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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net.
Mary/PA - Tonight's topic is "Making and Breaking."
Mary/PA - Hi Tyylee
Mary/PA - Are you out of school now?
Tyylee - Hello Mary, Making and Breaking, the most misunderstood three minutes in the whole lesson. Good topic. Now that school is out I can think.
Mary/PA - 3 mins is so little time
Tyylee - Mary, are you out? We submitted our data on-line instead of bubbling, much easier.
Mary/PA - so hard to stay within the limits
Mary/PA - Yes, we are out now...Friday was our last day
Mary/PA - We are doing our records online as well
Mary/PA - it's so much better
Mary/PA - Making and Breaking....what are your concerns?
Tyylee - With my second round students I found M and Break harder to plan, there were fewer concepts they needed to know and it was so tempting to teach for specific sound items.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, teaching for specific sound items happens with the linking and analogies, doesn't it?
Mary/PA - Getting them to apply the concepts practiced in M & B is the challenge
Tyylee - Also, I find that if I haven't had time to get my letters out before time I lose a lot of valuable time getting things set up. With back to back classes all day sometimes the time to get the letters just isn't there. It is so easy to go over that three minute time frame.
lisa - i would have to agree with Tyylee on that one
Mary/PA - During reading and writing there is so much for the student to remember...so much to make work together...that's where the kids I work with seem to have the most problem. It's difficult for them to think of more than a couple of things at a time. Do you find this also?
Mary/PA - Tyylee, I agree
Mary/PA - Tyylee, do you teach RR all day?
Tyylee - I have heard conflicting information about linking or not linking M&B with the new book. Any thoughts from your area?
canuk - In our area it is recommended to link M&B with one of the currently read books
Tyylee - I have the usual four RR children and also four Guided reading groups. Planning time is only 15 minutes in the morning and 15 in the afternoon.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, the hope is that they relate previous M&B activities with the new book....with all books. But we don't teach today's M&B with the new book in mind
Mary/PA - Tyylee, do you continue letter work long after it feels as though you shouldn't?
Tyylee - If the child is having trouble keeping in mind and using all the strategies when reading the new book it makes sense to pick a book with the same concept we are teaching in M&B. For example, if we are teaching about endings chose a book with lots of endings, (but not necessarily the same ones used in M&B)
Mary/PA - How about you canuk? Do we stay with letter work long enough? Also, do you have any tricks to fitting in both letter work and M&B?
canuk - I think it depends on the child, I don't stick rigidly to the minutes, some kids need the letter work more, some making and breaking.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, that is so true, however, even though I have thousands of books...at least it seems that I do...so often it's hard to find just the right book. Do you have this problem as well?
Tyylee - This was my third year of RR and I have found each year that it is important to continue letter work until the child knows and is conformable with the letters and sounds. We should not start M&B until most letters are known!!
canuk - It depends on the kids learning style which means more first. It all comes down to the teacher tool bag, and experience with kids to base decisions
Mary/PA - Yes, known, but what about over learned?
canuk - Mary/PA, some kids move to the comfort zone with sounds AFTER they see how they work in words
Mary/PA - I keep hearing that we don't spend enough time on letters...we stop letter work too soon.
Tyylee - Mary, I have put post notes inside the covers of some of my books about especially useful concepts used in that book or high frequency words in that book, etc. Helps to jog my memory. I have even bought additional copies of some books that I really like to use.
Mary/PA - What about those kids who show evidence of knowing all the letters with the exception of the b-d confusion? Do you continue working on this and doing M&B?
canuk - Some kids have problem with specific letters to which they need to return time after time -but I don't think you delay M&B till they have absolute mastery
canuk - f and h with some kids too
Mary/PA - Tyylee, have you had a problem with the kids removing the post-its when they take the books home?
Tyylee - You can do a little letter work on the top of the writing page when the opportunity happens. b/d confusions seem to be one of my children's greatest problems in writing but if they are using meaning along with the sounds they usually get it during reading.
