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Mary K&1 - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight we will be discussing writing.
Mary K&1 - How many of you are pleased with how your kids' writing is and has been progressing?
kinderkateSD - To get the "story" we are to carry on a conversation. Do any of you have a word or structure you are leading the student toward - or is that against the rules?
nette - i think the writing is ok
tyylee - One of my students carefully words his sentences to only use words he knows he can spell and is very stubborn about changing them.
kinderkateSD - While I was in the classroom I had a lot of training in writing workshop. I think that has helped, as well as having the classroom teachers doing that. My students are generally much higher in writing when they enter.
tyylee - We were told that we could 'lead' the child somewhat but not force them to follow that lead.
cc - s few of my students carefully word sentences, too.
Mary K&1 - I try to ask a question to which I how the child's answer includes a particular word - I guess that's leading, but necessary at times
Doug - Mary- that is very important at early levels
Andrea - I've really found that having them talk about their Running Record book has opened up more and offers more opportunity for using new words.
tyylee - When we are reading the longer books it is hard to have time to do more than one sentence. How do you handle that problem?
cc - That's a good idea, Andrea!
kinderkateSD - I find my ELL's (English Language Learners) tend to want to write only words that they know. They are generally not risk takers at first.
cc - My teacher leader says that you can complete the story the next day!
la - Lately, I time my writing portion,and cut it off. We may continue the writing subject the next day... I don;t like to do this, but I run overtime otherwise.
kinderkateSD - I heard at a workshop recently that another source is a familiar book read that day. They will be more used to the structure.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, at the end of the program, it is hard to fit a lot in, you don't have to do the CUS, so that may save some time
nette - I am confused..you can continue the writing the next day? that's new to me
Andrea - I do not do well on time,so I know that we will never have time for more than one sentence,but one of the writing strategies at higher levels is to complete more sentences on the following days.
Doug - Toward discontinuing times, i like to have my kids use their journals from the classroom as the writing book. I got the idea from a veteran RR person....helps the transition
kinderkateSD - I know they say to go to more than one sentence, but I don't understand the purpose of that.
cc - I think it is important to support the ELL's so that they can feel more confident. I saw a BTG with an ELL student and it was INCREDIBLE to see his progress!
kinderkateSD - I really feel the writing of longer stories is for the classroom.
la - Ohh!!! I like that idea Doug! Thanks/
kinderkateSD - Writing that one down, Doug.
Mary K&1 - kinderkate, the purpose is to get them writing fluently, they should be able to write much more and more quickly toward the end of their program, but mine still give me a run to come up with a topic
kinderkateSD - Do you do the writing the same way then Doug. Or do you encourage the student to write independently?
cc - My first students are about to discontinue--what should their stories look like??
tyylee - Do you have any other ideas for transition to the classroom. One of our teachers complains that there is not enough carryover in to her classroom
nette - and how do you decide which one should be on a sentence strip?
kinderkateSD - Are you monitoring the student in the classroom, tyylee?
Mary K&1 - By the end of the program the GB says that their writing should be a story of 2 or 3 sentences
Doug - cc- they should be out of sound boxes and at least into letter boxes...beginning and ending consonant frames should be under control. Use of space and punctuation should be free from prompting
cc - I would use the sentence with the most "work" for them to process through!
kinderkateSD - Sometimes it is a behavior issue, tyylee. The student will work for you because he knows you expect it.
cc - Thanks, Doug! That sounds good!
Doug - cc- good answer
Mary K&1 - nette, close to the end of the program, you don't have to be doing the strip, there's not much for the child to learn from doing so
nette - cc: smart answer, thank you
nette - true Mary
kinderkateSD - They probably should be out of boxes altogether. There will be no one to draw boxes in the classroom.
nette - is it ok we discuss making and breaking?
