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Mary K&1 - Welcome to this evening's Teachers.Net Reading Recovery Meeting. Tonight we will be discussing the writing portions of the RR lesson.
Mary K&1 - Does anyone have any good tips to offer about how to get a good story out of your RR kids for writing and get it quickly?
gin - What sort of interests do the kids have?
barb - I have quite a walk to my room and always try and get conversation started and then into the story
jen - hi! I try to talk to my students as we walk to my room they usually have something to say and i pick up that conversation again when we are ready to write
jen - barb sounds like we are on the same wave length
Mary K&1 - That's the hard part, gin. They don't have much to say about anything - it's hard to get some of them to talk
jen - the running record book often leads to a story
tyylee - Partners In Learning by Lyons and Pinnell says that the greatest gains are made when the writing comes from the reading.
kinderkate - What do you do when the 'story' isn't in standard English?
andrea - It was really freeing when at a conference, we talked about how we could use our running record book to get the conversation started. This really helped increase the vocabulary in the writing portion.
Doug - kinderkate- does that sound right?
Mary K&1 - tylee, that's what I usually have to do with a couple of my kids - talk about their favorite part of the rr book in order to get them talking
Mary K&1 - kinderkate - we have to keep it the way the child says it, if you don't, it won't mean much to them and they will have a hard time reading it
kinderkate - You know, when the child uses words like "I goes to the store " or the like.
jen - one parent sent me a note about correct grammar the second wk of lessons i tried to explain that i was using his language they never remember early if you try to change what they want to say
barb - what do you do to limit the story to a manageable size?
ginny - Isn't it recommended that early in the child's program we accept the sentence as given because that is the way the child will read it? (GB)
kinderkate - I agree with them not remembering early on, but what about later on in the lessons? Especially the ELL's - I hate to have them practice incorrect language structure.
Doug - kinderkate- say- so you went to the store. I like to paraphrase using standard English
tyylee - For some children who lack language skills it is helpful to start a pattern by saying I like or play or etc.__ and then have them say I _____ and after a few times let them chose one to wrote.
kinderkate - GOOD question, Barb!!!! Some don't want to say anything and the next one goes on and on.
jen - sometimes i say we are running out of time and say do you mind if i finish this for you if they have had to do a lot of work already they are generally agreeable
tyylee - ooops write
Mary K&1 - The GB says to keep it as the child says it and in time the child's language will change (or something like that) maybe if we talk about the book, more "book language" will be used by the child.
andrea - Last week behind the glass, this teacher tried to get her student to say gave instead of gived. She even used it on the practice page. The little girl never got it, so she still read it gived. The Elkonian boxes that the teacher used on the practice page were meaningless because the girl had her sentence stuck in their head.
kinderkate - lol tyylee - you did what the kids do. But thanks - that is a good suggestion, as is Doug's. I'll try both.
Mary K&1 - barb, say "We'll just write about this part of your story and we can write more about it tomorrow."
Mary K&1 - And then write more tomorrow.
jen - i have a child who never remembers his sentence any ideas we repeat i've tried pipe phones reading it back after i write it on the lesson record
Doug - barb- say -lets write the rest of this story tomorrow. (after a sentence of course)
andrea - jen, what is a pipe phone?
barb - can you reread yesterdays story and add on to it today?
kinderkate - Jen - what else is happening - does he have problems remembering other things.
Mary K&1 - jen, acting as his memory is one of your jobs. If you have him say it several times and it IS his story, but he still can't remember it, you remind him.
jen - made with pvc pipe the child speaks and hears our tl always says to quote m fried out the mouth and in the ear
Mary - jen do you have him reread the sentence as he writes each word?
ginny - reading yesterdays story may help to generate today's and that may help with the memory as well
jen - kk yes he fits the hard to remember
tyylee - jen, try keeping the story short, say four or five words for a few lessons.
Doug - mary- this is good....do you have them say it aloud as they write?
jen - we do reread the sentence i still have to prompt to get this
Mary - doug,yes and then i say let's read what you've written so far.
