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Mary/PA - The reading Recovery Metting will begin in about 5 minuts. Tonight's topic is Writing
Midwest - Hello--I just got back from my RR training meeting, and we were discussing writing.
leftcoast - good timing
leftcoast - midwest, how often are your meetings?
Midwest - Every week--I'm in my initial year.
leftcoast - I'm in my training year, too, we met for a few days in the summer, once a week in Sept, and now every second week, but we cover a large geographical area.
Midwest - Isee. I drive an hour to get to my meetings.
greedycat - I was just writing myself. We are being urged to lobby at the national level to have Reading Recovery included in theReading First Initive so I just sent e-mails to both my senators.
leftcoast - In our district there is a new group that is meeting to try to find the best ways to help the bottom 20% of our kids in grade one. RR is not at all schools
3seat - i need a chat tonight...felt like packing all my little reading recovery goodies today and skipping out the door
leftcoast - oh, oh, there was a week and 2 weekends and they forgot everything they knew?
Midwest - I know the feeling, leftcoast--we're not fully implemented in my district, and they're toying with the idea of some Reading Mastery groups!
greedycat - I have not heard of ANY other way that is more highly documented for helping the lowest students than RR
leftcoast - well, the people behind the "task force" are RR.
3seat - no leftcoast...i have had 3 lessons with one boy in 3 weeks cause his parents don't send him to school....i really don't want to drop him but am feeling pressure to do so
Midwest - I agree, Greedycat--I think that D.I. stuff is pretty political - feeding into parents' fears.
leftcoast - is there any other help for him if you drop him?
3seat - not really his round of support in the resource room is over....
leftcoast - my second rounder gained ground over the break. He's on to 8 tomorrow.
3seat - i think that right has become an assumption midwest...not appreciated as it should be
greedycat - One of the things I think that should mean is that every student that needs help should have equal access to it. But, until we do have full implemenation of RR, we still pick and choose who receives the services and who doesn't. That's not a decision I am comfortable with.
Midwest - Do any of you have a second rounder who's writing skills are way above their reading level?
3seat - leftcoast this is the one i was hoping to discontinue.....never comes...so frustrating as we just have some fine tuning but he is already developing a laid back attitude to school...ie it is a waste of time when you could be watching videos
greedycat - On the topic of writing, my second round students often come in with high WV and HSIW scores but low text levels. Do others see that same pattern? How can we help them to use their strengths in writing to help them read more efficiently/
Midwest - That's the question!
3seat - greedycat i agree 100% especially when they are so young and we are picking and choosing...i have kids who i know would receive tons of home support and probably fly through but i have to take the lowest and they stay so long as there is no home support and they do not attend
leftcoast - midwest, I haven't. But some kids brains let them learn to read from learning to write instead of the other way around or as eventually happens, feeding each other.
3seat - midwest i have one who hears and connects sounds to letters in writing very well but i am having trouble guiding him to transfer this to reading
Midwest - It just baffles me that a student can go from sound to letter with little trouble, but doesn't want to look at print during the reading task!
3seat - true midwest.....i have the personal theory that writing is more engaging for them and they have a more personal connection
greedycat - Midwest, have you tried prompting him/her to think of the word in text as though it were in boxes (if it is an appropriate word)
Midwest - I am doing lots of making and breaking - but I'll try that, greedycat.
greedycat - I have even gone so far as lightly penciling in boxes around a word in text for a SHORT while
leftcoast - It helps if you can point out a word that they are having difficulty with, that they have just written.
Midwest - Yes, 3seat, and forces the student to slow down and think. This particular student does lots of predicting of words that don't even match first letter.
greedycat - The crash procedure (page 47 of GB, I think) is also a way of using that letter-sound sequence
Mary/PA - Isn't that normal for emergent readers?
greedycat - The biggest "can of worms" around the topic of writing has been Barbara Watson's statement at a recent conference that we should not be doing fluent writing review.
Mary/PA - Writing forces them to slow down and attend to detail
3seat - we are not taught to do that as apparently north americans did a poor job of it...wasn't that it leftcoast?