Doug - nette- go ahead
Andrea - I think if you're not careful, the CUS can slow down fluency, so at the end of the program, it doesn't serve a specific purpose.
nette - ok. do you guys put all the letters across and ask the kids to bring down the letters they need to form the words they need to make?
nette - I tell you,,,every year I have another take on making and breaking
Monique - When you are about to discontinue a student, How many words do you expect them to write in 10 minutes?
la - I have a student who will not look past the first letter of words... she guesses lots!!! I am really using the CUS to try and get her looking!
nette - the more I hear. the more I get confused.
kinderkateSD - I have a problem with the conversation before the writing. I'll suggest we write about something we have been talking about and the child says No - and goes on to something else.
tyylee - Kinder, same here
Doug - monique- i like 40 but I also like to see them use word families independently...cat, fat, rat etc.
Mary K&1 - Monique, 50 or more is about normal
Monique - Do you also look for "quality" of words?
Doug - Monique- are you talking about WT on the OS?
kinderkateSD - When doing that part of the OS - do you read the list of known words, or do the kids have to think of them?
tyylee - Doug, when you say use word families independently do you prompt them to write some more words that sound like that or expect them to do it without your suggestion?
Mary K&1 - This year my students' handwriting skills were really the worst yet, that has slowed down the process a lot, we had to do a lot of letter work, a couple of them still write so slowly
Monique - Doug, I am talking about Words I Know. When they have to write as many words as they can in 10 minutes.
Doug - tyylee- exactly...( I never say If you know rat you can make sat by changing the first letter. I just suggest it with my choices...rat, fat cat.......
la - Mary - When you have slow writers, how do you stay on time???? My eternal question!!!
Monique - Jorddyn, you can do a search of Yopp, she has published articles in the Reading Teacher. Do you have access to that?
Doug - Mary- speaking of handwriting, i need to compliment your idea on using a race car to show the formation of the letter...its a good one
Mary K&1 - We were told to not read a list of words, we are not giving a spelling test, we can prompt for ideas if the child runs out of ideas, like "write all the animals that you can think of", but don't list words for them
cc - I'm glad veterans have the time question, too! I have a little one that is taking apart so many words that we can barely finish any part on time!
kinderkateSD - And you get 40 to 50 words that way, Mary???
la - Race car formation???
Monique - Mary--I agree. You should prompt subjects like animal words.
Mary K&1 - Doug the race care is something I use early in lessons
Doug - mary- isn't the WT first to observe what they can do alone and then prompted?
kinderkateSD - cc - remember you don't have to work out every word.
Mary K&1 - kinderkate, yes - we do writing sprees about once a month, so the kids understand what is expected
tyylee - when doing the word test do you use words off their list of known words or just those on the test form?
cc - I know!! She is so into her discovery--she is amazed!
kinderkateSD - Oh - I will have to start doing that.
la - cc- usually, we are trying to do (correct) too much in a lesson. I know that I am guilty of that.
cc - You could be right!
Mary K&1 - Doug, the Writing Vacab test is to see what they can do on their own, but sometimes they get stuck for ideas and it's OK to prompt their thinking
Doug - mary- I just was chatting about it because some 1st grade teacherws were getting amazingly hugh WT's on the OS in the classroom and they were not using the OS directions.....I think its called interrater reliability
kinderkateSD - What were they doing, Doug?
Doug - if you know cat then make fffffat
Mary K&1 - la, the race car thing is something I do very early in lessons to help the child learn letter formation - I take the side of a piece of chalk and make a letter very large on the ChB then have the child "drive" the matchbook type car around the letter telling which way he is going and when he is turning, etc
Doug - mary- i just love that idea
la - Mary- Thanks for the idea.
kinderkateSD - I walked into a room of one of my students the other day and the teacher had written his sentence with highlighter to be traced. She was so surprised when I told here what he could do. He had really fooled her.
Doug - I hereby rule that Fridays are for spending in the classroom and for doing paperwork
cc - I have tried to set the behavior that I expect from day one! However I still have one that seemingly refuses to share the pen. She is so impulsive! Any advice?
kinderkateSD - Another idea in my notebook, Mary.
Mary K&1 - Doug, does that do you any good? Aren't you teaching your kinders when the firsts are having their reading class?
Monique - CC-I make sure I have two markers for every color that they can write with. This way we don't literally need to share the same marker.
kinderkateSD - LOL cc - I have one that holds so tightly to the pen I can hardly get it out of her hand.
cc - Doug--what a great idea!!
