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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net.
Mary/PA - Tonight we will discuss "The Teacher's Role In Change Over Time During Writing".
Mary/PA - Writing... early, what's the teachers's role, what dies the teacher do?
Jill - In early writing, I try to make the child at ease expressing their ideas. I let them write the words they know, and I write the rest. This is only during roaming though.
Elaine - I think early on the teacher needs to establish the task with the child of how to generate a message from a picture drawn
Mary/PA - Early in the child's program, the teacher does a lot of modeling, and teaching
Jill - That's a good idea, I've never really done that. Sometimes we draw about what we have written - but not the other way. I imagine it helps them make a connection to books.
connie - how do teachers follow the change over time in writng?
Elaine - I spend all the time in the known on having the child draw a picture, talk about it, come up with a message. I write the message for him/her
Mary/PA - How much attention do you give to letter formation?
Jill - I think as the student changes, the teacher relinquishes control over the task.
Sandi - Is our role to teach letter formation or to help the child write the message?
Jill - Mary, I have a question. I have one student who just has poor motor skills. I started to concentrate on letter formation , but then quit becuase it seemed futile. As I have given him "smaller" boundaties (lines), he has gotten better. Any thoughts?
Elaine - I follow the change over time in writing by listening to how much prompting I need to do. I feel I should not be talking too much once I have taught something- for example use of boxes. I put them right on the page and don't tell the child what he needs to do. If I have to, I know I haven't taught it properly
Katydid/Ca. - Elaine, I agree with you that it is helpful to pay attention to our prompting. If we are prompting the child to things we have already "taught", then somewhere our teaching fell short.
Jill - Elaine, I like the way you said that. It is a very powerful statement on how we teach, If we have taught it well, the child will do it.
Mary/PA - Poor motor control has been a problem for me also this year. I have also resorted to establishing boundaries. I put a strip of correction tape on the page before the child strats to write and tell him to try to saty on the tape.
Jill - With my recently discontinued students, I just handed them the journal and they wrote. If they needed boxes, they would ask me. We got into some great fun with long words like: computer and yesterday.....
Mary/PA - But early in the child's program, sometimes it's hard for them to remember, it takes a bit of time. When they start to remember how and what to do, they are appraoching the middle of the program, no?
connie - could counting the high frequency words be of help in knowing if the child is changing over time? Like the DeFord research?
Elaine - I think the writing needs to be fluent at end of program the way we expect the reading to be. The child should not be slow, or stopping, or talking about strategies used. They should write quickly, and know when they need boxes or other support as Jill has said
Katydid/Ca. - I have found it is really helpful to prompt for the metacognitive for some children. "Think about where you will begin to write." "What will you use to think about how that word begins?" Plus it gives me a window on the child's thinking.
Mary/PA - connie, that depends, high frequency words are one thing, being able to write unknown words is another
Elaine - Connie- I look to see if I am taking a new word to fluency each day. If I am not- it usually means the writing is not going fast enough, and that is why I don't have time to take words to fluency. Then I analyze why the writing is slowing down. That tells me more than number of H-f words.
Mary/PA - Katy that is a very good thing to do, I have to remember to do it more. Too often the child starts without thinking and after a letter or two says "OOps!"
connie - it seems to take my children about three days to get the word known, and then we are writing it the first thing before the lesson.
Katydid/Ca. - Yes Mary. Sometimes I think that many children haven't accelerated in the classroom because they have no schema for how to think about the task.
Mary/PA - connie, 3 days isn't too bad early in the program
Jill - In reference to what Katy just said, I think that is going to be one of the greatest benefits to being in the classroom. Even though I won't be using a "reading Recovery" method, my students will be learning the vocabulary of "strategies."
Elaine - Connie- are you having the child write it about 18 x /lesson- on the work page, at chalboard and white board. Barbara Watson says that is how many time the child should be writing the new HF word. I
Mary/PA - Being able to write HF words is just part of the task of writing, composing the message and knowing how to use the sounds boxes to write the words they do not know is another part. Do you find the the second round students don't need to stay in sound boxes very long?
Jill - 18 times? I hadn't heard that. Doesn't it take alot of time?
Elaine - That is why the writing has to be moving along quickly. The important thing, is that the child is practicing the word at several mediums, not just on the work page.
Jill - I found that my second round students who have already discontinued have readily caught on to the task of generating words.
Katydid/Ca. - Yes Mary. And especially if my prompting has been to how words "look" "Do you know a word that looks like that?" "It makes sense, but it doesn't look right." etc.
connie - did anyone else read the section about letters and writing and realize that Clay never says to stop teaching those letters automatically?
