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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net.
Mary/PA - Tonight's topic is "Change over Time in Children's Literacy Development" by Marie M. Clay. Chapter One, "Extra Power For Writing In The Early Literacy Interventions."
Mary/PA - Did either of you have a chance to get the book?
sukiRR - Hi I did not get a copy of the book i am just here to listen..soak up the knowledge
canuk - I have not yet got a copy - on order
Mary/PA - It's a big book and I have had it for about a week now, but have not had much reading time
Mary/PA - I thought we could discuss the first chapter
Mary/PA - It's about writing
canuk - Someone last time felt that it is contraversial is that your feeling?
Mary/PA - canuk, I haven't seen anything controversial, but I have seen a few things cleared up for me
sukiRR - Like what Mary?
Mary/PA - There's one great quote that I got a kick out of - When talking about "Pupils' attempts to write their own names..." She says, "The few who have not mastered their names after a full year at school are long overdue for some CLOSE ENCOUNTERS WITH A GOOD TEACHER." I love that!
Mary/PA - "Change over Time in Children's Literacy Development" by Marie M. Clay. Chapter One, "Extra Power For Writing In The Early Literacy Interventions."
sukiRR - Good one !
sukiRR - Last summer I taught summer school...4 weeks I had the lowest of the low after first graders
sukiRR - I focussed on writing and boy did I get a shift
sukiRR - I used a modified version of a phonographix technique..easier than sound boxes in a group.
Mary/PA - suki, that's the point ...one of them... that Marie is making here...writing is so very important in the first two years...it should take the main stage
sukiRR - I really focussed on hearing and recording sounds
canuk - can you give details Suki
sukiRR - Thanx!!
sukiRR - I really focussed on hearing and recording sounds
Mary/PA - I get the feeling she's telling us that in the beginning of the dhild's program we need to be spending more than the usual 10 minutes writing
Mary/PA - She talks about "two journeys" that I don't understand, maybe you folks can help me here
canuk - I think, too that's where the classroom teacher comes in as well. so the child is writing constantly for various purposes
Sarah - How can anyone justify a pitiful 10 min of writting? You mean in RR only 10 min? I teach 1st & get in a minim of 45min
Mary/PA - Sarah, we only have 30 min for our whole lesson and there are many things that we have to cover in that time. 10 min is the amount of time we usually spend on writing
sukiRR - I often go over
sukiRR - Then I try to make it up in the new book
Rob - Hi! I'm a new teacher. I am currently applying for a Reading Recovery position at a school district near me. Are there any tips you could give me for the interview process?
Sarah - I understand. We don't have RR at our school.
Mary/PA - Here's what I don't understand - Page 20 - "The young writer must attend to familiar letter features, until each letter can be rapidly distinguished from similar letters. Every letter takes two journeys. The first journey is: from being new, to only just known, to working to get a solution, to easily produced but easily thrown, to a well-known old response in most contexts, and later, known in any variant form. The second journey is: moving from very slow, to very fast production or very fast recognition measured in thousandths of a second (or milliseconds)."
sukiRR - then sometimesI go really over and then there goes my planning
Mary/PA - What does she mean "easily thrown"?
sukiRR - One journey from unknown to known ..the other from laboured to fluent
canuk - I think it means you can reproduce the shape, etc but it does not make solid, long term memory attached to meaning
sukiRR - Easily thrown ? maybe easily thrown away or lost?
Tyylee - Perhaps she means easily confused. I sometimes have children who can produce a letter but don't really know what it is nor what sound it makes.
sukiRR - yes Canuk
canuk - It seems there is the technical journey and the lexical one
Mary/PA - OK, thrown means confused or not really known?
Sarah - I agree with Tyylee. It is sometimes rote writting. Copying but nor REALLY knowing what the letters means or how it is used.
sukiRR - Maybe there is someone here from NZ who speaks the lingo?
Mary/PA - She does talk quite a bit about how we need to NOT spend too much time on word families
Mary/PA - She says that doing so will limit the child
Mary/PA - and also confuse him/her
sukiRR - Word families do not ususlly transfer to useful stategies on text or in writing.
Tyylee - This refers back to a discussion we had the last time about the need to spend enought time to ensure that the letters are solidly learned, perhaps overlearned before starting M and B.
sukiRR - They can often rattle them off, do well in M&B but when it comes to getting at an unknown through anology to a known ..it flops sometimes
Sarah - Interesting, the fact family stuff. That's what many use, but it isn't always useful for transfering to writting.
