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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight's topic is Writing.
tyylee - I am on the 12th lesson with a couple of children and am still spending lots of time on letter ID and have not started training for pushing sounds.
tyylee - Do you think I should start it anyway even though there are still several letters that are unknown or confused?
Mary/PA - tyylee, do you use the "Scale of Knowing"?
Doug - Tyylee_ I have that same problem.
tyylee - I am not sure what you are referring to?
Mary/PA - The Scale Of Knowing(1) NewDoug - Tyylee- I have a kid that does not have LI firm and we are getting on in weeks....she still needs some known words
(2) Seen Before
(3) Worked With
(4) Almost Under Control
(5) Controlled With Lapses
(6) Controlled and Correct
(7) Controlled With Almost No Attention
Mary/PA - For Letters - Ways Of Working With What Child Knows(1) New - Select letters that can be linked to known based on configuration/starting pointMary/PA - What you do is based upon what the child knows and where he is on the scale
(2) Seen Before - Teacher models verbal directions for form - Teacher models cognitive structuring: comparison of similarities - Teacher identifies letter each time - Teacher models use of letter in reading and writing text
(3) Worked With - Teacher supplies pool of letters and letter names for sorts - Child uses verbal direction for form and ID in writing and letter work with prompting - Child will identify sound/symbol relationship in New and Important Words
(4) Almost Controlled - Teacher supplies pool of letters - Child supplies letter name - Child uses verbal directions for letter form - Child uses sound/symbol relationship in both reading and writing
(5) Controlled with Lapses - Teacher supplies pool of letters - Child supplies letter name in quick sort - Child uses verbal direction for letter form - Child uses in text with a prompt - Child monitors form, function and identification
(6) Controlled and Correct - Same as Controlled with Lapses: without a prompt
(7) Controlled with No Attention - Child uses visual information on the run without verbal directions/prompts(Draft/schaaf/2000)
Pam - Dear Mary Have you tried this ways of knowing in your RR lessons? How did it wwork?
tyylee - Mary, that is good, did it come from the guidebook? If so what page?
Mary/PA - tyylee, it's based upon the GB page 55, our new TL shared this with us at our last CC
tyylee - But I am still wondering at what point I should spend some time on training in pushing sounds even when all letters are not firmly known.
Mary/PA - You can start it during writing if the child is able to say words slowly - you can teach the procedure
Mary/PA - How many are known? - letters?
Pam - I think that you need to train right away for HSiW even if letters are well known because the kids need to know how to get to words and this helps them, of course take into consideration teaching the tasks first.
tyylee - Most of the letters are known sometimes but it varies from day to day. Sometimes they can form the letters from the sounds but not name the letters and sometimes they say the letter name but can't make it. things just aren't firm yet.
Mary/PA - Pam, I've just started, it makes sense to follow this. Too often I've been asking a child to do something he is not yet ready to do - with this scale, I'm better able the make the tasks more at the child's control level and he in turn gets more from the activity and actually is able to make better progress
Pam - I'm haveing difficulty getting this under control, but agree that it makes sense, I just have to get systemtic way of recording and doing it..
panda - meeting
Mary/PA - tyylee, I would at least start teaching the task, and support him through the pushing while following the scale during word or letter work (M&B) time in the lesson
Pam - tyylee, I agree with mary
Mary/PA - Would you like to see the things to do on the Scale of Knowing for Words?
tyylee - Yes
Pam - I have found writing to be better this year as I am pushing the children more to say their own words slowly and have gotten them to listen in pvc two elbows connected to have a hearing tube . This has helped even those that have some difficulty hsiw.
Mary/PA - Here are the things to do with words - Ways Of Working With What Child Knows - Words(1) New - Teacher constructs word and tells word (Word Study, GB pg. 55)Pam - I think that we have to teach them how-get letters and known words fluent. Teach them to say words slowly and link form the known example if you know no then you can change it to go
(2) Seen Before - Teacher supplies letters and word Child constructs word and checks (Word Study, GB pg. 55)
(3) Worked With - Teacher supplies letters and prompts to "make a word you know" - Child constructs word, reads word while checking
(4) Almost Under Control - Teacher supplies pool of letters and words to construct - Child constructs words, reads word while checking - Child takes word to fluency in writing
(5) Controlled With Lapses - Teacher supplies pool and prompts to "make a word you know" - Child constructs word, reads word while checking - Child takes word to fluency in writing
(6) Controlled and Correct - Teacher supplies word - Child writes word, reads while checking (Writing)
(7) Controlled With Almost No Attention - Fluent Writing Review
Sadie - I've always only said.... unknown... partial known or known.... I like the scale better
Pam - then they will not hate the task so much. Writing about topics that excite them is always great. One of mine has started to write about Pokemon characters. You can still get good sentences with things for them to learn.