Mary/PA - I think that there may be some confusion about what she meant...I didn't hear her
3seat - that is not to do the fluent writing review
Midwest - Excuse my ignorance....What's the fluent writing review?
greedycat - Barbara said that it gives people a false impression that RR is about teaching words
leftcoast - thank you, I didn't want to ask
3seat - i think....it is when they write their known words at the beginning of the lesson...is that right
greedycat - fwr is from GB page 30 and is returning to a word that was taken to fluency the day before
Mary/PA - Before the lesson begins, The GB says that you may review new words that have been learned ... or something like that
Midwest - Oh, we call it a "fluency check"
3seat - oh i see
greedycat - Once students have learned HOW TO learn words, is it still necessary to check words learned the day or two before?
Mary/PA - I think we've been confused about the 7 ways of knowing and have been asking kids to be fluent with a word before they are ready
leftcoast - If we take making and breaking words from their writing, would that be a fluency review"
Mary/PA - greedycat, I don't think so
Midwest - Your're probably right, Mary. They haven't had enough experiences with the word yet.
greedycat - Agreed , Mary. We do a lot of working with an item and getting it to the controlled with lapses stage of knowing but too often stop there without working for automaticity
3seat - good point leftcoast..and building on it...guess it would have to always be recent words though for review
Mary/PA - No, M&B is about how to manipulate known words to get the new words and seeing and using known parts
Mary/PA - Fluent writing is words that are just known without thinking about how to write them
3seat - is the purpose of the review to allow them to see words as orthographic patterns mary?
Mary/PA - Yes, to just know them automatically
Mary/PA - My TL has kids go to the board before the lesson and tells them to "Write a word you know" instead of telling them a word to write
3seat - so it would make sense to do that to me and then to do mb to show how words are put together
3seat - why are we told not to do the review
Mary/PA - Not patterns so much as a word as a unit that they know ... it's like the writing counterpart of reading sight words
Mary/PA - I don't know why you are being told not to do it, we haven't been told that
greedycat - Have a productive discussion, everyone. I am signing off to go work on new book selections for tomorrow.
Mary/PA - We are told not to ask a child to fluently write a word before he knows it well in every way
Mary/PA - Thanks for coming greedycat
3seat - mary we were told by our tl that north americans do a poor job so we were supposed to take it out
leftcoast - One of my kids does not hear sounds that he says, but he hears them when I say them. He has word retrieval problems in speech, so he often can't name the letter, but I ask him to write the sound.
Mary/PA - I see, I hope that they don't do that with all the parts of the lesson that North Americans do poorly
Mary/PA - We may not have much of a lesson left
leftcoast - lol,Mary
3seat - hee hee mary......i could be having some pretty short lessons...seriously isn't that what we were told leftcoast?
Mary/PA - leftcoast, when you do that, is he able to write the correct letter?
leftcoast - and we were told that we as teachers do a good job of sounding the words out for writing, but the kids don't
Midwest - It's very easy to do too much for the child, isn't it?
Mary/PA - Yes, I know what that means, we do too much of the work for the child...we meaning most teachers...I see this happening all the time in regular classrooms...it's a habit that's hard to break
Mary/PA - The hardest part of the lesson is keeping my mouth shut
leftcoast - Mary, sometimes I have to tell him alphabet book connecting word. eg, he's writing Month, and he says month, doesn't hear it. I say month, and he says there's a mmmmmm. I say , good, write the mmmmm. nothing. I say M. nothing. I say Money (that's his abc book picture) he writes an "m"
Mary/PA - He knows letters by a word...did this show up in the OS?
leftcoast - He knew only his name letters. and a couple of others.
Midwest - I kind of wonder about that, too --It's hard to determine (I'm in my first year) how much prompting to do, and at what point the child needs to take over the control and figure out how to use the strategies we're trying to teach him/her.
3seat - leftcoast it sounds like he does have some connection....maybe the others will come
Mary/PA - Maybe he dosn't know that it is OK to know letters by a word he associates with it
leftcoast - He still can't name them, but I think it's the speech thing, because sometimes he will write his guess, or take the magnetic letters.
Mary/PA - How is he with names of people?
leftcoast - He stutters badly
Mary/PA - Maybe he has a problem with names of all kinds
Mary/PA - Does he have a limited oral vocab?
leftcoast - The speech and language pathologist was working with him, but dropped him because of poor attendance. He has difficulty naming objects, as well.