Mary/PA - What else can we say about Making and Breaking?
canuk - Mary/PA if you use reusable labels you can take them off when they go home, then pop them right back when they come back
canuk - If the class has a balanced literacy program going, they are also getting M&B with the rest of the class
Tyylee - I usually take the post it notes out of the books before they take them home. When there is room on the inside cover I usually just write the information there. An alternative is a piece of the white tape with the information written on it.
canuk - Also, if the class has a guided reading program going, the classroom teacher may want to use M&B with small groups. You could team to suggest specific target words
Tyylee - In CC we sent some time this year looking at running records to help plan the next day's M&B. I sometime change my plans based on what the child just did on their RR book and work on a concept they were having trouble with that day.
canuk - Tyylee, that seems to be an essential ingredient of RR - the ability to tailor the lesson to the kids needs
Mary/PA - Tyylee, that makes sense to me. Doing so seems to be more meaningful at a time like that/
Tyylee - If we are teaching concepts there are many different words we can use for the same concept so maybe the team could just decide on a basic concept to concentrate on that day/week in their groups.
Mary/PA - You have lots of good ideas, Tyylee. Our district is just getting started in the balanced approach. We had our first all day inservice concerning the 4 Blocks today.
Mary/PA - Having some trouble Doug?
canuk - Mary/PA 4 Blocks is not the only path to a balanced program, but it is a good guideline
Mary/PA - I have high hopes...if the teachers start to teach this way, the kids should start to make better progress.
Mary/PA - canuk, I know, but the regular teachers need something to go by. They need to have a framework to work from
canuk - Sharon Taberski's book, On Solid Ground is also an excellent reference
Tyylee - Are you planning to use 4 Blocks in your Kindergarten class. How will you find the time to do it all? I am unfamiliar with the 4 block plan for Kind. maybe it is different. We use many of the ideas and concepts of 4 block but not the whole program. My teachers really like the spelling component.
Mary/PA - Right now they are still doing the workbook/worksheet approach
Mary/PA - teaching everything in isolation
canuk - There is a program called Building Blocks that is more appropriate for Kinder.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, in Kindergarten it's different. the kinder framework is called Building Blocks and it's quite a bit different than the 4 Blocks
Doug* - canuk- there is even a building blocks chatboard here at teachers.net
Mary/PA - It looks like I'll be teaching RR all day next year.
canuk - Yes, there are columns for 4 Blocks too, Mary, you might want to investigate - even print off some of the articles, very practical
Tyylee - Teaching guided reading using the Fountas and Pinnel methods have really helped our children. They use many of the RR methods and language and since the classroom teachers and Title teachers are all teaching groups at the same time all the children get the language and strategies. It reinforces things for the RR children, both former and present.
Mary/PA - It should be interesting
Doug* - mary- at the same school?
Tyylee - Mary, I don't envy you all the paperwork!!!!!!
Doug* - mary 8 kids?
Mary/PA - canuk, I know about the articles, I edit all of them and put them on the site
Mary/PA - Doug, yes and yes...at least that's the plan so far
Doug* - mary- that is a real challenge
Mary/PA - Tyylee, we'll see...there's a lot of paper work for Kindergarten as well. At least now the paper work will all be the same
Tyylee - Doug, what do you do the other half of your day?
Doug* - Anybody reading change over time by m clay?
Mary/PA - Doug I don't know...I'll have to try it to see
Doug* - tyylee- I try to teach Kindergarten
Tyylee - We are suppose to read it next year in CC. Is it helpful?
Doug* - mary- did you get my e-mail the other day regarding special ed and rr?
Mary/PA - Doug, through the ring?
Doug* - tyylee- its controversial and I love controversy...rather I love different paths to our own common outcomes
Doug* - mary yes
canuk - Does Clay express any different ideas from her previous ones in that book Doug?
Mary/PA - I'll have to look again, Doug. I get so many, I don't remember where I read what
Doug* - canuk- yes...she goes on to say how we overuse onset/rime teaching to get quick changes
canuk - interesting, anything else?
Mary/PA - Doug, has the book caused you to think about doing something different in your lessons?
Doug* - mary- I just wanted to say that rr is not supposed to serve kids already getting services....last I heard from ohio state
Tyylee - But Doug, with RR we are all suppose to be on the same basic path using Marie's guidebook even though each student's path is a little different. What kind of controversy do you mean?
Doug* - overuse I mean
Mary/PA - Doug, yes, now a remember. But I guess different places do things differently
Mary/PA - Our need is too high to double serve kids.
Mary/PA - But I guess some schools can afford it
canuk - What else does Clay say that's different from before?
Mary/PA - Doug, does she say anything about letter work? Does she mention Phonemic Awareness?
Tyylee - Doug, we are told not to serve children already identified as special ed and to drop any child who gets that identification during our services. That is "the word" from Ohio as we understand it.
