn and everyone is competing for the seats
DKT - I've only been to the conference once--there are a LOT of people there and the workshops are awesome--great thing about it is that if you find the workshop you're in isn't what you need-- you can quietly walk out and find one that is! I didn't go to any of the ticketed sessions so that I could do that!
DKT - One of my little guys isn't retainng some basic words so I made flash card (GB-when it's hard to remember) I hope that helps him! I put the cards on a ring and he dictated a sentence to go on the back --so he could see the word in context as well as in isolation
Denise - DKT, I'll try this as well -- it is presented in context and that seems to go along with how i was taught in training
Denise - Anybody going to Texas?
DKT - Texas??
DKT - My district sent us to BOSTON this year for the regional rr conference-- I wasn't anywhere near as impressed as I was with OHIO--
Denise - Yes, Texas Women's Univer. Reading Recov. Conf. Nov. 10-14 I went last year and enjoyed it
judi - are there several conferences? I thought the Ohio one was for the whole us
DKT - In OHIO look for any session tat Tammy Younts gives--she is WONDERFUL!!!
Karen/DY - Tammy younts was great at the Lowell Conference. Better than some of the "published " presenters.
DKT - Karen-- what did you think of the Lowell conference??
DKT - I saw Tammy Younts there too! I wonder if we were in the same session??
Denise - Karen, I'm excited, I'll be seeing her in Texas. Am I talking too much ? I'll let others respond for a while
judi - i got a set of books 20 word vocab to help with that it was a rip off 20$ i should have made them myself
Mary K&1 - judi, are you talking about the Short Books? I think that they're great! This was the first year I've used them and they have really helped get some known High F words going for the kids
DKT - Mary K & 1-- short books?? Who makes them?
judi - Mary yes Just not my thing I'm only using with one child
Mary K&1 - DKT, I can't remember who makes them, I think they were made by a couple of RR teachers, They aren't fancy, but they are good
DKT - Mary where could I get them?
Mary K&1 - DKT,
The Short Books
23800 15 Mile Rd.
Big Rapids, MI 49307
Telephone - 616-796-2167
Fax 616-796-2447
Karen/DY - I know I am late getting here. I teach RR at Dennis Yamouth Ma. Do you all agree that you shouldn't do make and break until letter formation is firm? Hope I haven't disturbed your train of thought.
Mary K&1 - Karen, not so much letter formation, I do that in other places, but 15 - 20 leters must be known before starting
DKT - What about doing M& B with words that contain known letters??
Denise - You know, I did that and it worked with ch. who has such little known letter knowl. yet strength in hearing sounds!
judi - our tl told us that he wants to intervene early if the child does not make progress in some area each week ask for colleague visit then calll him last year (training) we kept st
Karen/DY - Mary- I tend to agree with you- I am going to go ahead and keep working on the letter formation
Brenda - I teach RR in Lubbock, Texas. I'll be at the Conf. in Dallas too
Karen/DY - It was only my 2nd year. I had been excited about it but found you really had to be at the right sessions. T. Younts did Vygotsky and I got a lot out or it.
n/nc - anybody going to Greensboro or Ohio?
Mary K&1 - I'm going no where, our Board members think that we just go to conferences to play, so they won't allow us to go :(
DKT - It's only my 2nd year too! We must have been at the same session! I had a great sesson Fri afternoon too with someone who's last name was Moore--
DKT - Mary-- I am sorry to hear that! I am starting to save now for my trip next year to Ohio---
n/nc - anyone done National Board?
Mary K&1 - Any suggestions for the next meeting topic or focus?
n/nc - Suggestion for next time...Hard to teach child???
Mary K&1 - n/nc, that sounds good to me, that's what it'll be :) thanks
DKT - The hard to teach child sounds good to me!
tina - mary,your district sounds like mine
Denise - I'm going to get my guidebook ! And will be right back! I've never even seen a chat room before and this is great. Sorry I sound so juvenile - how long does this usually last?
DKT - goodnight! When will we all be meeting again???
Mary K&1 - DKT, Teachers.Net RR meetings are scheduled for the 4th Monday of each month, this past Monday the server went down, so it was rescheduled for this evening
Mary K&1 - Thanks for coming, and pass the word - let's get a crowd for the next meeting
Mary K&1 - Ok, I'm off, thanks and good night, see you next time
note, the following was our first attempt at this meeting. The server went down a short time into the meeting. A few people kept trying and did get back together later in the evening.Mary K&1 - Making and Breaking - where is everyone now - in what stages are your kids
Sandy - Our TL told us we should be teaching words at this point
SuzyQ/OK/3 - Can someone give me a quick overview or is there such a thing as a quick one?
zmom - I'm on lessons 4 - 8, where are u, Mary K&1?
judi - have a student who can not sequence the letters correctly after m&B Suggestions?
