Join the Reading Recovery Mailring listed in the English Center at the
Teacher Mailring Center
http://www.teachers.net/mailrings/
Mary K&1 - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight we will be discussing Letter Work.
Doug - mary- do you like having kids have good letter knowledge before make and break?
Mary K&1 - Doug the GB says that they need to have a good handle on the letters before M&B is started
Mary K&1 - Of course it is said differently in the GB, but you know what I mean
Doug - I was very impressed with barbara Watson's comment to a room full of us that we (Americans start m&b too early and kids need lots of experiences sorting with up to 3 or 4 letters using both hands
Mary K&1 - M&B won't make much sense to the child if the letters used are not known to him
Julie - What did she suggest Doug?
Doug - Julie- lots of sorting on the chalkboard but quickly
Mary K&1 - The GB does a good job of explaining what to do with letters - how to extend the learning of them
Mary K&1 - We need to follow it and not quit too soon on these letter activities
Doug - mary- the GB does not talk about letter books but they are sure popular at our school
Mary K&1 - Sorting and tracing and making the letters in and with different mediums
Doug - mary the new stickers available at Resources for Reading - http://www.abcstuff.com/ sure make the ABC book easy....:)
Mary K&1 - You can also get some stickers that you can print out with your own computer at - http://www.amihome.com/rrca/rrcalabels.htm
tyylee - Doug, do you mean commercial letter books or ones you make with the child for a specific letter?
Doug - tylee- the dominie letter books
Mary K&1 - Doug, I've been searching the GB for mention of the letter books, and there really isn't much, but she does have a sentence in there that says something about using little books that feature a letter - I think that she may have meant something like the letter books that we now have and use
tyylee - Give me some examples of ways to use the Dominie letter books other than just reading them.
Mary K&1 - I can't tell you exactly on what page, but it is there
Pat - Pg. 25...Look for a simple book that illustrates the new letter...
Doug - Pat- thanks
Mary K&1 - tyylee, you have the child say the picture and the word and ask them if they can see the ___ and if they can hear the ___ - fill in the letter name and sound - and also have them point to the letter and frame it with their fingers
Mary K&1 - Thanks Pat! Do you have the GB memorized?
Pat - No, but I have it with me...
Pat - The more I read, the more that's there.
tyylee - Mary, do you use these books with your Kind. children?
Doug - here's an interesting topic....when teaching a letter we need to use the most different principle rather than most similar. In other words, never use for sorting d and b but rather l and o...very visually different....any comments?
Doug - Do you guys use a known letter and then include the new one?
Pat - Does anyone sort letters by features? I can't get a handle on that one.
Mary K&1 - I have a student who focuses on the sound of the letter which is great, but she tries to come up with a name for the letter based upon the sound and that is getting her very confused - I'm trying to get her away from trying to think of letter names altogether right now for a while - do you know what I meant? Anyone else having this problem?
Doug - Pat- circles/sticks, tall short and underwater
Mary K&1 - tyylee, yes I use letter books in both kinder and RR
Pat - Mary K&1..The letter Hh is one of the worst for this problem. Poorly named letter if you ask me.
Mary K&1 - The Wright Group also has a nice set of letter books I like them even more than the Dominie Books
tyylee - I have a student who can tell me the letter name that goes with the sound and then writes a different one. We have been doing lots of letter work to try to remedy the confusion.
Pat - Doug, I know the terms, but where does this type sorting get you?
Doug - tylee- that is a problem for sound boxes no?
Mary K&1 - Doug we should start with the letters that are most different - moving slowly towards the more similar ones
tyylee - Doug, sound boxes helps some but not when he can hear and identify the sound and then writes a g when he has said h
Mary K&1 - Pat, yes, H is named incorrectly and so are many others - G and J for example!
Doug - tylee- then the work should be on letter formation on the practice page of the writing book?
Pat - I have a student who "knew" both Dd & Dad and Gg & go, but now has begun making some unusual combination of lower case d& g. We are working with 3 ways of remembering and noticing the height of the stick.
Mary K&1 - tyylee - that sounds like he has a visual confusion - has linked to the wrong visual form of the letter
Mary K&1 - or is just guessing because he really doesn't know how the g looks
tyylee - Yes, that is one of the things we do when a confusion comes up. We also spend part of the make and break time writing the unknown letter, getting the making of the letter under voice control and naming it over and over.
Pat - Does anyone have the child reread their ABC book on a regular basis, if they have low letter knowledge?
tyylee - We write it in several mediums and different sizes and different places.
Mary K&1 - Pat, have you made the letters, one at a time and not on the same day, very large on the chalk B with the side of a piece of chalk and then had the child drive a matchbook type car on the letter talking about what direction he is driving and where he is going?
Mary K&1 - This sometimes helps them to see the differences between the similar looking letters
Pat - Good idea !! Mary K&1, I'll give it a try.
Doug - pat- I used to...right after the teaching point of the rr book and before make and break, it gave me time to do the msv analysis and to choose a good thing to follow for make and break...my TL cautioned me against this though
Mary K&1 - Sorting helps the child see the differences and similarities in the letters - helps them to attend to the details of the letter forms
tyylee - We sometimes use the ABC book as a familiar book to read
Doug - Mary- that is an excellent idea
Pat - But if you are doing Making & Breaking, then they are probably not working with low letter knowledge, Doug.
Mary K&1 - My Elizabeth just noticed the difference between the o and a - she never saw the straight part of the a until we did a lot of letter sorting, plus she was desperately in need of vision correction and is now seeing all kinds of things that she wasn't seeing before.
