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Mary K&1 - Welcome to Teachers.Net's Reading Recovery Meeting. Tonight we will be discussing "Children Who Are Hard To Accelerate.
tyylee - What kind of rule of thumb do you use to decide when to move a child up to another level?
Mary K&1 - tyylee, when there isn't enough reading work for the child and the texts are too easy
mudhole - If a child has successfully read at the present level for three days, I look for an easy book at the next level to see how they will handle it.
specialedsue - does hard to accelerate refer to children whose reading skills seem not to progress?
Mary K&1 - Special, Reading Recovery is an accelerated program - our kids are so far behind that they must progress at an accelerated pace in order to catch up the the average in their class - some kids are really hard to accelerate - that's what we are talking about here
kate - I am having trouble with a child who seems to have difficulty remembering ANYTHING! This one is hard to accelerate!
Mary K&1 - kate, do you stick with one thing long enough before moving on to another for your hard to remember child - let him over learn what he is now learning?
Ann - So am I, mine seems to have learned some letters and then tomorrow she has lost them and we start all over again
tyylee - I have a child who refuses/can't attend to the details of print. He makes sense but ignores the visual. What would you do?
Mary K&1 - tyylee, do you prompt for searching V? Can you use the CUS to get him looking?
Doug - Mary- before i went off-track. Sergio had to go back a level...not enough fluency and he could not read well the PM readers. He went to a 4 from a level 5. writing vocabulary is also slow. Maybe three new words a week
Mary K&1 - Doug, I think you just told the story - when the writing isn't moving - the reading doesn't go far either
Mary - What suggestions do you have to help kids remember words they write and in reading?
specialedsue - mary, I have just changed jobs...now in special ed. at a primary school... there are a lot of kids reading 2-3 years behind...where can I find more info. on reading recovery here in montreal?
Mary K&1 - special - did you look for links here? Reading Recovery Council of North America - http://www.readingrecovery.org/
tyylee - I prompt for the visual everyday but he just doesn't seem to use it when working independently. Today I was frustrated and just said "try that again" until he finally looked closely at the print.
mudhole - Tyylee, If you tell them to Try that again, they will eventually get the idea that they must do the work. They don't like it sometimes but they will know whose job it is.
tyylee - The child who isn't using visual cues is also having trouble acquiring writing vocab. The two are definitely connected
BB - I have a child whom I think should be tested for speced. I can't get her to hold on to more than 3 words
bonnie - My most difficult to accelerate has major fine motor problems as well as visual (neurological?) Focussing problems. This makes any writing very slow to complete. How much time should I spend on writing in a 30 min. lesson when this activity is so painfully slow?
Mary K&1 - bonnie, do you have any hope that his writing can become more fluent? - If so, spend more time on writing - cut the reading portions shorter for a while
Mary K&1 - tyylee, what did you do then? When he finally looked did you praise him big time?
Mary K&1 - Mary, do you do high frequency practice before each lesson? Also, do you have the child fill the practice page with a word he's working on learning?
Doug - Mary K& 1_ do you keep the same procedures when you bring a word to fluency? I find that Sergio needs lots of Sandbox and "write it fast" type of coaching. Most kids will remember
Mary K&1 - Doug, writing on different surfaces and with different materials can help some - others will be confused by it - you have to find what works for each child
tyylee - I have had the child make and remake the words with the magnetic letters but I haven't used the sandbox for fluency words. Good Idea!
Mary - Yes, we do fluency review at the beginning. Taking words to boxes has helped the child see the connection between sounds and words but they are still hard for him to remember the next day. We also play My Pile / Your Pile with new words from his reading. I just wondered is there something more. I have used the sandbox Doug and find that helps.
Mary K&1 - Have any of you had a colleague visit to help uncover the problems?
Ellen - Make sure you also trace the words. Sometimes it really takes some children more than a week to learn one word. Then after the first words are learned, it usually goes faster.
tyylee - Do you ever send word cards home to practice with these hard to accelerate children?
Ellen - I send word cards. I make a pack of words kids can write, and I tell parents they should be able to read and write the words.
Mary - Tyylee, yes I have been sending them home but the next day if they are not known I take them out. It doesn't seem as if I'm building upon his knowledge, but retracing old steps.