Sadie - Mary, I have one that doesn't know enough letters to do M/B yet. The worst part is that we are year round and we have just been off track for FOUR weeks. I'm sure that we've lost ground. I'll find out tomorrow!
Sadie - Suzy, do you mean on what is RR? Or how it works?
dann - some of mine are still learning letters!
Mary K&1 - zmom, what do you mean lessons 4 - 8 are you in week 3 and 4 of lessons?
Sadie - judi, what do you mean? in which component of the lesson?
SuzyQ/OK/3 - Yes, Sadie. Reading Recovery and how it works. Is it anything like Direct Instruction from SRA?
Mary K&1 - Sadie, how many lesson has this child had?
SuzyQ/OK/3 - How it works too.
Mary K&1 - I have two kids still learning letters and two into M&B
judi - r u able to complete programs in 60 lessons when the student begins with little letter knowledge?
Mary K&1 - judi, about 75% of the time
zmom - 2 children on #4 and #8, weeks 2 & 3. Started late Jury Duty.
Sadie - Suzy. no! RR is a highly individualized program based on 20 years of research developed by Marie Clay
Sandy - Judi, I had one last year with very low LID. He discontinued under 60
dann - I have trouble completing in 60 lessons when they are still learning letters in lesson 20's !
Janice - do any of you do small groups along with RR children
Doug/Ca - i am about to drop a kid, 10 absences, made home visits, letters home, principal involvement, etc.
Mary K&1 - dann, lesson 20! when did you start?
dann - wow Sandy how did you do that?
jan - I need to know what making and breaking I can do for a child who is still reading level 1's and 2's at lesson 20?
Sandy - we were told we have to submit in writing why we are dropping before 60 lessons
Sadie - Mary, I've been off for 4 weeks so I'm braindead as to the exact number of lessons. We're in week 5
Mary K&1 - Doug, will your TL allow you to drop?
judi - I'm on lesson 14-18 with my kids levels rang from 3-7 one student is continuing from last year and is approaching 60 but i think i can discontinue by abou 70 i trained last year learned so much!!!
Doug/Ca - Sandy- we have to through a committee and at school and talk to the teacher leader
dann - Mary K&1 - that's including roaming and starting with lesson # 11
Sadie - jan, how many letters does the child know?
Mary K&1 - judi, that's interesting - we are not permitted to do that here
Doug/Ca - I sent my warning letter on absence #5
Sandy - our TL just gave us this info last continuing contact. I think we have to send letter to Ohio St.
jan - What M&B can I do for a child who only has 5 known words at lesson 20? I am tired of using me/he am/at, etc.
Joi - Doug, is this child not in school?
Sadie - Jan, does the child know 15-20 lower case letters?
Mary K&1 - I had a student today make a big leap, she went from look to cook to cookie without the i
Doug/Ca - Jan- you don't do making and breaking with only 5 known words. i was told at least 20. how about teaching for overlearning some sight words and sorting letters?
Leslee - Between the holidays we've had and absences, I have yet to reach 10 lessons with 4 of my kids. Trying to get out of level 1's.
jan - sadie, he knows most of his letters, but just can't seem to "hold" words in his mind
dann - Jan - I say work on the meagre vocabulary first !
Mary K&1 - Doug, that's 20 letters before M&B?
judi - i had a little girl last year who i fell in love with last year who had 20 absences before i interrupted her program i picked her up later when some of the problems were rectified---lice
Sandy - Doug, I know how you feel. I have one that never does his sentence and is always late. Father a drinker, mother in jail
Joi - Sadie, at what grade level should a child know 15 to 20 lower case letters?
Doug/Ca - Jan- have you tried my pile your pile from the Guidebook?
Sadie - Hmmm. How about known words, Jan? Not much to work with?
Leslee - Our TL has never said anything about the number of known words that should be in place before M&B. This interests me.
Doug/Ca - 20 words, sorry
Mary K&1 - jan, have you reread "When It's Hard to Remember" in GB?
Sadie - Joi, that is the criteria that Clay sets to begin the making and Breaking portion of the lesson.
jan - sadie, would you use just one of his "almost" knowns ever to make and break?