3seat - i have a boy reading at level 14 ...writing is a bit behind what i would like to see..he will go to the whiteboard and string together random letters then ask me what it says......
Mary/PA - One thing that my TL says and does is to never let a kid sound out a high utility/frequency word.
Midwest - I have a boy that does that with every making and breaking session....he says, What if it were this? And rearranges the letters. He insists I pronounce these nonsense words for him, but I don't want to do it, because I'm thinking it might harm?
Mary/PA - If a child is reading or writing and has any difficulty at all with one of these words she takes him right the the mag. letters to start to learn the word
Mary/PA - Does he say it?
Mary/PA - You could say it, and ask him if that's a word...sounds like he's exploring how words work
3seat - midwest i have been telling him that we need certain letters together to make words just like a jigsaw puzzle has to fit together to make a picture.....i have started to ask him to read the random letters but i think sometimes he is being silly and avoiding work
leftcoast - That's my instinct with this one, because he really connects with the magnets. And once he has it with the magnets, he can read it and write it, but this is the scary part, he can look at the jumbled letters and tell you what word it will make, and do it.
Midwest - Mine doesn't usually....he justs smiles if I pronounce a nonsense word.
Mary/PA - Always have the child Check the word after he writes it or puts it together with mag. letters
Mary/PA - When in the lesson is this happening?
Midwest - During making and breaking, Mary.
3seat - the boy i am trying to help transfer what he knows in writing to his reading has suddenly stopped self correcting any hints...he is also the one i get no home support for
Mary/PA - Midwest, during M&B do you tell him words to make?
Midwest - No, I usually have him take the first part of one word and the last part of another and connect them.
Mary/PA - Does he let all miscues pass?
darthyRRAL - Home support can "make or break" RR
Mary/PA - Is he ready for that? Does he know how words work?
3seat - today he was totally reading for meaning....reading dinosaur chase it was like he was not even attending to some text
darthyRRAL - Midwest, how many lessons, how many known words??
Midwest - I think we're around lesson 25, with about 34 known words.
3seat - i agree darthy...only so far we can go and they really need the practice...fortunately my principal will listen to the kids read if their parents don't but this little one has not been coming to school regularily
leftcoast - 3, do the miscues work?
darthyRRAL - 3seat, have you sent a warning letter for attendance?
3seat - sometimes leftcoast but sometimes they are very bizarre...today everything was 'stupid' think he is getting this from dad
leftcoast - darthy, what do you warn?
3seat - yes darthy my principal sent a very abrupt letter also...trouble is i really see reading recovery working for this little guy but i think his parents see school as a waste of time
darthyRRAL - Mid, I only have 8 weeks left, how many do you have?
Midwest - Well, I have to get some sleep - another busy day tomorrow. Thanks everyone.
darthyRRAL - left, we are allowed to drop for excessive absences, can you?
leftcoast - we were told that poor attendance was not a reason not to have the kid in RR
Mary/PA - That's a really low word bank for that many lessons...I think...he sounds to me like he really doesn't know how words work and needs practice just bulding words from a given pool of letters...he's not ready for analogies
3seat - yes we can but i hate to do that....i have had him all year but we have had only 86 lessons due to absences
3seat - left is that one still not coming to school?
darthyRRAL - Mary, I think the word list is very low. We can drop during the program for excessive absences.
Mary/PA - WOW, I haven't thought about how many weeks we have left...I better figure that out
leftcoast - well, he's proud of the 4 happy faces I have drawn for all 5 lessons in one week
Mary/PA - What is excessive?
darthyRRAL - I had one great success this semester, got one out in 9 weeks.
Mary/PA - That's good leftcoast
Mary/PA - That is good, darthy!! At what level did this child enter the program?
3seat - wow was that a first or second round darthy
leftcoast - Four calls to Child Protection have helped, but he's stillnot at shcool unitl 10
darthyRRAL - one has terrible speech, interferres with reading, and he cries, I used baldfaced bribary - a bag of M&M's from the teacher's lounge candy machine
Mary/PA - What do we want to discuss next time?
3seat - that is the stage we are at leftcoast.....your school supports keeping him in RR....i am getting pressure to get other kids into the program...from parents as well as staff
darthyRRAL - Mary, she entered on TEst book 3, exited on test book 12
leftcoast - my TL says I can drop him and have him referred for testing, but there is nothing else for him, especially after S&L path dropped him
Mary/PA - Is there a set number on absences to be considered excessive?
