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Mary K&1 - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net.
Mary K&1 - What do you want to discuss this evening? We didn't set a topic last time.
tyylee - I just lost one of my second round kids. He came in at a level six and when I quickly did a text level test on Fri. he came out a level 10 after only four weeks. Is there any form we report this on?
Mary K&1 - Did he go to another RR school?
Mary K&1 - If not, on the scan form you just indicate that he moved - there is a place for that, I think.
tyylee - He wasn't sure where he was moving, just that he wouldn't be back after spring break. If he shows up at another rr school in our district I can work out transportation for him until he finishes his rr program.
tyylee - I have been reading with interest the discussion about 'benchmark' books in each level. I was wondering if anyone here had a list like that and what you thought about it. I'm not sure that the same books would be appropriate for every child since each child's program is to be individualized.
Mary K&1 - We were given a list in my training year. I used to use it, but don't any more. I didn't have all the books on the list and have lost some since then
lisa - I've got a child I've had over 100 lessons, and over 20 weeks, but I think I'll be able to discontinue him eventually. Would you keep working with him?
Mary K&1 - How much longer do you think it will take?
Mary K&1 - Lisa, is your building fully implemented?
Mary K&1 - Are there others who need you?
lisa - It's hard to say. He's very inconsistant. Probably within a month. He's at level 13. We have 2 RR teachers and 5 classes. No we aren't fully implemented and there are others who could use my services. Still, I've worked so hard with him and we've come so far...
Mary K&1 - lisa, there comes a time when you have to make that choice. You have to think of the others who haven't had a chance
tyylee - Lisa, I understant what you mean, I have one child who is about the same place as your child. I just wasn't ready to stop taking her so I am seeing her after school for a while in the hopes of discontinuing her soon. I don't like to do afterschool but I want her to be successful and we had a whole list of other students needing RR help.
lisa - Tyylee, that's a good idea. Maybe I can work with him after school.
Mary K&1 - He has had a full program, what about the others?
lisa - I know, but it's such a hard choice.
lisa - You're right. Time to think about the others.
Mary K&1 - I used to struggle with this problem, but I have learned that I have to pick up the others and give them a chance as well. If you wait a month, there isn't going to be much you can do with the child who takes the slot and you are going to feel badly about that.
tyylee - When you test children for discontinuing do you continue testing until the child misses the 90% cutoff. I am concerned because they often get to a level where they have lost all sense of meaning even though they are above 90%. I wonder if we should report that level or the level at which they can really work with comprehension.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, we are to keep going - I know what you mean - those texts do get beyond their understanding
lisa - We go until they get 2 in a row below 90%
tyylee - Mary, we also go until they have two hards but often what we report as their exit level is really higher than they can really work independently with comprehension and it bothers me to put it on the forms.
Mary K&1 - I know what you mean, tyylee, but I do what I am told to do. Sometimes if a child realy struggles to get a 90%, I'll start the next level, but if that's a struggle also, I don't go on and just mark it as being too difficult.
tyylee - When you pick up a child this late in the year do you still do a full ten days of roaming?
lisa - Good question.
ginny - my understanding is that we do have the ten sessions of roaming with our second round children
Mary K&1 - tyylee, we must do the full 10 RAKs unless we have special permission from our TL
tyylee - I will be picking up a child next week who has been in one of my Literacy groups all year. Since I know him well and he knows me, I was wondering if the full ten days of roaming were necessary.
Mary K&1 - If you have worked with the child in a literacy group or other program, your TL may tell you that you can cut some of the RAK sessions
ginny - I think you will find that working with the child in a one - one situation will be different than when you worked with him in your literacy group.
Mary K&1 - Tyylee, check with your TL, since you know the child and the child knows you, you can probably do fewer RAK sessions
ginny - you will probably see a lot of things you missed when you had him in a group and will feel much better prepared to begin his program after the time in roaming
Adrienne - We are told that we have to do the full 10 days of roaming. But at this point my kids are ready to learn and it is hard to hold them back
tyylee - Our Lit. groups are using RR techniques and RR leveled book sets and is only three children so I think I have a pretty good handle on his skills. Thanks Mary, I will contact my TL about it. I will ask if I can do only five days assure myself that I have not made any false assumptions about him.
sharon - I agree with Ginny. The keynotes of RATK are confidence and flexibility with the child's known info & strategies . That can't be hurried if it's to become secure and habituated.
Mary K&1 - It is harder to keep from teaching at this time of year, but at the same time, these kids have more skills with which to Roam - it is fun to just let them read and write and do a lot of observing
Adrienne - It is nice not to have the pressures of a lesson and I can actually get done in 30 min.!