Doug/CA - Sadie- ever give any tolds. i am really trying not to.
Sadie - Doug, Pat kelly came to our site last year and said, "A Told today is a Told tomorrow" I really try to avoid them but its hard sometimes!
Doug/CA - i am moving one of my kiddo's to letter boxes. Sometimes he needs assistance with sound boxes . He is starting level 8, any similar problems?
Sadie - Doug, tomorrow my kids start back on track after a 4 week break. I'm hoping we haven't lost too much ground. I WISH they were ready for letter boxes.
Sadie - Ooh Gina, you're brave. I got lucky this year. We have a big CC class. the training center is at my site so I volunteered to do OS behind the glass for the new class. Because of lack of slots that ended up being my BTG!
Gina/MO - Sadie--Are you in a year around school?
Doug/CA - gina- when you go BTG do you pick your lowest or highest?
Sadie - Yes. I love year round as a classroom teacher but its terrible for RR Especially on our schedule
Gina/MO - I think I'm going to take my highest and see what they all think!!!
Doug/CA - Anyone think doubling when kids are absent is not fair to the kid who shows up?
Sadie - what do you mean, Doug... for the kid who has to do 2 lessons?
Gina/MO - We got Clay's new book tonight at Continuing contact class!!
Doug/CA - Mary- http://www.stenhouse.com they give you a free chapter.
Note: Using this link to purchase Clay's new book will help Teachers.Net at no additional cost to you
Different Paths to Common Outcomes by Marie M. Clay
Doug/CA - Sadie , yes
SuperBG - What kind of results have you gotten in terms of reading grade level increases?
Mary - Thanks, Doug -- I wanted to order, but lost the info!
SuperBG - Phonics is sounds Wendell--students don't need phonics rules.
Gina/MO - I don't understand the doubling when kids are absent!?!?!?
Sadie - doug, that depends. I've had children who love to go 2x and others who it would be too much for. Like everything else... you've got to know your kids!
Doug/CA - I teach K also. Anyone else?
Sadie - Gina, use the empty slot left by the absent child by giving another student 2 lessons.
Sadie - I do, doug
Doug/CA - Gina- when a child is absent, we are asked to give 2 lessons to one of the other kids who showed up.
Doug/CA - How strong are your first grade teachers?
Gina/MO - I teach Title 1---Early Literacy groups the other part of my day!! Thanks for the doubling up explanation!!! Haven't heard of doing that?!?! I usually use that time to try and CATCH up, if that is possible!!!
Sadie - Doug, we have a mix. Some strong....some brand new and not sure how to put it all together
Sadie - Yes, gina. Its driving me crazy!
Doug/CA - In RR, we treat all three language cues as being equally impotant. it's the orchestration of reading strategies that is the heart of RR.
WENDELL - in my class tonight we learned that good readers use many strategies--phonics being their last choice. Poor readers only use one strategy usually phonics
Doug/CA - Wendell- perhaps poor readers are made from poor teaching?
Sadie - What about trade books at their independent level to help with flexibility. If they are always reading the same kind of text they may not transfer those skills to another.
Doug/CA - now that we are offering books: heinemann has a new phonics book out by Pinell. Lots of ideas
Sadie - Doug, do you mean to start M/B? Its 15-20 lower case letters (gb just says letters but our TL told us to add lower case
Doug/CA - Sadie- barbara Watson says we (USA) start MB too early.
Sadie - Doug, I've heard that. She also says we leave letter work too early
Sadie - Doug, the latest I've heard is that USA teachers do book intros etc. just to get the 90% the next day. We're more worried about our records than if we are actually helping the child to develop a self-extending system.
Doug/CA - Sadie- i am still learning to stop doing the work for the kids.
Sadie - Doug, we call it the RR hover!
Doug/CA - Anyone hate PM readers?
Gina/MO - No way, Doug!!
Sadie - Ah! The dreaded pm readers. But last year I (don't tell my TL) i avoided them for one child. When I finally pulled one for him his response after reading was...hey! i finally read a real story!
nette - at least there is a real story with them
Sadie - you can bet I'm a lot more careful to use a variety of texts now!
Doug/CA - Sadie- i am getting better with book choice. i use easy to hard within the level. Everyone else work this way or do you follow the strategy/word?
Sadie - Doug, I go easy to hard within the level but i pay attention to the word in the stories i choose.
Gina/MO - Doug--Why don't you like pm readers??
Doug/CA - No story and sound too much like a basal. Also with levels 6 plus, take forever to get through