3seat - mary i would love to discuss those of you with more experience have helped parents to buy into the program and how to encourage support.....i know this is not part of the lesson structure but seems to be my biggest frustration at present
darthyRRAL - I think leftcoast should drop him and go on with RR
Mary/PA - That's great!
Mary/PA - 3seat, I have pretty much given up on parent support
3seat - i feel very bad for students like yours and mine left as they are little and some of the choices are not their own...hard to get yourself to school when you are six
darthyRRAL - THat's a good idea 3seat, also some suggestions for things we could do this summer to prepare for next year. My system provides us a make and take workshop in July
Mary/PA - I have found that I can't change the parents and that the child is his/her only hope and that he/she has to learn how to survive on his/her own
3seat - really mary.....i guess i should accept it and get on with it but it is tough when i have supportive parents asking if their kids are going to be able to receive rr this year...they know it is only available for grade one
Mary/PA - I have to find ways to teach the child how to help himself....isn't that sad
darthyRRAL - RUn as fast as you can to those supportive parents, you need the PR
3seat - mary that is the type of thing i would like to discuss....what strategies you teach your students etc.
Mary/PA - 3seat, I know what you are saying, it's a difficult situation
3seat - yes darthy but their children are not the lowest
darthyRRAL - This is my 9th yr in RR - how long for you
Mary/PA - I've had forced parental support backfire on me and the child
Mary/PA - After the child is discontinued the parents think that's the end of their job and they quit working with the child and then the child goes down hill
3seat - mary i think that is what is happening with the little guy i have been talking about....parents saw the attendence warning letter as a threat...the child has a very negative attitiude towards school which is very new for him
darthyRRAL - Mary, I don't think there is a "pat" answer, and yes, some do quit being parents
3seat - darthy my first year....i really love the program just have to learn to accept the frustrations
Mary/PA - I work very hard for independence
darthyRRAL - Oh, 3seat, PLEASE stay with RR, it will get better
3seat - yes mary but many parents do not feel that is there job
darthyRRAL - Oh, yes, Mary, I strive for student independence - even move my chair away from the table when necessary
3seat - i think i will take your advice and work on independence and personal responsibility mary ....the kids are proud of their accomplishments which is a good thing
Mary/PA - If you are lucky, you may have a regular classroom teacher who will provide time for the child to read and write and maybe put together his CUS
darthyRRAL - 3seat, really look for ANY independence, and I use a world of stickers, and I go to the classroom and brag on my students
Mary/PA - My TL has one of her first round kids work with a second rounder to do her CUS
leftcoast - my highlight was a great sentence this little guy wrote with good fluent words, and then he said, it was easy, because I just used easy words. The thing is, two weeks earlier, they were unknown words.
3seat - thanks for your support all...i feel so much better knowing i am not alone in the lack of support....you have given me some great ideas
darthyRRAL - I've had great luck in using a child who was successful to tutor one in the program that needs support, sometimes I get a 2nd grader
3seat - that is great leftcoast...it is so nice to see them developing confidence in themselves
Mary/PA - 3seat, the lack of parental support is part of the reason these kids are the lowest
Mary/PA - It's a family trait
leftcoast - aBIG part
3seat - good night all hope to chat to you again soon.....see you wednesday left i will bring your books
Mary/PA - It's a problem that has to be addressed in something other than a short term program
leftcoast - Good, I had forgotten about them.
Mary/PA - Good night and thanks for coming
darthyRRAL - My funny last week was when the greedy cat ate the man's omelet, my student read, he ate the man's envelope - I just ignored it
Mary/PA - Maybe next time we can talk about what we can do to get independence
leftcoast - good night mary, nice to meet you darthy, see you Wednesday, 3seat.
leftcoast - I think getting independence is a good idea for a topic.
Mary/PA - Was there an envelope in the picture?
darthyRRAL - good night nice to chat with you
Mary/PA - Thanks for coming
darthyRRAL - No not an envelope, an omelet!!!
Mary/PA - Well I'm off for now, Thanks for coming
darthyRRAL - Mary, that was my "speech" student, and he was trying