Doug - tyylee- one of the graphs is word count with stories...does anyone use the graph...it is in the guidebook
jen - tyyleee that has helped he still often changes something but it has not been as serious he is quite verbal
Mary K&1 - Doug, that's one of the things they should be doing - I model that all through RAK and then when it comes time for them to take over, they know what I mean when I ask them to do it
tyylee - Doug, we count the words the child can write alone and graph that number but do not count the words in the story. I wasn't even aware that there was such a graph.
jen - doug tell us more about they graph you mentioned
Doug - tyylee- if you are concerned with observing the # of words per sentence over time it is important
Sadie - Doug, i didn't know about that graph either!
barb - what graph are you talking about?
tyylee - Where in the guide book is that graph found?
Mary K&1 - Doug, I don't use the graph, I use the page where all the words the child writes are recorded for each week and another one where the word are on alphabetical order so I can find them quickly, I don't have time for yet another piece of paper LOL
Sadie - mary, I use the same.
Doug - its in the guidebook....and my TL said it was a research thing
Mary K&1 - tyylee, the graph is at the end of either the OS or the GB
barb - mary-I use the same but would the graph replace two for one?
jen - i understand that sentences should become more complex but i',m not sure i see the value
Sadie - i know this isn't the topic but I am having a REALLY hard time with a student. We just got back from being off-track for 4-weeks and its as if i had never worked with this child! (and we are in week 8)
tyylee - Mary, we use those two pages plus one where we graph the total number of words the child can write independently.
Mary K&1 - barb, the graph can't replace the list - I need to know the words, not just how many
claire - I have a shy quiet and nondemonstrative boy..any ideas to help me to get him to read faster and smoother??
kinderkate - I am thinking the same, jen. I really don't see the purpose of longer and more sentences.
jen - tylee that is what we were instructed to do and submit to tl monthly
Sadie - He still only knows 7 letters (and only 4 of those are firm). He only has 2 firm known words and about 4 more that are partial knowns.
Doug - mary i agree that's why i don't use it
Sadie - claire, do you ever try modelling how the book should sound after he has read it?
Doug - Sadie- using letter books?
tyylee - As the child writes more and more words fluently and learns to say words slowly, clap for word parts etc. they should be able to write longer and more complex sentences in the same amount of time.
Sadie - Yes, Doug. he seems to hold things in well during the portion of the lesson and then when i try to make those echoes later its like he has never seen it before!
jen - claire i do the rereading to try for more fluency i think it helps and try to read very expressively
kinderkate - Did you send anything home with him for the break, Sadie? I am very interested in your problem as we will go on break next week!
claire - yes, and I use prompts of "read it all" over and over, rereading with intention of speeding up, but during the next lesson's fam. rdg., he's slow and it is torturous...
kinderkate - Yes, tyylee, I agree - but by that time the books are longer and more time is needed for reading.
Mary K&1 - We have a form that has a place to summarize things every 5th week, we enter the # of words there
Doug - sadie, move away from the PM's and stay with the rhyming ones like wrightgroup
Mary K&1 - Sadie, how is his letter knowledge?
Sadie - Yes, kinderkate. I sent about 15 books with each child plus a stack of cards with known words for them to play with. (His pile contains multiple copies of the same words.... to, I, like, am, can and his name. His name and "I" are the firm knowns. (and he only just got his name a week or so before we went off-track.
tyylee - You might try having the child read in two or three word phrases to achieve more fluency.
Mary K&1 - Nothing seems to stick for long if they are weak on their letters
kinderkate - Sadie - what was his K year like?
Sadie - Doug, believe me, i do! I have run out of books that I can use for him! Mary, it is VERY meagre! (And I can't blame it on his K teacher.... that was ME! LOL... I feel like such a failure!)
Sadie - kinder, he was the lowest all year. He came to me speaking little English and his mom can't help him with his homework (as much as she would like to) But our spanish aide says that his language is very low in Spanish too... and his concept knowledge is low in spanish too.
