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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight's topic is "Teaching To The Strategy Level."
Mary/PA - Are you into your second round?
ida - yes starting the second round
Mary/PA - At what levels did your kids come into the program this time around?
leftcoast - hi, everyone, especially Mary. My pal and I are so happy to have discovered you
ida - my kids are at levels 3-4
leftcoast - My newest little one came in at level two, moved through 3 during roaming, and started his first lesson at 4
Mary/PA - ida, are you still roaming?
Mary/PA - leftcoast, making progress, that's good
Mary/PA - What strategies do you teach for early in the program?
Mary/PA - Do your 2nd rounders have the early strategies under control?
ida - yes I am in roaming with 2. I'm also new to this chatroom stuff and having a bit of trouble following
leftcoast - Unfortunately, no. as a first year, it is our policy that we have to keep them until they are successfully discontinued or all year.
Mary/PA - Doug are you back in session yet?
Doug - Strategies, I believe keep things easy and fast. When i focus on item knowledge, things get hard and quite often, goes over 30 minutes
Doug - I have one more (well deserved) week
Doug - I am going to hear Marie Clay speak on March 10.
Mary/PA - I've been roaming fro three weeks now - we've had a lot of absences - some kind of nasty virus running through the kids
leftcoast - doug, I'm envious
Mary/PA - Where is she going to be?
SS - Hey Doug, I'll be there to! Whoo Hoo! We might be the only men there!
Doug - She is speaking at the convention center in Sacramento, California
ida - she will be in Toronto in April
SS - I saw her last year at Visalia. I took my RR certificate and got her to autograph. I wonder if Pinell will do th e same...
Mary/PA - Do most of your second round kids come in with the early strategies under control? - this question is for everyone
leftcoast - Mary, one of my older ones has a problem with directionality. She's left handed. She knows the directionality of text, but if she is trying to use visual clues for a word, she goes r-l
Doug - Mary, looking at strategies....when i record a child self-correct, I usually see the child using v when I record it on the running record.
Doug - mary- my two kids just getting out of raoming have early strategies under control
SS - I got a couple of kids that came in with a LOT. High OS scores, low text. One girl has gone from a two to a 12 in three weeks. If her teachers were RR trained, she wouldn't be with me...
Mary/PA - SS, what was holding her back?
SS - I have no idea. She was in the "Buzzards" group. I think the teachers are impatient. They probably tell her a word rather than wait for her to search (Which she does well!). I have found that teachers look at kids as not being able to meet the needs of the group, rather than the group meeting the needs of the kid.
Mary/PA - I have noticed that second rounders seem to settle for not making sense - they try searching V too much and will say nonsense and not know that this is not how reading should be, has anyone else noticed this?
ida - yes i am but i am new to this and just reading
ida - many of my kids are second language and don't know if it makes sense
Doug - Mary...yes....so would checking on oneseself (self-monitoring) be the child's focus?
leftcoast - one of my older ones does this, but my newest one monitors and self corrects for meaning
Mary/PA - The Pygmalion Effect
SS - I have noticed that, especially with kids who have a lot of words and sounds. They get stuck more easily in the visual soup. Plus, there is a good cahnce that their teachers are taking them to visual first.
Mary/PA - The Pygmalion Effect - do your second rounders suffer from this?
Doug - Does anyone write the main prompt that you are going to use for that day on top of the lesson plan...this helps me focus on both reading and writing
Mary/PA - Doug, not the main prompt, but the focus - which would be about the same thing
leftcoast - explain Pygmalian Effect, please
Doug - everyone...when you hear a lot of rereading....do you see it as searching behavior?
SS - Mix up your prompts. Using the same prompt will sound like nagging and the kid will tune you out, like I do with my wife everytime she asks me to do the dishes.
Mary/PA - The Pygmalion Effect is basically kids living up to what is expected of them - if a teacher thinks that a child just can't do it, they are treated as though they can't and the child soon behaves in this expected way
Doug - mary- jerry Brophy wrote a wonderful study called the self-fulfilling prophecy
leftcoast - OH, exactly. My first one discontinued went back into a classroom where the teacher still figured she can't do anything, despite having watched a lesson
Mary/PA - Doug, rereading can be to confirm or to search, usually searching structure
Doug - he told teachers that kids had high IQ's and the teachers treated "normal" kids as "gifted" and hence the discovery was made...normal kids can be treated like gifted kids and will perform that way if expected
Mary/PA - Robert Rosenthal did some research in the 60's about the teacher's expectations
Mary/PA - When you have a child who is doing too much searching V, do you hold back on Making and Breaking activities until they have more balance in their searching?
leftcoast - I suffered from that. Had an IQ test, group session under very stressful conditions, and it came out lower than it should have. My teachers made me fight hard for my marks. Not work hard, just fight hard.
