Join the Reading Recovery Mailring listed in the English Center at the
Teacher Mailring Center
http://www.teachers.net/mailrings/
Mary K&1 - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight we will be discussing "Keeping The Lesson To 30 Minutes When At The Higher Book Levels".
MEV - Hi! This sounds like a wonderful topic for this time of year.
la - I agree MEV. I sure have been struggling with it.
kono - Just finished c.c. session this afternoon and teachers BTG going over 30 minutes at WK 18
la - I have CC tomorrow pm.
kono - Seems part of the challenge to keep ls at 30 min. lies in the teacher's ability to quickly zero in on what is most important to teach and when to do it.
MEV - I have always had trouble sticking to 30 min. and still getting in all parts of the lesson.
kono - Where do you think you loose the most time?
MEV - I think it is especially difficult when I have a slow-paced child. I feel like I am pushing to go faster than he/she can go.
Doug - Mary- do you set your timer in 10 minute intervals?
la - I do, but I just end up shutting it off, and sometimes I forget to restart it.
Mary K&1 - Does anyone have any tips or tricks to offer about this topic?
Doug - fluency and phrasing should start with the early levels
Mary K&1 - I have the timer that does that by itself
Doug - I also like to use sing along types with familiar reading. Familiar reading should sound familiar and not like a new book
Mary K&1 - The slow moving children and the fidgety ones are so difficult to keep moving in the right direction
la - The fluency and phrasing has been my problem this year. I have not worked hard enough on it, and now I am paying for it.
MEV - I agree with that, Mary.
Doug - I like to play "Lets beat the clock"....ready set go
MEV - Where did you get that kind of timer?
Mary K&1 - What about the long books? What is permitted when reading them? Both for first reading and for the rr?
MEV - I think you can stop at 100 words or so.
la - I thought it was 150 words.
Mary K&1 - I got the timer from the RR site - http://www.readingrecovery.org/
MEV - Thanks. It sounds like it would be a great help.
la - I get so frustrated when I go over time! Many mornings it is a struggle to get all four children in.
Doug - I think keeping to 30 minutes has many reasons. When I go over, you can see it by looking at the non verbal behaviors from my kids, slouching, yawning etc.
Mary K&1 - Has anyone ever read the first half of longer books to the child and then have them read the last? I keep thinking that that would make a lot of sense - the child could then be in better control of the meaning of the book, but I'm sure that the RR Police would smack me if I did it.
Doug - Mary- i won't tell
MEV - Yes, you probably would be taking away the chance to work out the pattern--they might just follow the pattern as you established it. Although at higher levels, there isn't such a predictable pattern as in lower levels.
MNZ - Sometimes you need to see if the child is able to work his/her way into the story...that's important too
MEV - I agree. And sometimes that takes longer.
Lisa - Sometimes I have the child read the first half of a new book one day and the second half the next day.
MNZ - Yes, but fluency often speeds up as the M & S is gained through phrasing etc.
MEV - I've done that, too.
Doug - Lisa- i do that with writing...sometimes Gilbert has a very long story and we continue the idea the next day
kono - So what do you do with slow moving or fidgety child?
MEV - I guess that would work, as long as you stopped at the end of a sentence.
Mary P - On the rereads, I have students read half of the book and then I finish it. On the new book, I also may not be able to have the child finish it and have to finish it for him.
kono - What do you do to get the slow mover moving?
MEV - Good question. I'm eager to hear ideas.
la - I am not sure... I have tried to go way back in the familiar reread in order to help one student gain fluency and confidence.
kono - Do RR procedures allow for teacher to read part of new book to child at upper levels?
Mary P - After or before a lesson, I have also had kids tape themselves and listen to see if they sound fluent and interesting.
Mary K&1 - My kids are still rather slow writers, they don't get any writing practice in their regular classrooms, our first grade teachers don't start writing until second semester, I've tried to talk them into starting sooner, but they just don't get it, so the only writing the kids do is with me, and they are still so slow
Doug - Mary- they should start the first day of Kindergarten
MEV - That makes it really hard--they could be so much further along with reinforcement from the classroom.
Lisa - On the familiar reading, I think it helps to make sure the book are really familiar to the child that he/she would not have to do a lot of work on. Books that move pretty quickly and you briefly do one or two teaching points. Also, on the new book, I always want to teach everything. I need to learn to pick my teaching points carefully, and make sure the book is the right level for the child...
la - I also have "cookie club" once a week. All my RR students meet over recess. They must read a book to their friends. This allows my good, fluent readers to model for the slower readers.