Mary K&1 - Sadie, spend a lot of time on those letters. Experience has taught me that all will fall through or not stick if the letters are not solid
jen - i lost about 15 books when a child moved over break
tyylee - Sadie, have you tried having him write the letters in sand, in chalk, in the air, with wicky sticks, trace sandpaper letters etc. ?
barb - sadie- have you tried multiple strategies in the same lesson?
kinderkate - Sadie - we are questioning servicing ELL's that are that low. How do the rest of you feel about ELL students who have very little English?
Sadie - Mary, I will. We keep doing the same letters in different ways every day. I don't know how he could not be holding it. These little guys sure keep us guessing, don't they?
Mary K&1 - Do the things listed in the GB for Suggestions for extending a knowledge of letters
jen - do the low ell students usaually discontinue do you allow more time
Sadie - tyylee, I haven't tried all of those, but I have used sand letters, magndoodle, chalk, water pen, in the air...........
Sadie - barb, what do you mean?
Mary K&1 - page 24
Doug - barb- (I hope your not Brabara Watson) tell me more about multiple strategies....I have alsways tried the opposite keeping my focus to one strategy
barb - sadie-like salt trays, magna doodleetc throughout the lesson
tyylee - What about a child who says one word that he/she intends to write and then writes a totally different one. ex, the/is
ginny - in thinking about extending letter knowledge be sure to go to GB page 14 & 15 where we have some help with working with confusions. I find this a helpful place to revisit occasionally
Sadie - kinder, I had another 2nd language learner that we are saving for 2nd round hoping he will pick up more english. But this child we felt needed to be picked up right away so that if he doesn't discontinue we can send him for immediate testing. (did that make sense?)
Mary K&1 - Sadie, have him talk about what he notices about the letters, how some are alike and different - takl about their shapes, try ti find something that he can link to to help him remember
Doug - tyylee- i get that one...i think keeping to her original sentence/story can keep it to 10 minutes
Mary K&1 - tyylee, that's what we call a confusion :o)
Doug - sadie- its not you..remember it is after a year of good first teaching that a child is selected for rr
Sadie - barb, so you mean like in writing for example... pull out the magnadoodle in addition to the practice page?
Mary K&1 - Take just one of them for a while and over learn it before working on the other
ginny - in choosing the letters to work with try to select ones that have very different visual images and differe nt sounds to their names if you can.. I think t and o are good because they are so different. The more differnt they are the easier for the child to hang on to.
kinderkate - I get that all the time, tyylee. Today one child wrote like on the board and read it correctly. Then I asked him to write "I". He wrote that correctly and then read "like". I told him to check it again and he read it incorrectly another time.
barb - sadie- yes the more different opportunities the better
Sadie - Mary, another thing is that his oral language is difficult to understand. It seems to be more than a 2nd language problem. I often have a difficult time understanding him.
tyylee - When I draw the child's attention to what he has written he knows immediately what it is and can then show me the correct word at the top of the page. He is so impulsive he doesn't stop to think before writing. I have to hold his hand to keep him from writing before he thinks about the word.
kinderkate - Yes - Sadie - a lot of sense. How long will you keep him before looking further?
Sadie - good point ginny.
Doug - kinderkate- that is why I use PM's because they reuse words
Sadie - I'll try that tomorrow, Barb. Thanks. The one light is today in the rr (after a 4-week break) he was reading a page and went..."Hey... there's no more words" so he sm that his 1:1 was off!
Mary K&1 - Kinderkate, the capital I and the lower case l look the same in so many books - I can see why kids get confused
Sadie - Kinder, I advised his teacher to make a referral now so we can get the ball rolling but I do intend to keep him for the full 20 weeks and give him the best I can.
Doug - Mary- that is why Frank Smith once wrote we read behind our eyes
Mary K&1 - Sadie, have you started his Alphabet Book with him yet?
Sadie - mary, something I have started doing in my K class is have the kids sort letters of different fonts. For ex. I will give a child a pile of I's and a pile of x's for them to sort. I hope this will help my future RR kids!