Karen - Hi, I have a child with global delays. My best writing with him comes when we work together with magnetic letters to spell words most meaningful to him. He then reuses those words over and over. They are not high frequency words though.
Pam - bonnie, you still need to keep a balance in your lesson since reading and writing are reciprocal but maybe you need to adapt how you approach it. I would try larger paper ... maybe even chart paper size for children that are having trouble. (I used this with a child with CP for a while until he began to take the letter formation under control. I'd also anticipate and write those letters that are especially difficult.
Mary - Global delays? Is that a Reading Recovery term?
Karen - No. That is how his disability is described . He is an 8 year old child that functions at a 4 year old level in a K/1 class.
jen - I have a child who starts pounding his head trying to remember it is familiar but he can't recall
Doug - Mary K& 1- speed is what I am hoping for....taking a word to fluency usually will make for a long lesson (with Sergio)
Mary K&1 - Doug, can fluency be achieved without taking words to fluency? fluency = speed
Mary K&1 - How are their strategies? Item knowledge is just a wee bit - doesn't do much to push reading development along - do these hard to accelerate kids have the strategies?
tyylee - Do you chose a new fluency word each day from that day's writing or do you stay with a word several days until the child remembers it?
BB - my slow to accel. child has the tracking and looking at pict for meaning. Those are her only strategies
Ellen - From my experience with hard to accelerate children, I'd say pick one word and stay with that word in all parts of the lesson and for as many lessons as it takes until you think the child has it!
BB - Ellen, I actually had to do that with this child's name!
Mary - He is beginning to sellf-monitor off of known words but this is not consistent. How can he self-monitor if his high frequency word knowledge is low?
Mary K&1 - Mary, are the texts to difficult for him? Kids can Self-Mon and SC even with low item knowledge - they can use what they do know - We have to remember to get those strategies working - if it means staying on lower text levels for a bit longer
bonnie - Mary K & 1 - I have spoken with his classroom teacher and the counselor regarding his writing. It seems he was tested for special during K but didn't qualify while his twin brother did. I already highlight lines for him on his blank journal pages. He writes some of his sentences on the magnetic white board. Holding a fatter writing utensil (like a marker) appears to help with his grip, but not much else.
Mary K&1 - bonnie, have you had your TL come and have a look? What did she/he say?
bonnie - Mary K & 1 - yes, my TL did come during a roaming lesson and reminded me that highlighting his lines is an external control that should only be used temporarily. He impressed her with his verbal ability. That is very misleading. He converses very well when he is control of the topic. She didn't appear to realize that, though. Of course that was only her first encounter with him. I have video taped us working tog. Time hasn't allowed for it to be critiqued by anyone yet.
Doug - tyylee- normally I would say that you teach for over learning so that the reading work can focus on meaning rather than the visual information (but with sergio.....)
Pam - yes...as a matter of fact one of my students' parent paid big bucks for a diagnosis at a private clinic. The results came back recommending all of the things that we do in RR as assistance techniques. Needless to say the child learned to read because of RR!
mudhole - I have a child who was just diagnosed a dyslexic. Any suggestions for helping him learn to write words with more than two letters? I'm hopeful that RR will work with this dyslexic child. He is very willing to try but is on the 34th lesson and still reading at level 3. I'm running out or books.
sue - has RR been successful even with dyslexic students?
Mary K&1 - What is your definition of dyslexic?
Ellen - When you say 34th lesson, is that counting Roaming or not?
Doug - sue- in reading recovery- we believe that all children can learn to read and write. Dyslexia (an inability to read) is usually a child who has not been successful with first teaching (Kindergarten)
sue - a child who has not been able to read or to write after 5 years of schooling - having had lots of resource teacher time..seems to be neurological processing difficulty
Ellen - The term dyslexia always makes me smile because as far as I know it just refers to kids who have trouble reading? Most of our kids qualify initially. We just have to find out if that's something that can be changed.
jen - i am afraid that dyslexia has many meanings for many people one parent told me it ran in the family i have a strong dislike for the term - choose never to use it because it easily becomes a crutch
Doug - mudhole - has your teacher leader been to see the child.
mudhole - Yes, we have been instructed to count the Roaming lessons as part of the overall number. I also did a Boehm Concepts test on him and he appears to have some holes in concepts.