MNZ - Those are really good points, Lisa
Mary K&1 - Doug, I know, but I'm the only K or first grade teacher who has the kids writing every day, this is really causing me problems - dealing with the kids who just haven't had any writing experiences before coming to me
Melissa - One of my biggest challenges is just keeping to one or two teaching points and moving on. If I don't, the time gets away from me.
Mary K&1 - the writing portion of my lessons eats up a lot of time
MNZ - Yes, choosing the most powerful thing for the child is tricky...and keeping to strategies is so important.
MEV - What about the child who wants to "discuss" everything? I've tried telling him/her that we can talk AFTER he/she finishes, but sometimes they forget.
Mary P - Have you tried sticking to 10 min. for the writing part of the lesson and trying to wrap it up even if they haven't written everything they wanted to?
Lisa - What about the child who reads his running record book really slowly?
la - I have one like that MEV. Frustrating.
Doug - One of the biggest problems I am having is having a firm grasp on what the child controls well and to choose books that follow accordingly
MNZ - Think about your book selection..to hard, not the right book for the child etc.?
MEV - Sometimes you realize you've chosen poorly too late--just have to learn and try again the next day.
la - Some of my RR books are going too slow. That is why I am REALLY working on phrasing and fluency!
kinderkate - I agree that the selection of the 'right'book is essential - but with some I start running out of books. I especially find this a problem with ELL's.
Melissa - la, I hear you! I also need to work on phrasing and fluency.
la - ELL'S???
MNZ - Try tracking similar M&S patterns over levels.
kinderkate - English Language Learners.
Gigi/MO - I also have a difficult time with book selection!
MEV - Book selection gets easier the longer you are in RR. After many years of adding to my collection of books, I can finally have books selected for each student and that student alone.
tyylee - What level of book do you select when the % and sc rate are at the easy level but the reading isn't fluent?
la - Does anyone have any good resource books for helping you choose words for M&B? I have so much trouble thinking of good examples!
MEV - Maybe work more on phrasing and fluency with the familiar reading portion of the lesson.
Doug - tylee- why wasn't it fluent?
jenny - what about the student who studies the picture and analyses everything in the book
tyylee - Doug, too much labored visual work being done, child needs to use more meaning.
MNZ - My TL suggested spending a whole lesson on phrasing and fluency. Try taping the child so that he can heahim/herself...and insist on getting it to "Sound right".
Ann_NJ - Is the reading just slow or is there no phrasing ?
Doug - tyylee- I do the same thing and when it happens I think it is for the same reason
la - I think that I will try that with my students MNZ.
kono - I'm as concerned about the level number, as I am about the kind of books that lend themselves to phrased reading.
jenny - i find taking turns reading the book gives them a great model for what good reading sounds like and they will try to sound like you do
tyylee - Ann, slow with only a little phrasing because he has to stop and think about the words.
jenny - for the fam rereading books
MEV - Jenny-are you talking about familiar reading or new book?
jenny - not the new book
tyylee - Doug, do you back down a level or stay at that level until it is fairly fluent?
MEV - That makes sense.
Lisa - Sometimes you need to model what "good reading" sounds like for the student, to help with fluency/phrasing.
kinderkate - Sometimes - during fluent reading - we will echo read. I read a sentence then the student repeats. Helps with language structure of ELL"s as well as models fluent reading.
jenny - mev i don't do it enough it is powerful
la - I have started sending home two or three books for them to read at night as well. I think that this has made some difference.
Doug - tyylee- I have backed 2 times with one child this year. One child today was sounding out "so" I think he was just enjoying seeing my expression
June - kinderkate:Are you in session now?
MNZ - Yes, and then say 'You can read it like that..off you go!' You demonstrate, then the child practises.
Doug - tyylee- he is in level 11...LOL
MEV - Doug--they do do that, don't they?
kinderkate - Also sometimes in familiar reading I'll read one page, student reads the next.
Ann_NJ - tylee, do you still work on vocab at all with this student - before the lesson or during making & breaking or during the writing portion. Maybe he/ she needs to know what they know and be able to call it up quickly - the processing may be slow.
la - I am going to have to try more of the shared reading... Did not think that I could do that.