Mary/PA - She says students need to know how to write many different words so that they have more to draw upon when they are trying to write a new word
Rob - Hello! I am currently interviewing for a Reading Recovery position. I was wandering if there were any tips you could give me for the interview process.
sukiRR - yes Mary..more understandng of how our crazy language works in writing.
canuk - word families, like most strategies have avaluable place but can be overdone
sukiRR - Rob,go to the RR web site and come to the interview with an understanding of the program.
Mary/PA - Rob, what is your background in early leteracy...how much experience do you have and how much knowledge do you have about how children learn to read and write?
Tyylee - When using analogies such as word families it is important to ask the child if they can think of a word that has a part in it like that word and then show them how to transfer that knowledge to the new words. Word families are only one part of that process but they do need to understand something about how they work.
Sarah - In writing, words that make connections for the children are ones they will use. The more experiences they have to draw from the more words they will use & want to use
Gracie - For reading recovery? Go to the interview fully prepared to discuss what you know about reading recovery. Hi everyone
sukiRR - yes tylee..so that they know WHY these words are in the same family.
Tyylee - Mary, does she say anything about how to teach these high frequency words rapidly?
Rob - I am not currently certified in Reading Recovery, but I am going for my Masters in Reading. I don't really have a lot of experience in early literacy.
meg - I have never been to a meeting, and didn't know that you had specific topics to discuss--neat!
Rob - Thanks for the info. on the web site. I will check it out.
Mary/PA - Not in this chapter - I think she has that covered in the GB and Becoming Literate
sukiRR - Rob you need to know a lot about how young readers and writers develop...so that you can become a good observer of reading and writing behaviors.
canuk - Small kids love big words when they know what they mean
sukiRR - Meg are you RR?
meg - yes-just got finished with training year
Mary/PA - When you do the CUS, do you ever cut endings or onset and rime or a chunk of some sort?
Rob - My only real experience with how children develop is by watching my own two children develop.
sukiRR - congragulations meg!!
meg - thanks--quite a year, as you know
sukiRR - I always do ..when it appears it will have power or echo in my lesson
Tyylee - So, is this book more about theory? Does it clarify things more or bring up new ideas and thoughts?
Mary/PA - Marie says that we should use breaks below the word level only RARELY
canuk - I don't do it there, but do in M&B
meg - what does CUS stand for Mary?
Rob - So, the Reading Recovery program itself is pretty tough???
Mary/PA - canuk, then you have been trained correctly
sukiRR - i find it gets a shift in reading...focuses them on what they have been neglecting
sukiRR - cut up sentence
meg - what sort of teaching experience do you have, ROB?
canuk - It has a very structured framework
meg - oh--LOL
Mary/PA - We've been encouraged to do the below word level cutting, but I guess that was another confusion
Tyylee - Mary, that is interesting. My second round children had used CUS sentences in literacy groups all year and found them too easy unless I cut them into smaller parts. I find the smaller parts reinforce what we have done in M and B and on the practice part of the page.
Rob - I just graduated with an ELED degree in December 2000. I've been subbing since then and going back to school for my Masters in Reading.
sukiRR - one teacher did it BTG and our leader praised her
sukiRR - me too Tylee
sukiRR - I would not do this early on or first round when child does not understand word boundries
Rob - Do you feel it is beneficial to having a Masters in Reading along with the Reading Recovery???
meg - it would be hard to do both at the same time, Rob
Mary/PA - She says that the CUS is not about finding letters or sequencing them, it's about rapid word recognition and sequencing the words.
sukiRR - Back to the GB
sukiRR - I go
Tyylee - I was under the misusderstanding that the CUS was also about using the sounds you hear and matching them with the parts you see to reconstruct certain selected words. What else does she have to say on that subject.
meg - Does anyone know a RR teacher that has National Board Certification???
sukiRR - Someday you'll have to help me Mary with my understanding of Roaming... I had TL come in to observe a colleague in the building and my "understanding" is now all gone.
Maureen - We just discussed that at CC last week. A very interesting chapter.
Mary/PA - Back to the two journeys....
sukiRR - So much to learn...sigh..
Mary/PA - OH, can you share some of what you discussed?
Mary/PA - I don't meg, if you find one, let me know, I'd like to know how the two learning processes compare
Maureen - Tylee, Clay says that is part of the task on the CUS. Matching what they say as they search and keeping pace as they monitor.
Mary/PA - suki, Roaming takes some getting used to for sure
sukiRR - Can we discuss it once before next year starts?