Mary - I agree Ellen. I hate to see kids labeled with a processing disorder when it is the teachers job to discover why their head is tied up in little "knots".
sue - i also don't like to use the term dyslexic.. i am looking for something to use with him that has not been tried...i will go to the rr site...
tyylee - Doug, so you stay with one word in fluency practice, even if it takes several days, before going on to another?
Doug - tyylee- yes..but pick your battles with bigger things such as self-monitoring rather than learning a word
jen - i am trying staying at lower texts longer to develop strategies i think it is working strategies and fluency are my focus this is my 3rd year
tyylee - As I understand fluency words you ask the child to write the word and if he can't you show him/her and practice a few times and go on, no pressure. And then if time allows practice that word again at the end of the lesson.
Ellen - My teacher leader gave us one good idea this fall in Continuing Contact that I hadn't ever really thought about before. When you're choosing the words to teach, make sure the letters are all controlled in as many ways as possible. So, for instance with my lowest student, Estella, we started with "am" and then "see" because she controlled those letters in her name. Well, she didn't have m in her name, but she did write m for mom, stuff like that. It was just a major task to think about which words to try.
mudhole - We just had our first continuing contact meeting last week. She will not be here for quite awhile. I have a fellow RR teacher in my school. We have spent some time talking about strategies but nothing seems to help.
Doug - Ellen- very good.
Ellen - It took Estella a long, long time to hold on to any words other than her name, and she came in with Estella. She's only in lesson 26 though right now, and that counts Roaming, so I'm feeling better listening to the rest of you. I think she can probably write six words right now, and I'm pretty proud of her. :-)
tyylee - How soon do you stop pushing the sounds in the boxes and go to touching the sound boxes?
Pam - even though your TL can't make it you why not try video taping a lesson to send to her or ask a colleague to look at the tape for you and offer suggestions.
Doug - ellen- I see using the information from the OS but after 3 weeks you would need very good notes
Mary K&1 - tyylee, the HF words that you practice are the words that he was able to show you that he could spell at least 50% during taking words to boxes or in some other way - not words that you don't have any idea about how much he knows about them - does that make sense?
Mary - Mary I will try going down a level and see if I can get him up and going again.
BB - Ellen, that is a great idea!
Karen - Going down a level has worked for me.
tyylee - Mary K, Yes, we pick the fluency words from the daily writing, usually something that they can partially write or have done in sound boxes and can hear most of the sounds.
mudhole - We have ordered a book written by a dyslexic to help us understand (and maybe change some procedures) what my little guy is seeing.
jen - i understood that the words that you take to fluency should have been written by the child completely not words which you had made in boxes
Mary - Can you only draw the lines on the page for a short while with a child with motor issues?
Pam - what book?
Ellen - We're supposed to be keeping very good notes. HoHo. Wish me luck! My teacher leader says that those hard to accelerate kids demand extra good notes. I'm not so sure I can keep up, but I'll certainly try to think a little harder about what works for this little girl. One other thing that helps with Estella is making sure the books use patterns she can understand. She did well initially with the patterned books like I am talking, I am listening ... Mom is, Dad is .. Whatever it was about that sentence formation, she could hold it in her head. So we ended up using am and is as words then too because they fit with books.
tyylee - We were told that we should strive to have our children in level five by the tenth week. Has anyone else heard this?
Doug - Jen- yes, the guidebook offers an initial vocabulary to start with
Mary K&1 - tyylee - do you remind him that he wrote the word the day before in his writing book? Trying to get him to remember?
jen - doug for reading or writing
Doug - Mary K&1- how often do your children read for familiar reading the sentences from their writing book?
Ellen - I've never heard a limit put on number of weeks, but if you're looking at twenty weeks as an end of program, it'd certainly be nice to be getting close to 5 by ten weeks. I always feel as though 5 is a real milestone for kids. There's a real change to monitoring more consistently for the unknown words, and if they can start to do that successfully, well, then you're really off and running, I think. If that doesn't happen, something needs to change.
mudhole - Yikes!!! if they are to be in level 5 by the tenth week, most of the kids I've had in the last three years would be lost.