Doug - pat- that's what the TL said...I was looking for an over learning thing
Pat - Thanks, tyylee, I think using the ABC for familiar reread on occasion, could be useful.
Mary K&1 - Pat, yes. rereading their alphabet book is a good thing to do - also having them tell what is next helps them to get the letters organized in their brains - you know - Marie explains what to do in the GB
Mary K&1 - I think that we are tempted to quit reading the alphabet book too soon.
tyylee - At what point do you start make and break?
Pat - In my training year I sent it home too early with a child and wished many times we had it back. Live and learn.
Pat - We say Making and Breaking.
Mary K&1 - You can read the Alphabet book during the letter work time - you may want to read just a portion of it - a different portion each day, but do read it
Mary K&1 - tyylee, start M&B after the child knows 20 letters well - 20 different letters e.g. A and a don't count as 2 letters , just one - that's what we've been taught and it makes sense to me
Mary K&1 - That's M&B = Making and Breaking
tyylee - That's what I thought, after 20 letters but you still have to take time to learn the other letters it the child isn't showing signs of acquiring them through reading and writing.
Pat - GB pg. 17...Roman numeral 1. - a little Making & Breaking but mostly known words. From RR conference in Dallas 1998 - Roman numeral I aligns with text level 1 - 5. What do you think?
Melinda - I thought they needed to know 20 words well before making and breaking - not 20 letters
Phyl - I start M&B as soon as we've completed all of the letters in the ABC book. I've been working on M&B for quite a few weeks now with one of my students...and he's just not getting it Any suggestions !
Mary K&1 - Yes tyylee, you have to teach the other letters too, but you can start M&B after 20 are known and do a little of both letter work and M&B during that part of the lesson
tyylee - We were told that M&B always starts with a known word from the writing known words. Does anyone do M&B with known words from the reading?
Doug - mary- all in no more than 2 minutes LOL
Mary K&1 - Phyl, maybe he doesn't really know the letters well enough - have you given the LID lately just to see?
Melinda - I do M&B with known words from writing
Mary K&1 - Also, if he isn't associating sounds to the letters yet, Making and Breaking will be difficult
Melinda - Two of my guys don't get letter sound yet so in addition to words to fluency I sometimes do a picture sort matching a couple of pictures each to letters they are having some trouble with - Is this OK?
Doug - Melinda- i just had a friend visit me at my school and she reminded me that m&B is not for learning words but a way to show strategies on how words work
Mary K&1 - Pat, I'm thinking about you alignment question - I've not thought of the book level in regards to letters knowledge - maybe I should think about that more, But I do know that a child needs to have a very good understanding of the letters to be able to read level 6 and beyond
Melinda - Doug - if we have to go from words known to new - you must have to start with words they already know how to write don't you?
Doug - Melinda- I would agree
tyylee - Doug, that is important for us to remember, it is too easy to try to use M&B to teach a word from the new book.
Mary K&1 - Yes Doug the great 2 mins - so much to do!!
Doug - tylee- sneaking in "went" huh? Me never...LOL
Pat - The levels to roman numeral connections were suggested as: I = levels 1-5, II = levels 6-10, III = levels 11 -17. I'm quite sure they are not "hard & fast".
Mary K&1 - Melinda, I would spend more time on saying words slowly - stretching them out and listening for what he hears - have him make the sounds he hears - don't ask him to give names of letters - after he tells you a sound he hears than ask how we can write it
tyylee - I have a couple of children who don't articulate clearly and so can't hear the sounds unless I model it and do it with them. Anyone have any suggestions/
sally - Any good suggestions on how to maintain these RR kids for grade 2 and 3 then?
Melinda - Yes, I guess so. They are having a lot of trouble with hearing the sounds and I'm not sure where to go. It seems difficult when they just don't get the idea of sound - letter relationship. any ideas?
Mary K&1 - tyylee, can they hear the sounds when you make them?
Pat - Can they feel the sound in there mouth...start with easy to feel sounds?
Pat - Their mouths ( I hope everyone's reading for meaning here).
tyylee - I feel that they really need to do the stretching independently but it is impossible at this point. At what point should I expect this independent behavior? Yes, they hear the sounds when I make them but not when they say the words. I try to have them repeat after me but they usually still aren't articulating clearly.
Mary K&1 - Melinda, lots and lots of saying the words slowly - stretching them out - singing them - tape record the child so he can hear himself that way - saying the words slowly
Mary K&1 - tyylee, so they aren't making the sounds correctly - have you talked to the speech teacher for some pointers - do these kids have speech and language services?
Melinda - I'll try that. We worked on 'dog' for a story today and he kept saying d - og - dog for the three sounds. He couldn't say it after me correctly. I guess we just have to keep practicing.
tyylee - Mary, they have no real speech problems but dialect problems. For instance they never hear the n in went
Pat - Melinda, What if you said "say it like a ghost ...and modeled the slow enunciation you want? It worked for me the one time I tried it .
Melinda - I also find that if I try to slowly articulate a word for him - even the word 'me' that I have to connect the two sounds in order for him to hear the word.
Mary K&1 - Give them a rubber band and have them stretch the rubber band while they say the word slowly keeping their voice going all the while the band is being stretched - get them to coordinate this stretching activity
Melinda - Thanks for the suggestions - I'll try anything!
Mary K&1 - hearing the n in went is difficult for most children I would not expect it of them until they hear the easier sounds in short words - do two letter words first and then three - I should say two sound words and then three and so on
Mary K&1 - Well I time is almost up - next meeting is Nov. 25 - we will be discussing Making and Breaking