Mary K&1 - I like Roaming with second round much more than first
sharon - My most recent student tested at text level 3 but came out of RATK in 7's. Today was lesson #9 and he is reading 9's very successfully. I am grageful to have the 10 sessions to investigate more of what he could do.
Adrienne - I have a question about the 4 Block program and would like to know if any of you have it in your building
ginny - the roaming sessions at this time of year look so different from those we do early on. I see this as a time to allow the child to really pull together everything he has learned and integrate things so when I move to lessons he has that processing going and I can build on it with tesxts just a bit more challenging
Mary K&1 - At the beginning of this year we were told not to move the child up levels during roaming, what do you all think about this?
sharon - Mary...what is the rationale for not moving a student up?
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, we don't have it, but I wish we did. It sure would help our children
Adrienne - We have always moved up ours in Roaming but my first year we did not and everyone else that had already trained seemed to be flying.
tyylee - I have found that I need to start some children lower that the level they tested in at to insure that they are reading at a comfortable level. I do move the children up if I see that they are capable of doing more processing .
Mary K&1 - sharon - staying with what the child already knows and can do - keeping it easy, very easy
sharon - I certainly concur with keeping it easy but found as I took a running record that he was quite successful in 5's, then 6's.
Adrienne - I am forturnate that my second round kids are coming in at level 9 this year. That is extremely high but says a lot for my first grade teachers who have bought into reading recov strategies 100%
tyylee - Keeping it easy and fluent is the important thing in Roaming according to out TL
Mary K&1 - I can't remember from where this directive came, but that is what we were told to do. I don't mind it now, but for the first rounders it was very difficult - I had to write all their texts because they all tested at level A
sharon - Wow...Adrienne-level 9. Good for those students and their teachers. What is the range of levels for discontinuing at this time of the year and end of the year where you are?
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, that is wonderful!! Mine are coming in at levels 2 - 4!
ginny - I have found that many of the second wave children come in with little confidence and bits and pieces in place but not able to pull everything together. The easy reading in roaming helps them pull the system together as well as build confidence and develop fluency.
tyylee - Mine are coming in all over the board, levels 4, 5, 6, and 8.
Adrienne - My students are just inventors they can talk great stories it just doesn't look right. My discon had to have a 14 at the begin of Feb. Now a 16 at the end of the year 18-20 depending on the classroom ave.
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, they are inventing at level 9?
tyylee - Ginny, how right you are! The kids have sight vocabulary but little or no skills except sounding out using every letter. Once we give them some other strategies to use they usually make rapid progress.
sharon - My little guy came in with high item knowledge--WV 37, HRSIW35, but couldn't put it together on text. His focus is monitoring visual detail.
Adrienne - They aren't inventing but substituting for a word that sounds right but doesn't look right. was for were etc.
Mary K&1 - sharon, what level?
sharon - My district is using the 4 block model a guided reading component based on Fountas & Pinnell book. Students are picking up many items but don't have strategies to problem-solve.
ginny - I have no problem with the reading books part of roaming with my second rounders but would love some help on the writing part. Any ideas you can share?
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, that looks right at the beginning and maybe that's the way they talk
sharon - He tested Level 3 but is reading level 9's very successfully after 2 weeks of lessons RATK.
sharon - That should have said RATK=4 weeks in program
Adrienne - sharon, is there another block program by cunningham or what is the difference. What is the Kdg. Prog.
tyylee - If a child uses poor grammar in their oral speach I find it very hard to change their oral reading when they are reading with some fluency. Any suggestions?
Mary K&1 - ginny, you can do it like lessons, but share the pen more. Jump in right away when they can't write a word. Keep the list of words that they wrote during the OS handy and those are the words they write, you write the others. Sometimes you will hear them say "I can write ____" - one that they didn't write during OS. When that happens, let them write it.
Adrienne - tyylee, it seems that some of the lang clears up after they read more frequently and see book talk.
tyylee - For example was for were
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, the Kindergarten program is call Building Blocks
sharon - Our district has developed a literacy model which integrates the Cunningham 4 block model and a guided reading component. As far as I know, 4 block is the only Cunningham program. Have you read Classrooms that Work? She describes the program in that book.
tyylee - I love o make little books for second round writing. Then these books become part of their familiar reading.
ginny - Thanks, Mary. I probaly have not been letting the children do enough of what they can do.
Mary K&1 - 4 Blocks has a guided reading block, but this is done with the whole class, not ability groups
Adrienne - I find in the writing component that we make stories over 3 or 4 days and then I put them into a long story and type them on the computer and they love reading the whole paragraph
sharon - Where are each of you from? Did any of you attend the Southeastern RR conference held last week in Greensboro, NC/
cyndy - I'm from Colchester Vermont/ went to the Ohio conference
ginny - someone mentioned on the list serve that they thought there was new info coming out about book orientations. Has any one heard anything?