Doug - cc- be specific about what you want and use an incentive system to shape the desired behaviors
tyylee - I sometimes have to gently hold the child's pen hand until they say the word slowly for me and tell me what they hear.
kinderkateSD - Don't we have to use black in in the writing book?
Doug - mary- sorry i was trying to be funny
cc - I meant that she writes words incorrrectly before I can jump in and guide her in the process! Good ideas, thanks!
Mary K&1 - How much work do your kids do on the practice page toward the end of their program?
MNZ - Greetings from New Zealand!
Mary K&1 - There seems to be not much to work on, do you find this?
kinderkateSD - cc - that's what magic tape is for lol.
cc - LOL--using losts of tape!!!
tyylee - I sometimes have the child write word families etc from word in their story
Monique - I was told that we could use any color except yellow. It's hard for the child to see.
MNZ - There is less of new wod work on the Practice page later on...but perhaps more analogies etc
kinderkateSD - It does seem to get to be used less, Mary. Sometimes we use it to try long words, etc.
Doug - tyylee- me too...especially as levels get up there
Mary K&1 - Oh, yes, analogies, I must not forget them, thanks!
tyylee - sometimes these words from the word family or similiar work using sound patterns are used as the fluency word when they already knew the words in the sentence
Doug - mnz- 9 kids?
MNZ - I'm down to 8 this year, but may pick up another later on...funding
Mary K&1 - MNZ, do you have success with getting your kids to write 2 or 3 sentences toward the end of their program?
kinderkateSD - You have no other duties, MNZ?
tyylee - Are your children who are near the end of their program able to do most letter boxes for the medial sounds such as ea and ar ?
Mary K&1 - MNZ are you funded per child?
la - MNZ how do you manage it! I am going nuts with just four.
MNZ - No, I am employed by two schools and travel during the day. I do playground duty and do staff/parent workshops as they are needed.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, toward the end of the program, I don't have my kids in any boxes, they just write. If they aren't sure of a word, they write it first on the practice page, but not in letter boxes, we are done with them
MNZ - Yes, usually. It's somewhat more successful in one school than the other...Diff philosophy and programmes, and staff support
kinderkateSD - My students usually know ar and ay by the end - also th,ch,sh. And then other chunks that we have come across. It's not up to us to teach all spelling patterns, or is it? (Just my 2d year, remember.)
Doug - mnz- are the PM readers your main choice of book?
tyylee - We were told that we should still use sound boxes occasionally even near the end of the program
kinderkateSD - mnz - Do you go by the GB for discontinuing or do you do a test like we do in the states?
MNZ - PM Readers are our benchmark series. RR started with the Ready to Reads, but PMs are prefered now.
kinderkateSD - We were told that although a valuable tool, boxes are a crutch and to leave as soon as possible.
tyylee - Interesting that different tl's give different instructions!
cc - I know the topic is writing--BUT-- I have children who do really well with the PM Readers--but have a hard time with much simpler text. Do you think that it is because there is so much meaning to the stories?
MNZ - Sound boxes for words that the child is unlikely to get to without breaking the task down to that level, but most of the work on the run.
Doug - tyylee- that is what makes rr a process...i like it that way
MNZ - Depends on how you define simpler text.
tyylee - Doug, I wish someone would rewrite the guide book with more explicit instructions
Doug - mnz- perhaps she meant a sentence using dialect or grammar that is not in the oral vocabulary of the reader
Mary K&1 - MNZ, what time is it for you? Are you on holiday?
tyylee - I have found that if we only use the PM readers the children have more difficulty when they encounter the books on the OS
kinderkateSD - MNZ - and others - do you all use the Scott Foresman books to discontinue?
MNZ - The Guide Book is just that...a guide. Because each child is different, you could not have a prescriton for teaching. As Doug said, it's a processing system that we are stimulating in the child.
kinderkateSD - Right you are, MNZ, and thanks for reminding us of that. (Are you sure you aren't MC in disguise?)
tyylee - How do the Scott Foresman books compare to the other set of books in difficulty? Do you think they are easier, harder, or about the same
Mary K&1 - kinderkate, we have to use them here in the States, that's because of the continueing research the OSU is running, we all have to do the same thing and use the same materials
MNZ - We do not use the Scott Foresman books at all. We use Running Records and the OS. The SF books are part of the US research project.
kinderkateSD - HARDER, by far. We figure a child has to be on a level 14 in lessons to test out on a level 12 Scott Foresman.
kinderkateSD - And that is what MC says in the GB, MNZ. I really feel the US way of doing it is defeating the purpose in some aspects.