Doug* - the overuse of onset/rime teaching tends to give kids the message that our language is predictable. she gives many other reasons but that is the only one I remember
Mary/PA - Where does Phonemic Awareness fit in our lessons? Have you ever been asked this question? How do you answer?
Doug* - she uses studies to clarify what it means to be self-extending but at the end of 2 chapters you find more questions than answers...she goes on to admit that she has a lot of questions
canuk - Do any of your special ed teachers use the framework with identified kids
Tyylee - Do your children often use the onset/rhyme to help them get to new words when reading? I have had a few that do but not every child uses that strategy. It is just one of many strategies you have to teach the child to consider.
Doug* - i believe that the use of elkonin boxes teaches phonemic awareness...writing in general teaches phonics
Mary/PA - canuk, none of our Resource Teachers have been trained
Mary/PA - They've picked up bits here and there and will say they are using it, but they really aren't
Doug* - canuk- our special ed teacher uses running records, shared reading, guided reading, read aloud, interactive writing, independent reading and writing...(some folks call this balanced reading)
Tyylee - We have some Special Ed teachers who are RR trained and teach RR part of their day. I am sure they use the strategies for the identified children. Also our Special Ed teachers teach guided reading with us as their children are included in the regular groups so the children get the strategies there too.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, that sounds like a great set-up! Your school should be proud. You must have some good leadership.
Doug* - interestingly...clay shows repeatedly that keeping things easy will lead to good processing.....
Doug* - she says in 2 parts with kids not doing reading work a new prompt: work it out
Mary/PA - Before our time is up...our next meeting is June 25...6 months before Christmas
canuk - I agree with that Doug - It helps to quote that when parents are trying to push too hard thinking that will speed things up
Tyylee - Their is a fine line between keeping things easy and teaching new concepts, vocab, etc. You can hold a child's progress back if you never offer him/her a challenge. I think the key is not too much of a challenge, just the opportunity to practice what they already know and try a little something new.
Mary/PA - work it out - sounds like a good prompt. Does she give any suggestions for teaching what that means?
canuk - Also "what can you try?"
Doug* - she also shows a new way to graph writing progress over time....you write their sentence highlight which words were used for boxes and which letters within words were written by you and by them.....it sounds hard but it makes sense when you see it
Tyylee - How about "try something else"
Mary/PA - I think there is a confusion about what keeping it easy means. I think that we have to keep it easy to learn, but not keep the reading and writing too easy.
canuk - Isn't the philosophy one new thing at a time - hence the very small time allotment?
Mary/PA - Keeping it easy with the right amount of support
Mary/PA - And the right kind of support
Doug* - specifically keeping things easy means to her an instructional or independent level and not many new concepts with the new book but always at the cutting edge showing new learning...her book graph example showed a child doing a level a week or even better...she says to accelerate it must be faster than the rate happening in the classroom
canuk - Mary - that fine line is another reason why the recommendation is for the experienced teacher to do RR
Mary/PA - It sounds like we should all get the book and plan on discussing it soon
Doug* - if you want a self-correction ratio to be 1;1 or 1;2 it must be easy
Doug* - http://www.heinemann.com ...change over time
Mary/PA - canuk, I agree. I wonder why so many places are training brand new teachers. Sure seems like too much to expect from a new teacher
canuk - maybe the book would be a good topic for next meeting, Mary
Mary/PA - Doug will the book get to us in time if we all order it tomorrow?
Doug* - mary- politically new teachers tend not to question status quo and of course you can pay them less
Mary/PA - How long does it take to receive the book?
Doug* - promise not to laugh? My wife took mine because I was reading it everywhere and so I reordered it ...it takes a week
Mary/PA - Thanks
Mary/PA - Should we aim for discussing it on the 25th? Is that enough time?
Mary/PA - I didn't laugh
Mary/PA - How will you hide the new one from her?
Doug* - heinemann gives teachers a 10% discount if ordered by internet
Mary/PA - Do you have to prove that you are a teacher?
Doug* - i'll keep it by the jacuzzi
Tyylee - I would love to read the conversation but won't have time to read it before then, I have company coming next week.
Mary/PA - Well, we'll give it a try
Tyylee - Good night all.
Doug* - my kid is yelling about needing to use the puter bye friends...take care
Mary/PA - Thanks all for coming
Mary/PA - I always learn something new from you folks