Pam - yes, Clay has spoken about the children that we need to be concerned about as being ones who are making slow progress and are not in level five by about the tenth week...that is not to say that they won't discontinue
Mary K&1 - Doug, not as often as I'd like - maybe just the previous day's story - if there's time - know what I mean?
jen - does 5 weeks count roaming
Ellen - One of my best success stories was a little boy that I know was in fives at Christmas! That was my training year, :-) and that says a lot. They let me keep him until February. But he discontinued at L. 14 and was a 20 by end of year. He just really needed awhile to get things together.
tyylee - Yes, the ten weeks counts roaming, or at least that is what we were told.
Debbie - I discovered with several students who had severe memory issues that having them trace known words on their word cards as they read them helped. After a while when they did not know the word I could say "Trace it" and they would remember. Then they only needed to touch the word to remember and eventually the word became known. Touching the word in a book they were reading would also help them remember.
Doug - Mary K & 1- I know exactly what you mean
mudhole - the students move along much more quickly if the classroom teacher is also teaching the strategies and using the vocabulary.
jen - mudhole that is a strong statement we are just finding out how true that is
Mary K&1 - Guess who said this - "In general, when the child is hard to accelerate he is finding some part or parts of the reading process difficult. Often he has learned to do something which is interfering with his progress, and he may have learned it from the way you have been teaching."
bonnie - My TL from my training year (last year) said level 5 by week 10 and then we were to sit down along with the counselor and determine if dismissing at that point was appropriate. I totally disagree with that philosophy so have learned to say as little as possible about my kiddos unless specifically asked.
Doug - Mary K & 1- good quote
Ellen - I had a fun experience the other day with Estella in the classroom. Her teacher had said she didn't volunteer in the classroom. The teacher was doing a guided reading group with Estella and others, who I sat down right behind Estella. Darned if she didn't volunteer! :-) Then she turned to her neighbor as if to explain her "brilliance". I read with her, she explained. I just had to laugh to myself. Sometimes these kids do need to be held accountable for what they know, but also, I think, initially we can give them confidence. If I can find a way to spend a little time occasionally in the classroom, I do try to do that. I think it helps the transition.
Doug - mudhole- i don't know your schedule but if you can go to the 1st grade room once in a while and do a guided reading lesson
Mary K&1 - At what point in the child's program do you call for a colleague visit to look at the hard to accelerate child?
mudhole - I put strategy posters in each of the first-grade rooms this fall. The teachers were grateful. I had thought they didn't want them but found they just hadn't had time (or information) to make them. It has made a big difference in the time it takes for
lucy - what type of education do you have to hold this position?
Doug - mary K& 1- do you have any suggestions on the order of your kids...i like to teach Sergio first
Mary K&1 - We are told to call in the forces at 5 weeks if we're not making good progress - do you folks do this?
jen - this is my first year to work in the classrooms where my rr students come from and i feel that the impact will be sooooo much greater this year, interest is peaking and classroom teachers model from what you are doing i love it
Doug - Mary K& 1- I talk to my friends every day but I have a unique situation
Pam - Bonnie, you may be missing out on the problem solving support of your TL and colleagues. Its kind of like the children...until we get them thinking out loud we can only guess at how to help. We have used as a rule of thumb that HArd to teach/accelrate "procedures" are implemented with these children - especially those below level five. Ten weeks is really almost too late. We try to begin looking at week five - not for purposes of dropping but for problem solving.
Mary K&1 - Doug, I have to rotate my kids so that they don't miss the same thing each day - My first student each day is missing recess - that's rough, but I have no choice
Ellen - I teach Estella at the time her teacher considers best for her to miss. We alternate the other three but are really careful that she misses the minimum of classroom instruction since all academics are difficult for her and since I take all my kids from the same room and someone always misses something.
Debbie - We call for a colleague visit at 5 weeks too.
Mary K&1 - Doug, do they have the time to observe you with the child that is puzzling you?