MNZ - Mary, it is 3.48pm Tuesday here. It's the end of our summer break...usually I would still be in school at this time.
kinderkateSD - What level of lessons must a child be on to discontinue in NZ, MNZ?
Doug - kinderkate- there is less picture support and print is laid out rather closely...I want them revised
Mary K&1 - We've started to ask the classroom teachers to give us the names of 3 of their middle kids, we then test them to see what level they test out at and that is the level that we use to test our RR kids
tyylee - Maybe I am confused, the set of books that origionaly came with the OS, are they the SF books? We now have an alternate set available that we are suppose to use for Literacy Group OS Testing
Tonya - Thank-you....Doug
MNZ - It depends on the school...where the other students are in the middle of Year @ is our guideline. For me it is usually round levels 17- 21
kinderkateSD - And at the end of the year, MNZ?
MNZ - Sorry, Year 2
Doug - yikes
Mary K&1 - tyylee, we have both sets, we use the alternate set if we determined that they child needs more time, but was tested at a particular level, so the next time he is tested he won't be reading the same book
Kim - What is year 2 compared to US?
tyylee - Mary, we were told last year that the children had to be levels 12-14 by mid year but this year they are saying 10-12. What do they say where you are?
kinderkateSD - OK - The SF books you are talking about for testing are the ones that have paper covers, right?
Mary K&1 - Holy Cow!! That's the end of the year for us!!!
kinderkateSD - Where are you tyylee?
MNZ - That's for the schools that I work in...some would disc at Levels 15-16. But not below that. Level 15/16 is 6 years Reading Age , so you don't disc below the child's Chronological age.
Lyninaus - Year 2 in US is very similar to Nz and Aus>
Doug - kinderkate - and don't forget the "wonderful" bookk intros that come with them
kinderkateSD - But, Lyninaus, MNZ is not using tests. The students are at that level for lessons, right?
Mary K&1 - Like I said, we are getting the middle level by testing average kids from the classroom, it varies from school to school. For me this year it's 10
MNZ - Yr1 would be Kinder
tyylee - We have the two sets you are referring to but we also have another set of test books that they want us to use for things like summer school and Lit Groups.
Lyninaus - Can't help in that area only know my daughter transferred across from gr2 Aus to Gr 2 US.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, OH, I see
kinderkateSD - And, MNZ, is it in NZ that the year starts on the child's birthday?
Mary K&1 - Well, our time is about shot, what do we want to talk about next time?
MNZ - We are diff too in that the students start school on their 5th b/day...they come in throughout the year.
tyylee - Kinder, Indiana here
kinderkateSD - So that means,MNZ, that all of the students you work with are at LEAST 6 years old.
Kim - So....at the end of age 6...beginning of age 7 is there a level you like them to be at?
cc - Make and Break, for next time?? See you in Ohio!!
tyylee - cc, I'll be there
Mary K&1 - Does Making and Breaking sound good to everyone?
MNZ - Yes...all students in my schools are OS tested on the 6th b/day, and we select from the lowest at the time of spaces being available. I retest on the OS at RR entry.
Doug - kinderkate- i want to
tyylee - What about concentrating on Make and Break near the end of lessons.
tyylee - cc, yes, I went last year. Learned sooo much. Had a wonderful conf and can't wait to go this year.
Doug - tylee- when you go can you get me the info on getting audio tapes from some of the speakers?
kinderkateSD - Next time all going to CA conference should set a meeting place and time. It would be fun !!
Mary K&1 - I have to go now, feel free to keep chatting, thanks for coming tonight
kinderkateSD - I like that idea tyylee.
tyylee - Doug, sure, they have a table set up in the main lobby, I'll pick up the info. for you. We bought the set two years ago and were disappointed with the quality of the tapes, hopefully they are better now.
MNZ - These tapes sound interesting, but you can't order them on the Net.