Doug - I have given a first grade teacher some readers theater scripts for her whole class. It has helped with fluency but the other teacher is not much of a risk taker
tyylee - When reading the new book and you run out of time before the book is finished, but they have read more than 100 words, do you read the rest of the book to them or just wait until the next day?
kinderkate - lol doug - like the new teacher who just didn't know why her students weren't doing their homework. And after all she was making them stay in at recess with her to do it. Duh - k/l students would rather stay in with teacher any day.
MNZ - ent rdg is powerful...it might be only one page, or even a phrase, but I think that it is important to draw attn to the best things that the child did...they are more likely to try it that way againYes, and then say 'You can reead it like that..off you go!' You demonstrate, then the child practises.
Ann_NJ - tylee , I do both
kinderkate - I agree with the stopping with the 100 words.
Doug - Just a reminder about what Clay says...kids attend to what you attend to
jenny - our tl says you should have closure on the book
Mary K&1 - tyylee, I read the rest to them, or give a quick overview of the ending
la - Any suggestions for a child who does not look at visual info well. She likes to go on meaning and structure, and will guess from the first letter. Sometimes they are just wild guesses. She gets so mad, frustrated when I prompt her to do the work!
MEV - We forget just like the kids do, Doug.
kinderkate - Anyone out there having trouble with length of lessons for English Language Learners. Mine run over because I have to explain so much of the vocabulary or language structure.
Doug - la- is the sc 1:0 consistantly?
MEV - I don't have any ELL students, but I can see how that would be a problem.
la - No... She can, and does monitor, but when it comes time to work at figuring out what it might say, she gets frustrated.
la - At times she self corrects, and then I praise her like mad!!!!
Doug - la- what does she do when you say "try it"
renee - How do you move the writing portion along without shifting responsibility from the child?
MNZ - What sorts of Meaning scaffolds are you using?
tyylee - la, cover the page with your hand and then ask what you would expect to hear at the end of ______ and then have them check it by running their finger slowly under the word. When it doesn't match have them predict another word and check the same way.
Doug - tyylee- good ones
Doug - renee- that is the goal of rr to have kids become independent readers and writers
la - It depends on her mood. Sometimes she will try SOMETHING, other times she will sulk. When she gets it (with prompting) she is so proud... but it is such a struggle.
MNZ - Try a Meaning prompt, cover the word and say what would you expect to see..at thebeg...at the end...were you right?
MNZ - Yes, I am
MEV - renee--I try to link anything I can to what the child knows. He stills does the work, but I try to show him how to use what he already knows. Really helps.
kinderkate - I had a little girl that was just not used to 'working'. She was treated like the baby in the family and just didn't have the concept. We had a serious talk and she finally realized that she we work in my room.
la - I really need her to take a closer look at the words and not just guess.
Doug - i love the story my TL says to kids...its my job to do______and your job to _________
tyylee - Sometimes children need to hear you reread the first part of the sentence to get the meaning and so they can make a meaningful prediction of the unknown word. They sometimes don't listen to themselves and when you model it they get the idea better.
la - This little girl has been a behavior problem in the class, and with me. I feel so drained at the end of a lesson with her.
kinderkate - I'm making a note of that one, Doug.
MEV - tyylee--but sometimes they can get too dependent on hearing you. At some point they need to listen to themselves and not you.
la - Tyylee... ou hit it right on the head. If I say the sentence, she will often get it. But she is at level eight, and she is becoming too dependent on me.
la - Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
tyylee - Mev, definitely only do it for them a few times and then have them reread it themselves and "get your mouth ready"
Doug - la- as kids go up in levels so do your prompts
MNZ - So just say go back and think about what would sound right and look right
la - I love that prompt
Ann_NJ - la, I had a student like that last year. I was so happy when so disc. This year she still has beh. and attitude problems. I console her second grade t. - a real tough cookie. - but she can read and write.
kinderkate - Do you give many tolds during RR, la?
MEV - Right, tyylee. Once they know that you expect them to listen to themselves, they do take on that responsibility.
la - With her, Yes!
la - I don't have enough time in my morning to wait for her to try it.