Mary/PA - Pam, yes, but when you are first starting this with a child, be sure to show them exactly what you mean by "If you know" and "You can make"
Pam - You are right--they have to understand how that works.
Mary/PA - Pam, I do think that we often assume that a child understands what we mean - We have to not assume anything and be sure to show and explain to them exactly what we mean
Mary/PA - We also have to be sure that they understand what we want to see them do - often kids do what we ask because they are being obedient, but they don't really understand why they are doing what we have asked them to do
tyylee - I am finding writing going better for both myself and the child when I do the difficult part in the early lessons and allow the child to do the high frequency words and words that are easy to hear sounds in. For the longer words I have them do the beginning and ending sounds and I do the rest. Of course as lessons progress I will be showing them how to get to the longer words but for now they don't get as discouraged and are more willing to try and also to make the stories longer.
Mary/PA - tyylee, during writing, do you use the practice page for fluent letter formation? While doing so you you require the child to say the words that tell where he is starting and which way he is going?
Mary/PA - tyylee, that seems right to me - first see if they can hear the two sound words and push them, then move on to three ... etc
tyylee - Yes, when needed we practice letter formation on the practice page and often on a dry erase board, using a mag. or a sponge letter for a model when necessary.
tyylee - My children don't have many problems with letter formating, just knowing which letters to form!
Mary/PA - I find that if you do have the child verbalize what he is doing, it helps to reinforce the formation
Mary/PA - Gives him a more uniform starting point and procedure to follow, so that he is not making the letter different every time, taking attention away from thinking of what he is hearing in the words.
tyylee - Mary, when teaching letters to the Kindergarten students do you have them verbalize the letter formation? I have just started with a Kind. Title 1 group and am planning to use that strategy with them.
Mary/PA - tyylee, yes I do, but I give them the words to say - I do this with the entire large group, so I can't be too individual about it, but they do learn to say the words of direction and make the letters accordingly - if all K teachers would do this, we'd have less to do in RR :o)
Mary/PA - They need a uniform way of making letters so that they can become fluent in this area
Brenda - Mary, as a Kinder teacher turned RR teacher, I completely agree with you about the importance of teaching correct letter formation in K. I am having to do much more teaching of letter formation this year because they didn't get it in K.
Mary/PA - Brenda, it is best to learn the right way as soon as possible - those bad habits that we see in RR lessons are so hard to change!
Mary/PA - Brenda, do you still teach Kinder the other part of your day?
Mary/PA - I theach K in the AM and RR in the PM of each day
Brenda - Yes! In fact several of mine were allowed to write in all Caps, so I am having to work extra hard to break the habits. I now teach 5 RR students and do 2 literacty groups.
Sadie - Mary, that's how I did it the last 2 yrs. this year I'm a support person for the other half of the day
Mary/PA - Boy, Sadie, I wish I could be that!
Mary/PA - This duel job is running me down
Sadie - Mary, I am really enjoying it... I forgot about how fun it is to work with the older kids too
Sadie - Brenda... the bad thing is that some of the kids I am having problems with in letter formation were in my class last year!!!! Ooops... I thought I did a good job on that. Just goes to show you....
Sadie - Mary, how long is your K day and are you doing 3 or 4 students in RR?
Mary/PA - Sadie, My K day is from 7:50 to 11:05 - I do 4 RR lessons from 11:45 - 2:25
Brenda - I think the thing I find most helpful in writing is to try to teach the tasks as early as appropriate and then put the child in charge. Trying to get them independent at something ASAP. It is usually just starting with one or two known words and learning to reread.
Sadie - That's a jam-packed day, Mary!
Mary/PA - Doug, are you still teaching Kindergarten as well this year?