Mary K&1 - I'm in PA and I didn't go to any conferences this year
Doug - i'm going hog wild with fluency and phrasing with second rounders....i hope it will pay off
Adrienne - I attend the Ohio conf and found it great. We have ours in Chicago and I found Ohio much more informative
ginny - I am from PA, too, and attende the conference in Baltimore. It was excellent.
cyndy - Those of you thinking of 4 blox- might want to look at ELLI from Lesley College
Doug - Adrienne- i have been reading people's notes from the Ohio conference...it sounded like a good one
Mary K&1 - ginny, the latest that I heard about book orientations is that you give a full one clear up to the end, I did that with my first rounders, but it didn't work out well, they didn't do well in the testing situation, so I don't think I'll so it again - so much for doing what I'm told to do
tyylee - Doug, I never sent you the info about ordering the tapes from Ohio, lost your email addy. Do you still want it?
Doug - mary- every time I tape record my book intros I cant hear it as a conversation. How about you?
Adrienne - I have my notes partly type and tried to do some in the hotel at night but once you get back home it is hard to get to the computer to type them I did buy 8 tapes of sessions I didn't get to go to and have been listening to them in the car daily
cyndy - The tapes need to be ordered from RRCNA now. Go to Reading recovery.org
Doug - tyylee- thanks...got the address from gsn(global school network)
cyndy - This is the Ohio tapes
Mary K&1 - Doug, I don't have time to tape them, I hope that they sound like conversations with the child contributing a great deal
tyylee - We were told that book intros should change as the program goes on and by the end they should be brief and the child should be doing their own picture walk.
sharon - Recording is a good reflection tool. I agree that intro's should sound like a conversation--not an interrogation "What's happening here?" "What do you see now?" etc
cyndy - hey guys I tried the pipe phone today and it's really cool. Helped a kids hear the diff between short e and short a during writing. Also helped another hear the n in went. Usually very hard to hear sounds
Mary K&1 - tyylee, that is what we did up until this year when our TL told us differently - I tried it and it didn't work, I won't do it again
Adrienne - I thought book intro does change over time and moves to a minimum intro and that is when I let the child also do the picture walk
tyylee - Interesting, we were told not to do too much 'questioning' of the child during a book intro.
Mary K&1 - I think that from now on I'm sticking to the GB - if it's not in there, I'm not doing it
cyndy - we are jumping around. Sorry. I'm off now. Nice to meet you all.
Doug - Here's one to talk about...our interim TL told us that on Clay's last visit to Southern California she did not see Reading recovery....meaning anything over 30 is not RR
tyylee - Our TL told us that her next TL meeting was to go over the lesson components because their were too many differences being observed and that our next Continuing Contact meeting we would be going over them again, too.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, not so much questioning, but more of the child predicting what is happening by looking at the pictures and telling about what he sees in them
sharon - Anyone have any wisdom about making & breaking that they're willing to share?
Mary K&1 - Predicting what he thinks is being said etc
Doug - sharon- follow writing from the day before, have letter id under control and a few basic words befor onset and rime
KdsBks=Fun - did anyone go the the SE RR conference last week?
sharon - I'm looking for help with a little guy that has many words under control in writing and is making miscues like bushes/branches; Saturday/Sunday. My focus is to help him search visual detail.
Mary K&1 - Make notes during writing and also look at the rr - find what the child can do and what he is having troubles with - plan how to take him from something he can do to something new he needs in his reading and writing
Adrienne - Depending on the level your child is at---I have found these type of making an breaking to be valuable with especially second round children that are not looking for chuncks and across the words. ( in -- win winter) It helps them to look for something that they know that could help them
KdsBks=Fun - do you know how to get tapes for the conference? I heard there were some really good sessions.
sharon - Today's M&B was she and look =shook & Charlie and will = chill.
tyylee - There was an excellent session at Ohio on making the connection between what you observe when the child is reading and writing and what you do in Make and Break. Basically, look to see what portion of visual processing the child is not attending to and plan make and break to draw the child
Doug - sharon- try searching (TTA and see if you can make sense) Remember in the story when.....
sharon - He handled that very well.
tyylee - attention to that area of the words.
sharon - I did attend the SERR conference
AJ - Any advice on working with sound boxes? I have a student who doesn't like using them at all!
Brenda - sound boxes ... begin with some words the child knows so he can be successful
sharon - Gotta go plan Charlie's lesson for tomorrow. I'm planning on introducing Tricking Tracy.
ginny - AJ - Does he do well with the sounds boxes?