Mary K&1 - Does he know more than 10 letters?
Sadie - Yes, Mary (though we are not supposed to start until he has more letters, right!? The RR police are after me!)
Doug - sadie- what does your tl say?
kinderkate - What are the other teachers at your school doing, Kim? Every teachaer in San Diego has to administer DRA this year, and all are having the same problem as you.
Mary K&1 - Sadie, how many letters does he know?
tyylee - We were told that after the Roaming time you can add letters to the ABC book as you work on them and then use the book to review from previous lessons.
Sadie - mary, I'm afraid not. It is so hard for me to prompt him to self-monito when there is often nothing on the page that he CAN monitor with except for 1:1 (which is not firm) and oral language (which is also not firm)
Sadie - Doug, I have asked her to come watch a lesson so she will be there soon. mary, he knows about 7 letters but is only firm in 4-5 of them.
Mary K&1 - Sadie, it may be time to refer him for evaluation for a long term program - he had good first teaching, YOU and he's had a second chance, sounds like he's a candidate for a long term situation
tyylee - Sadie, does he know the letters in his name? Those are usually the easiest for the child to learn as they are used to writing them.
Sadie - i feel like I am just complaining here about my little guy! Thanks for all of the feedback guys!
Doug - sadie- perhaps rsp can be in his best interest
kinderkate - I agree, Mary, but I didn't want to be the first to say it. Sadie, some kids just need more than we can give them.
Mary K&1 - What's the biggest writing challenge for the rest of you?
Sadie - mary, we plan to do that. Its just hard because he was mine last year and i want him to succeed so badly!
Sadie - Tyylee.... unfortunatly his name is Guadalupe. He knows the G by sound and the a by name and sound. That is it for his name. i wish his parents had named him Ed!
jen - sadie don't feel bad like you were complaining it is so very hard when you have that lowest child and he needs much more
Doug - mary- I want to learn how to follow a word (at beginning levels) with wonderful questions to get a story
ginny - I think my biggest writing problem is moving my kids along to get to the two to three sentences referred to in GB and getting them to do the work fluently
kinderkate - Especially, Sadie, when you had him in K. We begin to feel for those kids much like a parent.
Mary K&1 - This year, the handwriting skill of my kids was SO weak, but they are improving, but this has really slowed things down - short sentences have been the norm since it takes them so long to form the letters - I do lots of letter fluency practice
Doug - mary- come- where did you want to go Orangelo?
Sadie - jen, our training site is at my school and this year's training class did the OS on all of our kinders (last year) for practice. He scored the lowest in the school!
Mary K&1 - Why is it that the lowest kids have the longest names? LOL
Sadie - yes, kinder. And he is a sweet kid from a loving family. oh, well... enough of my problem! Thanks for the encouragement!
jen - keep your head up sadie i can tell you have given him your best effort
Mary K&1 - Doug, if you use the word in your leading question, it has a good chance of coming up in the child's response, but not if the word is not in the child's normal speaking vocab
Doug - Mary- yes thanks i heard that from my TL but forgot it
Mary K&1 - Well, this was one fast hour! What will we talk about next time?
Mary K&1 - Maybe letter work - I'm finding out just how important that is and we often quit it too soon
Sadie - mary, in light of the discussion about my student that would be a great topic!
ginny - letter work sounds good to me; some help on understanding how to extend that work as our children progress?
tyylee - Mary, how about a discussion on Making and breaking
Doug - yes...thanks again mary...tomorrow I will use the word in a question as see if it comes up? Thanks
Sadie - Doug, for some of our teachers that is getting to be true! And mary, are we having these every two weeks now or did I dream that?
Mary K&1 - tylee, making & breaking can only work after the letters are known well, we'll talk about letters next time and them M&B the time after that, OK?
Mary K&1 - Sadie, yes, every two weeks, isn't that great!
Mary K&1 - Good night everyone and thanks for coming - see you all next time