Maureen - We talked about constructing stories and about parsing. p27/28 in Change over time
sukiRR - It would really help me..
canuk - many teachers here use roaming to make all about me pattern books as the kids' first familiar books
Mary/PA - Maureen, but she says that we should not be cutting words below word level...only do this rarely.. for a special purpose
canuk - How does she use parsing?
Maureen - About how composing needs to be taught and about shaping the story.
Tyylee - When she says rarely do you think she means only one word per sentence cut below word level or rarely at all?
sukiRR - Can we do this adequately in 10 minutes?
canuk - Tyylee, rarely at all
Mary/PA - She says rarely - "teachers need to resist the temptation"
Maureen - I think because some teachers go to below word level too readily, Mary. Only do it if you have a specific and responsive purpose in mind.
sukiRR - such as...?
Tyylee - What about that child, especially second round, who can quickly put a sentence back together when cut just into words but still needs to look further into words and see their parts.
Mary/PA - She says the child's attention should be on assembling rather that breaking
canuk - Suki, I think what Clay is saying that 10 mins is too short for writing - but I think this is also where balanced programming at the school level is so necessary
sukiRR - So true Canuk
Mary/PA - Tyylee, I guess that's what M & B is for, I don't know, I haven't read the whole book yet
canuk - Tyylee, do you play silly sentences, taking it in turns to mix up, read the nonsense, then reassemble?
Maureen - Canuk, she links it to composing and keeping a whole message in the head. To get it down in writing, the kid reads in order to 'gather up'. In th CUS the kid reconstructs the story from the word level.
Mary/PA - Maybe we are tryin to do to much in each of the lesson parts and that's why we feel so pushed for time...I don't know
meg - our school is starting 4 block next year. I hope that the time spent on writing increases. We have also been talking to the K teacher about the importance of interactive writing...and write write write everyday. It is so obvious which teachers spend the time.
meg - K teachers...
Maureen - I think that Clay is acknowledging that we only have a short time for writing, so we have to ensure that it is powerful.
canuk - If CUS is too simple Tyylee, cut up more than one, so that punctuation is more of an issue
sukiRR - We are using a new reading program in summer school..Benchmarks non fiction thematic..calls itself 4blocks..but the guided reading looks more like F&Pinnel.
Tyylee - does Mari want us to write longer more complicated stories and then use these more longer more complex stories for CUS. I can see where that would offer more of a challange for the children.
sukiRR - I'll let you know how it works out.
Mary/PA - She (Marie) didn't say this, but I got the feeling that maybe we shouldn't be making books for the child before the lesson....we should be making the books with the child..with us doing everything first as an example of how it's done and then gradually getting the child to do as much as he can....thoughts?
sukiRR - in early lessons Mary?
Mary/PA - Tyylee, yes, I think that is the goal
Maureen - I do a lot of book making with the child, starting in RATK. It's a poweful way to use what is known.
Mary/PA - suki, I think in RAK and early lessons if we still don't have ready made texts the child can read, but that's rare
sukiRR - Thanx Mary.
meg - Tyylee--I have seen data about the complexity of stories (structure and otherwise) directly influencing the amount of acceleration.
Mary/PA - Maureen, do you ever make books for the child when he/she is not there to watch the process?
Maureen - Never, Mary.
Mary/PA - Great!!!
Mary/PA - I've never felt that was a good thing to do!!!
Mary/PA - You've mad my day
sukiRR - I only make books with child..have them put in what they can..I use stickers etc.
Maureen - And the child contributes whatever s/he can.
Maureen - Stickers for illustration, Suki?
sukiRR - yes..I see a mouse...cat etc
Maureen - So nice when that happens, Mary!
Maureen - Yes, I do that too, Suki.
Mary/PA - I've missed you Maureen, I'm so happy you could come today
Maureen - I like to make a least a book a day in RATK.
Mary/PA - On page 25 she has a nice list of questions that we should be asking ourselves
Maureen - Thanks, Mary. It's hard for me to get here with time zones etc. Always fun to visit.
Tyylee - List some of the question for us. I don't have a copy yet.
canuk - I think the work done in writing is the most powerful learning for the ESL kids in regular class
Mary/PA - Marie says - "Teachers should ask themselves: Is my teaching facilitating these changes? Do I make it easy for my students to learn more for themselves about how words work? Do I give my students many opportunities to initiate writing a word? Do I hold back and encourage initiation or do I butt in protectively? What encourages the student to speed up the writing of the word? Is this child's repertoire of words expanding, giving the learner more tools to work with? How can I tell which words have settled into the child's repertoire? Do my lessons facilitate or obstruct any of that learning?