Doug - AJ- did you use the GB with the introductory lessons...you push i say...I push you say etc. work with mirror at the very beginning...this is all in the GB
Mary K&1 - AJ, can he say words slowly? if not do a lot of that - stretch the words out - play a game where you say words very slowly and see if he can say the word (in a normal way) to see if he can recognize it, then have him say one for you to "guess"
Adrienne - back to the pipe phone, I wonder what you do about germs and does each child have their own phone???
tyylee - Good idea, Mary. I will use that for one of mine!!!!
Doug - AJ model model model...hold the child's hands as she stretches
Brenda - I'd suggest being careful about too much stretching the word out...ends up later where there are a lot of extra sounds that get added into words ..
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, get a box of those alcohol swabs that people who have to get injections every day use, and wipe the phone off with them
tyylee - I have one child who always hears a 'w' in words like gowin (going). That is the way he says it and so that is what he writes.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, going is a good word to take to flenency during fluency work before or after the lesson - tell him that "this is how it looks"
Mary K&1 - He'll be right on for words like 'growing, mowing, knowing' - but plowing will be a surprise! Just tell him, "this is how it looks, often words don't look the way they sound, we must learn how they look".
AJ - Thanks for the sound box advice. Very helpful!
Adrienne - Mary K&1 Thats a good idea. I was just worried with so much flu and colds
Mary K&1 - Brenda, I agree, but to get the child started you have to exageratate - after he gets it, the exageration isn't needed any longer
Doug - tyylee- even with the mouth shape thing?
tyylee - What mouth shape thing?
Doug - adrienne- i use anti bacterial spray with everything
Doug - tyylee- look at my mouth...now you get your mouth ready
Brenda - MaryK&1 .. yes but we only exaggerate the sound that he's struggling with which typically is the beginning or ending or some dominant sound ... it's not about exaggerating the entire word at any point.
Brenda - Agreed on the value of going as a fluent visual word rather than continuing to use it in sound boxes and reinforce something that does not work.
Mary K&1 - Brenda, yes, but for those children who can't say words slowly, what else can be done? We have to help them know how to say the words slowly
Doug - were people ignoring me with my TL's bombshell...anything over 30 min is not RR according to Clay....yikes...any comments?
Brenda - MaryK&1 ... teach how to say a word slowly on a known word to teach the task and then move to unknown words in order to hear and record the sounds.
Mary K&1 - Doug, I don't understand, it has always been 30 min, we were never supposed to go over - I can't any way, my schedule is too tight
Doug - brenda- if that doesn't work just bring out the magnetic letter to show what you are doing...are you doing enough cummulative analysis (some people call it crash)
ginny - I think we have always been told to have 30 minute lessons. Maybe Marie is trying to get her point across again.
Brenda - Doug .. tonight at dinner we had a major conversation about the 30 minute lesson. It's not that 30 minutes is so sacred as is the fact that if we are sticking with one or two memorable teaching points within our lessons then there is never an issue about the 30 minutes.
tyylee - Doug, didn't understand the first time that you meant 30 minutes. I know she researched the thirty minutes and feels that that is as long as a child can attend well but I find it difficult to get everything done. My schedule this year is making me stick to thirty minutes but it is a struggle.
Adrienne - I like to use the example of it is like pulling gum out of your mouth. If you jerk the gum it will break but if you pull slowly it will stretch and we can pull the words out of our mouths one letter at a time and it has helped my kids to slow down enough to here the n in words like went
Doug - Mary- the bombshell was that at upper levels many of us go aver ....for Clay, this is not acceptable
Mary K&1 - Brenda, that's what we do - we say the known words slowly, until they get the idea - I think that we are saying the same theng here :-\
ginny - I have always struggled with lesson times. When I watch lessons on visits and they go much over I usually find that the teacher is trying to do too much or the child is not fluent. There is usually a reason for long lessons.
Mary K&1 - I see, Marie has discovered this and is not pleased? I'm not surprised, I didn't think she would be.
Brenda - I agree with Ginny ,,, even in higher levels the child should be doing everything he needs to do within the 30 minutes
tyylee - I find that fluency is one of the keys for thirty minute lessons! Doug, what kinds of things are you doing to promote fluency?
Doug - my RR friends that work in my room send me messages over the partitions...that helps
Mary K&1 - Lucky you Doug, you have coworkers
Doug - tyylee- i use the cut up to put into phrases, i use read it like a story in many places and i also say read the punctuation
Doug - mary- they'll throw something over the partition....I yell back thanks
Adrienne - I think that when you can get the punctuation into the writing portion that be begin to use it more in reading for fluency
Mary K&1 - Writing seems to be the big topic this year for our CC sessions, do we want to set writing as a topic?
ginny - Possible topic? how about book orientations since we have some concerns about some of the things we are hearing.
Mary K&1 - Adrienne, good point
Mary K&1 - Thanks for coming and good night all.