Mary K&1 - And tell them to do that the next time they are stuck, not to wait for you to prompt
kinderkate - I had the same type of student, la. I finally told him that during RR I was not going to say a word. That he needed to try and after the RR we would discuss all the good stuff he did and the hard parts. Then I made sure that for the next several RR's he COULD do all, with work. THe first couple of RR were very difficult, but he finally got the picture.
la - I will try to get her to listen to herself more. And maybe the added incentive of a tape recording of herself would get her to work on the fluency.
tyylee - Occasionally I get frustrated with a child who just sits there and tell him to 'try something' and usually they do
MEV - I think I'm back. Ann--if I find myself giving too many tolds, I know I've picked an inappropriate book.
la - Thanks for the idea Kinderkate.
Doug - Mev- I have a hard time keeping myself from Tolds
Sadie - kinderkate, sometimew you have to sacrifice the time in a rr or 2 to get the payoff later on. I had a kid who would wait for me to give a Told. One day I just sat there...... freaked him out but he began trying SOMETHING.
MEV - Doug--that's because waiting takes TOO MUCH TIME, and we only have 30 MIN!
la - All these things to learn. This is only my second year teaching the program, and I feel lost still at times.
tyylee - When time is an issue and you don't have time to do everything in the lesson what component do you usually leave out?
Sadie - How do you guys keep your lessons to 30 minutes at higher lessons. I've got my timing fairly down... but I have a student at level 12 (moving to 13 and almost ready to discontinue) where all of her books have a word count of 200 words! Yikes! We went over today!
la - I used to leave out writing, but I found out how big a mistake that was!!!!!!!
kinderkate - Let's face it - many of our students have behavior problems as well as reading deficiencies - and most of the time it is hard to know which came first. I also find that many of my students are the ones that are absent or late, or forget their work for me as well as classroom homework. Sometimes I wonder if we are picking up the slack for the parents.
MEV - Tyylee--for me, it's usually make and break that I skip.
Sadie - tyylee, before I will leave anything out I will try to determine where I am losing time so that I can improve that component. I used to sacrifice writing... until I understood how important it is! (I would allow a short little story)
Mary K&1 - Sadie, that's the big question for tonight - the never ending problem
tyylee - I tend to leave out the cut up sentence, just put it in an envelope and send it home.
Sadie - la...lol! I just read your post about writing after I posted mine!
MNZ - At higher levels you can leave out the CUS..see p17 in the GB
Mary K&1 - I lose time diring writing and haven't been able to solve it :-(
MEV - Tyylee-- you're right. I forgot. I do that, too.
tyylee - At the higher levels I read only one book in familiar reading since they are longer.
Mary K&1 - MNZ, thanks, I'll check that out
MEV - Mary K&1. You've got to do something about that classroom!
Sadie - Mary, I am lucky that my TL is at my site. She is great at coming to observe and give me some feedback of what I am doing. Tylee... do you have a colleague who can observe you and give you some feedback?
MNZ - For next time...how about writing tips :-) ??
la - As I said earlier, I have trouble picking words for M&B. I would love to hear what everyone else does, where you get your good examples...
Mary K&1 - MNZ, that sounds like a good topic, great for me!
Sadie - la, at our yearly conference last year I got a hand-out that listed many of the principles of text that we are trying to teach in m/b. I keep it posted at my work station and it helps me to be sure I am not only doing onset and rime!
Sadie - tylee... how often does your TL come out for visits?
tyylee - Only once a year now that I am not in my training year.
la - Sadie, that is my problem exactly.
MNZ - I look for something interesting in the Reading that I can build on or ahead to the new book
Sadie - That's it tyylee? Bummer! Will he/she come out with an SOS call? How about at CC? Are you going BTG soon?
Ann_NJ - At the higher levels 13 / 14 I really watch how much time I spend on familiar reading - that seems to be where I am loosing time
Sadie - tylee, what about colleage visits from other schools? I just had teachers from other schools in my district come for a colleague. It was very beneficial.
Ann_NJ - MNZ is it OK to M& B something that may be a problem in the new book - or use it for a M& B lesson ?
Sadie - Ann, be sure that in m/b you are starting with a known.
MNZ - Well, you would have to choose a known word to start from, and be thinking of the strategies for linking sound sequence with letter sequence...get close to the word, so that you can refer to the process you just did together when you get to the new book
Sadie - Thanks. night all!
tyylee - See everyone next time. Goodnight. Thanks for the good suggestions everyone.
Mary K&1 - Thank you all for coming tonight, I apologize for not being able to keep up tonight, you've all been so helpful
Ann_NJ - Thanks all
Ann_NJ - MNZ I really enjoy all of your posts. Thanks for sharing all of your expertise here and on the list serv