Maureen - Yes, those are good questions.
canuk - Great questions for any teacher
Maureen - I really find that taping lessons is a valuable tool for T reflection.
sukiRR - I agree canuk
canuk - video or audio
Mary/PA - Maureen, I agree, I'm hoping to have enough time to do more of that this year
Mary/PA - Maureen I'll be teaching RR all day
Maureen - I use audio, canuk. But video would show non-verbal behaviours too.
sukiRR - 8 slots right mary
Maureen - Are you looking fwd to that Mary? I love all day RR!
canuk - Video taping kids really showed up some interesting behaviours for me
sukiRR - You both are blessed
Mary/PA - Video is best if you can do it, but audio is better than nothing - sometimes on audio I wonder "What happened there?"
Mary/PA - suki, yes
canuk - What have you all noticed about tracking behaviours?
Mary/PA - Unless I'm given some kind of "duty" I'll have a lot more time than I have had
Maureen - And what about your own behaviours, Canuk? Sometimes you surprise yourself!
canuk - It seemed to me that right handed kids who tracked with their left hands had most difficulty. I agree Maureen
sukiRR - I often wished for camera with one girl I had..from the side she seemed to squeeze her eyes shut as she problem solved a word using visual information.It would have been nice to have a camera or a mirror.
Mary/PA - canuk, I've noticed that for years...even before RR
Tyylee - Must run. See you next time.
canuk - Mary - is there any research on that?
Mary/PA - Also, kids who don't use both hands during M & B and CUS and any time when two hands are better than one
canuk - suki - we had to make videos as part of our training
Maureen - I have a child at the moment who swaps the pen from hand to hand when writing. I'm watching closely to see if a dominant handedness emerges.
sukiRR - Could be neurological....some difficulty deciding handedness..hard wiring the brain.
sukiRR - Oh god they say the camera adds 10 ponds I'd die
Mary/PA - canuk, I don't know, it's just what I have noticed and that's why I encourage the child to use his dominant hand.
Mary/PA - Works a lot better
meg - Maureen--you are working with kids now? Year round?
canuk - suki - then everyone in the group got to critique!
Maureen - Lots of kids take a while for handedness to settle. My own son didn't sort it till he was 9. Now does everything right handed and footed, but writes lefthanded.
Mary/PA - suki, aim it just right and you won't notice
sukiRR - Many times kids with "soft nuerological damage will not cross midline,switch hands etc.
canuk - Maureen, any difficulties with literacy?
meg - I had to do several videos during training...we even had questions to think about for analysis...
sukiRR - I play baseball and field hockey lefty..and tie my shoes lefty but am right handed
canuk - suki what is classed as soft?
Mary/PA - suki, yes and they are the ones who are usually the hardest to teach
canuk - meg - us too
Maureen - None at all, Canuk. He was way above grade level all the way through school.
sukiRR - Not readily noticeable..probably birth insult, or illness in infancy
Maureen - I am in New Zealand, Meg. Just heading into Winter break.
sukiRR - Soft neurological damage is linked to LD ADD
Mary/PA - canuk, maybe the hand usage is an indication of something else
sukiRR - emotional and behavioral disorders
Mary/PA - I don't know, but I do know that the ones that I have had are the ones who take longer to accelerate
canuk - Does a righty who tracks left take more note of visual vs. phonic cues?
sukiRR - They diagnose or pin point damage to brain based on area of sisability. My nephew has menegitis as a newborn..He has a specific writing disability
Mary/PA - canuk, I haven't noticed, but I will look for that from now on
sukiRR - Lesions in the brain were caused by illness and now he has difficulty in writing
sukiRR - 16 years old
canuk - Just writing?
Maureen - I have not noticed, Canuk. The kid that switches hands is accelerating rapidly.
sukiRR - well he is ADD but writing is the main one.
sukiRR - he can read great, has a wonderful vocab (oral) and can draw comics
sukiRR - but writing is hard for him..he does better with keyboarding.
sukiRR - he is very bright.
canuk - That often ties in with ADD anyway
Maureen - He finger points with the index finger of his left hand ... when allowed!
sukiRR - What week Maureen?
canuk - Maureen, which is his strongest cue base?
Maureen - Try Parsons and Freed, Right Brained Children in a Left Brained World.
Maureen - Visual, Canuk. But he is integrating info well now. Level 0 to Level 10 in 7 weeks
sukiRR - How does he sound maureen? Is he phrased?
Mary/PA - Maureen, when you say 7 weeks, does that include RAK?
Maureen - Yes, oral language was a strength he brought with him and I have used it as a powerful building block.
sukiRR - Sounds like he'll dofine
Maureen - Yes, it does, Mary ... always include RATK.