Jill - What does she mean by that connie?
Katydid/Ca. - Elaine I believe BW said it--but I've heard her enough not to faint when she says things like that. I wholeheartedly agree about the different mediums though.
Elaine - I don't do it 18x on work page. It's maybe 8x on Wp, 5x at chalkboard, 5x on whiteboard. The power is in having the child write the new word in different places
Katydid/Ca. - At the last conference MC had a lot kto say about fast responding--about everything connie. She wants us to get things to automaticity.
connie - I have figured that Clay meant that if a child is automatic with letters, then she can use them a a quicker pace during the boxes or in writing.
Elaine - In order to do things like taking a word to fluency 18x is that the child has to be generating a message he wants to write fairly quickly. I think the key to it is being able to get the child to generate an interesting story, and not asking him 20 questions in order to do so.
Katydid/Ca. - Is anyone here from Canada? Heard she was just there at a T. L. conference and was to announce some changes.
Jill - Any suggestions for a child in week 10 who's processing is so slow that he can read his book and acheive a 90 percent - but it takes 6-8 minutes per book?
Jill - Forgot to mention, level 10.
Elaine - Jill- I would analyze everyting that child is doing, including how quickly he is turning the pages, if he starts right in on a new page. In order to discontinue, I think time is a factor. If a child passes alevel, but takes too long to read the book he's not ready
Katydid/Ca. - Usually they have processed quickly and automatically at 95% and above. I would look at level, type of book, etc. MC said that fast responding has to start in roaming and we have to demand it in everything the child knows.
Jill - Elaine, I agree, except that he is slw at all tasks, not just reading.
Elaine - I would get the reading going fast and fluent on some easy text. I would hit it hard during familiar reading. I would time how long it is taking him to read each text and try to figure out what is causing the slowdowns.
Jill - Good idea, thanks!
Jill - O.K. then, another brain teaser. I have another student who is on a level 12, in English. He is a native Spanish speaker. Can I overlook some structural mistakes, if I know he has the meaning? (look for looked, etc...)
connie - I had a child who was writing very large, and this past week (7th week) he was writing a bit smaller, and when I showed him the difference, he started to write smaller on the board and on his book, so that I think it takes the opportune time to show them that they are getting some things under control.
Jill - What do you think about sturcture for second language children Mary?
Mary/PA - connie, do you mean that you showed him an axample of his large writing compared to his smaller?
Mary/PA - I have no experience with second language students. But I think that as long as the meaning is being held, that you can over look some things, you've gotten him this far, you probably know better than anyone
Katydid/Ca. - I used to let those go too Jill, but now I prompt and even overemphacize the endings. They have endings in Sp. too. It's got to be part of looking across the whole word.
Jill - Makes sense. I guess I was afraid it would slow him down.
Katydid/Ca. - Let me back up. I don't necessarily stop the reading to prompt--but I use it as a TP and then praise it when it see them taking it on.
Mary/PA - Do DLL teachers get special training?
Jill - Yes. They have a year of training in RR first. then they train in DLL.
Katydid/Ca. - With Asian students it's harder, because you often don't hear them putting endings on, and many Asian lang. don't have equivalent endings.
connie - Jill, I think if the child is reading look for looked, it could also mean some pronunciation and I would only show him that on the ML work with the different endings, and how the ed sounds different.
lisak - Please share some good prompts for looking across the whole word
Mary/PA - I would think that the endings would be a visual thing, they need to look across the word. Many English only kids need to be taught to do that
Katydid/Ca. - We used to do it that way here--then they trained some TL in DLL and now they just get DLL here. Many have complained that the training isn't always the same.
Mary/PA - Does it look right in the middle? the end?
Mary/PA - I know nothing about DLL
connie - A few (3) days earlier he had written a word so large that it almost took a halp of page. When he wrote a word that was "normal" I flipped through the book to show him how much different it was in size, and praised him for tryint to write such a long sentence on one page.
Katydid/Ca. - lisak, sometimes I repeat what they said and say "that doesn't look right" or "that's part of it but there's more." "Can you say more" is another. and then building the word and having them break off the ending-say the parts- then put it together and say the word.
Mary/PA - connie, why do you think he writes so large?
Katydid/Ca. - Mary, DLL is supposed to be RR only in Spanish with Spanish texts. It has not been as successful here in Central Ca. and RR. The DLL trained teachers seem to have a harder time if they haven't had a year of RR first.
connie - I use the mask to show the word word in reading, and then I use another card to cover the word and slowly drag it across the word to show the child how to see it from left to right.