Doug - mary- why would making and breaking confuse the child if he is overusing v with searching?
Mary/PA - I am concerned that if my focus for a child is to read for meaning or search S, but I then teach the Making and Breaking ... it feels like I am sending them mixed messages about what I want them to attend to
Mary/PA - Making and Breaking is so visual
leftcoast - but what if you were doing change part of the word, and associate it with a meaning task?
Mary/PA - On one hand I'm calling their attention away from V, but then turn around and call their attention to it
Doug - mary....are you following something that happened from the running record or yesterdays writing? I like to follow the writing because I find phonics to relate closer with writing...its just a hunch...how about you leftcoast and mary?
Mary/PA - leftcoast, how do you bring meaning into M & B?
Mary/PA - other than not using nonsense words
Doug - back to strategies.....does anyone feel that they have overused how do you know prompt for self-monitoring How do you know? I find that if I overuse it it tends to overwelm the child. Clay also cautions us about this in the GB
leftcoast - if you had just made a group of similar words, (make, take. lake), ask them to make the word that would be a place to swim?
Mary/PA - Oh, I see, thanks, leftcoast
leftcoast - doug, my TL says we have to do make and break from writing.
Mary/PA - Doug, I don't think I use it enough
T/1st/OK - Just realized-you're all RR. I'll leave you to it! You're losing me, on some of the terms. G'nite.
Mary/PA - I forget to ask them how they knew
Doug - When children verbalize what they do they use meta-comprehension but if they are low functioning....perhaps second language learners they tend to mimic desired responses...:"cuz it makes sense"
leftcoast - I use it in my K class, too, and other years in math. I don't think I use it enough, either.
Mary/PA - It doesn't make sense to me to take your M & B from the writing because Making and Breaking is what we want them to do in Taking Words appart during reading, isn't it?
leftcoast - Today one of my kindies used context to "read" the next word we were reading, and when I asked him how he iknew, he said it was because it started with a t. I know that's not what he did, but I didn't say so
Doug - do you ask are you right/how do you know when a child is right? I saw a teacher leader do it on a tape and it is very interesting...guidebook says it can be used for correct and incorrect responses
leftcoast - Thank you Mary.
leftcoast - brb/ My supper has been made for me so that I can be here.
Mary/PA - I do ask that one a lot, Doug - Were you right?
Doug - Mary- clay would laugh probably and say it depends on what the ki is doing and what the focus is....following the child usually brings us into divergent responses to the same behaviors
Mary/PA - I don't want them to rely on me for knowing if they were right
Doug - mary yes and that is the end result in self-monitoring
Doug - can I ask something....if I get a sc rate of 1:0 for maybe 4 days...I get very concerned. Does everyone watch closely the sc rates on the running records
Mary/PA - Do you mean nil? Yes I get concerned, to me that means there is a lack of processing and monitoring
leftcoast - maybe I'm out to lunch, but if they have made errors that are meaningful and sound right, I don't panic about them. Especially if they are visually similar.
Doug - Mary- Ken Goodman once said that miscues are purposeful/mindful behaviors
Doug - yes nil
Mary/PA - I guess it woulf depend upon where the child is in lessons and what your focus is for this child
Doug - mary- would that be your focus for a teaching point after the running record even if there were other strategic behaviors that could be verbalized and used as teaching points?
Mary/PA - But we do want them to get all the cues working together, so we wouldn't want the lack of SC to last very long
Doug - mary that is so true....all cues working together....
Mary/PA - Doug, my TP would have to be in line with my focus - if the miscue could have been corrected by attending to the focus, then I would use it
Doug - I was just asking because a child who gets 1:0 sc rates tend to not show processing and I believe it is alarming enough...perhaps that's why we have to write the rates each day on the book graph
Mary/PA - How often do you use the triple whammy - Did it look right, sound right and make sense?
Doug - yes...but before I ask that one I show through lots of modeling what those 3 mean in context of the reading of the book
Mary/PA - Yes, I wouldn't use that in the first lesson
leftcoast - I'm trying it more often now, and the "Were you right?" when they are, because they automatically think the answer should be no.
Doug - my kid needs the computer and my wife is yelling for me to go to the health club...I need to go...I loved tonight's session...thanks again
leftcoast - Thanks doug. bye
Doug - thanks mary....bye
Mary/PA - yes, leftcoast, they do think they must be wrong if they are questioned about it - they have been conditioned to that
Mary/PA - Oh, our hour is up
Mary/PA - I guess it's time to move on, thanks for coming this evening
Mary/PA - See you next time
leftcoast - Thank you Mary. As a first year in RR, and some kids that are not accelerating, I appreciate all the help I can get.
Mary/PA - Good night