Doug - Mary K& 1- but doing your hard to accelerate child last is usually frustrating
mudhole - Doug, as a matter of fact, I do get to go to first grade for guided reading every day. We started a new literacy program this year. I work only with first graders. I have three guided reading groups in the morning and four RR students. It is a change
tyylee - If help is available call for help when you have exhausted your ideas, have checked the guide book for guidance, and nothing seems to be working.
Doug - Mary- no but if I am quiet someone will yell out a good prompt
Doug - mudhole- you are in a very powerful situation
Mary - Doug, I agree. I even wonder if I am giving my all to my last student. He is also my 5th student and the one I have concerns about.
Mary K&1 - Doug, I know, but he would be last only some of the time - some kids do better later in the day - you do whatever you can and what works - I just don't have a choice in my scheduling - it's too tight
jen - i think the tight schedule makes you more accountable it sure has me this year
bonnie - Pam, you are right. That's is why I joined the listserve and came here. Also, I found out about some RR tchrs in another district close to my own who I am going to contact.
Doug - Mary K and 1- I know. this year we have a first grade teacher trying to do RR before and after school. Its killing her
Pam - Good idea. I think the support that we give each other in problem solving is essential. I learn more from colleague visits than any other way.
Mary K&1 - Here's something that I often forget to do when trying to figure out a hard to accelerate child - "Is your programme addressing the child's strengths and weaknesses that were revealed in the Observation Survey?" I have to remind myself what his weakest areas were and see if I have been giving these areas extra attention
mudhole - I'll vote for that. I taught half day Kindergarten and RR one year and I thought I was going to die. The last year I taught two sections of Kind. and two RR students in my plan time. That was a mistake.
Mary K&1 - Doug, that would be a killer! I hope she's not going to have to do that long
Pam - Sometimes it might be a good idea to step back and readminister parts of the OS to check for growth and to be sure that our premises are still good.
nette - pam: I have done that. I think the assessment is not complete enough though
tyylee - We do a prediction of progress once a month and I find them to be a valuable way to sit back and reassess my children
Mary K&1 - nette - where is the OS lacking?
Doug - Mary K and 1- no its an experiment. I agree that we have to address the OS with instruction but after 3 weeks it just does not make sense. I find that the notes I took during roaming give me a better starting place
nette - I think it does not assess comprehension very well
Doug - Mary K& 1- the OS completely omits the affective domain of reading (just thought I would throw that in)
bonnie - This year I work with children who have a very supportive teacher - to both them and me. She has our shared students read their leveled books to the class during their circle time and she does her individual conferencing with them on their RR books. These three kiddos are on weeks 5, 5, and 3 and are on levels 6, 4, 5. They all began Roaming at B. I'm very proud of their progress. It is far better than my first year's students at this same point in the program. I can't attribute it all to my improved teaching. The classroom tchr support makes all the difference.
Pam - I try to highlight on my lesson records new things that I see the child taking on and shifts in behavior. That helps me to spot quickly things to work from.
bonnie - explain the difference between sound and letter boxes.
Doug - bonnie- that is in the guidebook. when a child is ready to move from sound boxes to letter boxes it means that the kid writes a sound for every box (sound box) and then a letter for every box (letter box)
Mary K&1 - Sound boxes are just enough boxes for the sounds that the word has - letter boxes are the exact number of letters in the word, even the letters that aren't heard or when it takes more than one letter to make a sound
Julie - bonnie sound boxes are just what the child can here for the sound of words and letter boxes are the look of the word, how it is spelled
Mary K&1 - Oh, the time is almost up, what do we want to talk about next time - Oct. 25?
nette - how about making and breaking Mary
tyylee - I would like to spend more time on discussing writing next meeting
Mary K&1 - Making and Breaking is always a good topic, are there any other thoughts?
jen - thanks mary k&1 i appreciate the added session i always get good ideas hate to miss
nette - Mary: could we talk about both?
Mary K&1 - Yes, that sounds good to me, the Writing tasks, we can talk about all of the writing components
Doug - bye...and thanks again Mary
Pam - Good night all!
tyylee - Looking forward to chatting on Oct. 25. Happy teaching everyone
Mary K&1 - Thank you all for coming - pass the word around about these meetings - I hope to see you all in two weeks, good night.