Mary/PA - Thanks
sukiRR - left hand or not
Maureen - Yes, I'm sure he will be fine. So nice to get kids like that from time to time
sukiRR - Mary can we discus children with structural language difficulties sometime?
Maureen - This is the one who keeps switching hands, even in the middle of a sentence, Suki.
Mary/PA - suki, sure
sukiRR - I find that kids who do not control standard structure have such a hard time
sukiRR - and require cautious programming
sukiRR - Thanx Mary
meg - suki-my lowest child this past year had speech/language problems. I had absolutely NO idea how serious this was to the reading process when I was in the classroom!
sukiRR - Canuk where do you teach au canada/
Mary/PA - Maureen, switching hands is different from using one hand for reading and the other hand for writing, don't you think? Or the kids who can't seem to use both hands?
sukiRR - Meg I was speech assistant for 5 years..It can be devestating
sukiRR - They cannot monitor effectively for stucture and meaning needs to be built up or it will break down from the start.
Maureen - Yes, I think so, Mary. I agree about getting the child to use both hands for the tasks like ML work and CUS. It does seem to be helpful.
sukiRR - I am not so much referring to speech problems..artic etc..those are a minor nuisance.Its language problems that will stop a student from progressing.
Mary/PA - suki, for me the language weak students are always the ones that I am able to help the least it seems. I don't think I've ever been able to discontinue one....I'm not talking about articulation....language
canuk - even specch problems can interfere
meg - he could not cross-check because the way he said the word did not match...as he checked the picture
sukiRR - Mary I had one this year second round...I refused to give up on her but her program was short 12 weeks
canuk - I have found the kids writing is really a powerful way to help those with language difficulties
sukiRR - She could not hold a sentence in her head and used incorrect structure..she had second language issues too was a spanish speaker..but her spanish was poor too.
canuk - That's often the way suki - illiterate in two languages
meg - ditti suki, my little boy had both languages spoken poorly at home
sukiRR - I had to build the meaning for her in book intro..give her the whole story in a nutshell and plant language stucture in the inro too.
Maureen - If the first language is poor we have a very hard job.
Mary/PA - also the child with a very limited oral language vocabulary....they are hard to teach...they just don't have many words in their heads and have a real hard time learning new ones
sukiRR - A true language disorder crosses language boundries
canuk - That's where doing the picture walk is important
sukiRR - Mary when making her ABC book I had only 1 or 2 pictures per letter she could choose from as she had NO naming vocab
sukiRR - A picture talk is more like it canuk lol
Maureen - Mary, learning how to learn is a very important thing that we teach children how to do in RR.
canuk - sometimes an ESL family stops its heritage languga in favor of speaking english at home, but not an enriched version. I don't think that helps as they have no rich language base then
Mary/PA - suki, I wonder why she wasn't one of the lowest for first round
sukiRR - meg where do you teach?
sukiRR - She was new to building..somehow got skipped
Maureen - I have to go now. Thanks for the interesting discussion.
canuk - 'bye Mureen
Mary/PA - Thanks for coming Maureen
Mary/PA - I hope I see you again soon
Maureen - Bye all.
meg - Johnson City, Tennessee...2nd teacher in the area
sukiRR - I am in western Mass
sukiRR - I am a bilingual SPED teacher... I am supposed to be bridged to DLL but we cant find a TL in the area
sukiRR - I would love to do 2 English and 2 spsnish kids
meg - where were you trained?
sukiRR - In springfield, the district where I teach
sukiRR - I was hired to do both but the trainer refusedto do any more teachers out "west"
Mary/PA - This past year I had a student who was new to the country. He was adopted at age 7 from Romania. His English developed very quickly! He can speak very well now. But I've had kids who have lived here all their lives who I wasn't able to help learn to speak English as well...
sukiRR - She was from Boston.
canuk - Are there enough materials for Hispanic kids in RR?
meg - I had to drive to Knoxville every week (2 hours) for training...and now for CC
sukiRR - Mary its easier when kids come into US with one well developed language
sukiRR - Yes
canuk - They are going to start doing RR for the kids in French immersion schools here
sukiRR - Dominie,carousel, wright gruop, Mondo and some Rigby
sukiRR - I translate PM's and tape them for litracy groups
sukiRR - seedlings too
Mary/PA - Well, I have to go now. Thank you all for coming tonight. See you all next time.
sukiRR - Bye Mary Its been fun
canuk - Thanks for a great discussion everyone
meg - I'll be looking for next meeting...this was interesting!