Mary/PA - Making and Breaking also makes kids aware of endings
tyylee - Near the end of the school year do you ever use the levels nineteen and twenty books?
Mary/PA - tyylee, not too much - if they are that far along, I Disc. them
Katydid/Ca. - Depends on the books tyylee. Would be nice if we could get most of our students there at disc.
Mary/PA - Oh, thanks Katy, I didn't know that - how does that help the child get into speaking and reading English?
connie - My child is left handed, and also has some fine motor problems, so this might be why he did such large letters.
tyylee - I just disc a child reading at level eighteen and wondered if I should have had her read through level twenty this late in the year.
Mary/PA - connie, I think we have twins - I too have one whose writing is large and out of control, he's a lefty as well. I have to constantly be on him to keep his writing under control
lisak - tyylee Is that the average of her class?
connie - during the second round, I try to get into letter boxes fairly soon, usually by the time the child is reading at a level 8.
tyylee - How much time do you spend prompting for neat small writing? I find that some children go so slow when they have to think about size and neatness that it is difficult to write more than one sentence in a session.
Katydid/Ca. - Mary, although we're not supposed to emphacize bilingual ed anymore, still some students are taught in their native lang. until they have acquired Eng. structure and vocabulary. The theory of lang. acquisition says it takes 2-6 years to acquire Eng. fluency. If they are literate in their native lang. that transfers to Eng. Unfortuantely, the practice has not always bourne this out because of the lack of training in many classrooms. We have a Ca. mess!
connie - I would like to know how teachers know that the child is accelerating?
tyylee - Connie, I like to take an informal running record on the new book and when the child is over 95% for a couple of days I try moving them up a level.
connie - I would like to know how teachers know that the child is accelerating?
connie - tyylee, I think that if the child is automatic with writing letters, and identifying them with the ML, then their writing becomes faster, more automatic.
didi(Aus) - do you try the child on a 'hard' text before going up a level
connie - tyylee, that's a good idea. I wanted to see if the child's rr. was at least 1:1 self-corrections. It seems that if they are at a high rate of self corrections, then they are monitoring.
Mary/PA - didi, I do start a new level with an easier book at the level and move up to the more difficult ones
Mary/PA - ususally that is
tyylee - Some of the 'hard' texts at one level are harder that the easy ones at the next level. I look at what the child is able to use independently.
tyylee - Didi, are you on the RR list serve? It is helpful also
Mary/PA - This is the address of the list archives http://archives.gsn.org/readrecov/
Mary/PA - Go to this address to sign on - http://gsn.org/lists/
didi(Aus) - What do you do to move children whose processing is slow
greedycat - Are you talking about slow processing in reading or writing?
tyylee - Fluency on familiar books is vital to build faster processing.
didi(Aus) - both slow to begin focussing on the print and to write
greedycat - One of the things that occurs to me re: writing and faster processing is automaticity with some words and letter formation/
didi(Aus) - like with slow to accelerate children
Mary/PA - If they are truly processing slowly, that's tough - I find that most kids just read slowly out of habit - I use books with a lot of dialog to give them the idea that reading should sound like real talking
greedycat - The child should be writing a large % of the sentence according to research I've read about teachers with higher outcomes.
tyylee - Sometimes it is necessary to use flash cards to build a base of words that child can use as 'islands of certainty' I sometimes send four or five words home each night.
greedycat - Regarding fluent reading....I find it helpful to share a book with a student by having the child read the dialogue for one of the characters while I read the dialogue for another.
greedycat - It's a nice way to model fluency.
Mary/PA - that's a good idea, greedy
didi(Aus) - modelling has begun to help my boy
greedycat - thanks
didi(Aus) - great ideas tylee and greedycat
greedycat - Another powerful way to prompt for fluency is on p. 55 (I think) about arranging the cutup sentence into phrases and having the student read it in phrases.
greedycat - Since that's the child's language to begin with, it seems to be a natural place to phrase.
didi(Aus) - yes i've been doing that in his CUS He has made better progress than I expected
tyylee - I have found that if the child just remembers to 'get his mouth ready' much of the sounding through words is unnecessary and processing is faster.
didi(Aus) - yes but they still have to check though don't they as they get to higher levels
tyylee - Yes, they do have to do some sounding and checking at the higher levels but I find that there is much more fluency of they always quickly start making the first couple of sounds of the next word.
didi(Aus) - agreed on that tyylee