Doug - Mary- yes I have a nice group of 20 kids and I do 3 RR kids
Sadie - Mary, when I did the K model our day went from 8:10 to 11:40... and I only did 3 RR kids!
Mary/PA - My Kinders this year are very young - there are many miles to go this year :o(
Doug - I just got back from a trip to Victoria Canada and i got to see a literacy lesson in Kindergarten. it was very nice (I hope I'm not sounding like martha Stewart..LOL)
Sadie - Mary, my principal told me that we may be in a study next year that for our district only will move the K birthday cut-off to Sept.
Mary/PA - I'd like to see if I can get a change - we are now getting closer to full implementation - one other teacher is in training this year for my building - maybe next year can be different
Sadie - Doug, my sister is a teacher in Surrey, BC
Mary/PA - I don't listen to Martha, Doug, so I wouldn't know if you did :o)
Sadie - Doug, what are they doing in Victoria... (my aunt lives there)
Sadie - I mean in literacy in K.. not the people in general! lol
Doug - I saw a 30 minute shared reading experience that used 4 readings
Sadie - Doug, how did your trip come about?
Mary/PA - Doug, do you mean they read the same story 4 times?
Sadie - Do they do sr the way we do it in CA?
Doug - Mary- I just came in on the tail end. I will make a copy of the info you gave us on the scale of help. Will California be using it? Is it from a TL conference?
Mary/PA - I don't know about that, Doug - I do get the impression that the info is being pushed by OSU
Mary/PA - Sadie, what is "sr"?
Doug - Sadie no....familiar big books like we do in RR
Sadie - mary, shared reading
Mary/PA - Oh, Duh :-\ I'm so slow!
Sadie - Well doug.... when I do SR we read the book daily for the week (I do 2 or 3 books) so by wed. or thurs. they are like familiar reading
Doug - the new big book is treated in the book walk like we do a guided reading book walk
Mary/PA - Do you also have the kids retell the story in differnt ways?
Sadie - If I am understanding you.. that's how i do it... how do you do it?
Mary/PA - That's the way I do things in my Kinder class - with SR
Doug - mary- I try to do text innovations and I use the text as springboards for phonic lessons but the more i do RR the less I use the visual and performing arts to construct meaning.
Mary/PA - We look through the book and make predictions - discuss new concepts - locate some letters and words that will be of help while reading, etc
Doug - part of it is the push push push mentality from the state. Everyone in K is expected to read at a 5 and score a 16 on CAP...that's work and little time for integrative activities
Mary/PA - Doug, here in PA, as part of the standards and Title testing, they have to be able to retell a story, so I give them practice with this so that they aren't in trouble when the testing happens
Doug - Mary- I have not seen big books used this way...it makes sense
Mary/PA - It's also good for their oral language skills - so many of the kids have very weak OL
Mary/PA - I just don't have the kids read the same book 4 times in a row in the same sitting - they seem to not enjoy that very much
Doug - mary- so if Sadie and you use the same sequence...a familiar big book is shown before a new one is introduced?
Mary/PA - We may read it twice, and then again tomorrow and later in the week as well
Mary/PA - Yes, Doug - I tell the kids that first they will read to me (the Fam. Big Book) and then we'll look at a new book
Mary/PA - We have about a million big books, so we don't ever run out of them
Doug - mary- you are quite lucky...do you have sets of 6 little books with tapes that accompany them?
Mary/PA - We have 6 or more little books of each big book, but not tapes - I don't want them to "memorize" the books
Mary/PA - So many of my RR kids - they all come from the other K teacher's class, think that reading is memorizing the book - that's just one more confusion to overcome
Doug - mary- the tapes are wonderful during guided reading...it gives them authentic reading practice and frees you to work with small groups
Mary/PA - We have tapes for lots of Wright Group Songs, but not for the regular big books
hi everyone--new her - hi
Mary/PA - I do more Building Blocks type activities - I don't do small groups until later in the year if and when they are needed
Doug - mary- tapes like almost anything else can be misued. In my experience, I find them effective
Doug - mary- in building blocks -they show kids how to write. Do they keep journals in your class?
Mary/PA - Yes they do.
Mary/PA - Well, I have to go now, it's always nice talking with you, I hope to see you again in two weeks - the 23rd - Thanks for coming tonight.
