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Mary K&1 - Welcome to tonight's Teachers.Net Reading Recovery Meeting. Tonight we will be discussing Making and Breaking.
Mary K&1 - What stage on M & B are you in now?
tyylee - I have a make and break question, my children just don't seem to do well changing the ending, ie bed, bet, beg any suggestions?
Mary K&1 - I've just started with 3 of my kids, we had a lot of letter work to do before we were ready
Doug - one child is still leaning letters and one is manipulating the rime and one is working with vowels and endings
tyylee - They do well changing the initial sound and can do endings like ed and ing but the other is a problem
Doug - tylee- are you showing the known on top? Is the one being manipulated below?
Mary K&1 - tyylee, did you move too soon to endings?
tyylee - Doug, yes They keep trying to put the new sound at the beg. even though it is being put at the end. they aren't saying the initial and vowel as one unit.
Mary K&1 - Can this child break and make the known word?
Doug - tylee- step in and say..."were looking at endings ...look this is how I would change ......
tyylee - They are doing the change of initial sounds very well.
tyylee - That is a good point, they aren't understanding breaking the known word. I need to do more with that first. Thanks
Doug - Does everyone have an egg timer by the chalkboard...i love that idea
tyylee - What are you doing with the egg timer?
Mary K&1 - tylee, work with just known words - break the ending away and then slide them together while saying - when this goes well start adding new endings
Doug - tylee- an egg timer is a 2 minute thing...helps me keep to the 30 minute lesson
Kate - I would like to join the Reading Recovery meeting
Mary K&1 - I don't use the egg timer, I've been doing pretty well with keeping the lessons to the 30 mins - I don't have any extra time - I have to keep to the time
tyylee - Thanks for the help!! I will back up and do more modeling with the known words. Doug, do you really stay with only two minutes? That is hard to do!
Doug - Mary- do you ever follow your make and break with writing and use it again on the practice page of the writing book? Assuming the same word is worked on
tyylee - Do you "encourage" the child to make a sentence using the make and break words?
Mary K&1 - My writing always follows Making and Breaking - if the word comes up and there is any hesitation, I will have the child write it all over the practice page
Doug - tylee- no and I am ashamed to say so. When I go over it is like running out of gas...the new book crashes and the next day is affected
Doug - Does anyone cut up the sentence strip to take home the same way that the make and break was cut?
Bev - Sounds like a good idea
tyylee - Do you make new analogies on the practice with words that children use in their writing on the practice page? ie if the child used take, show them that they could also make make and lake/
Mary K&1 - tyylee, I try to work in high frequency words that have not yet come up in the writing - M & B uses words already known and builds some new, but I don't try to work them in - I will have the child generate an unknown from a known during writing if the situation arises
Kate - I cut up the sentence strip by what we worked on in the writing such as clapping syllables , endings , etc.
tyylee - Doug, I like that idea, it might help them get the idea of ending sound changes.
Mary K&1 - Doug, yes, the CUS is cut that way if it shows up in the sentence
Doug - tylee- I don't do enough of this...at continuing contact we were reminded of the 3 classic ways to write unknown words: memory, letter sound sequencing and analogy
Doug - kate- In all honesty though i am so preoccupied with getting in a good book intro...I forget about the power that CUS can have
Mary K&1 - This isn't a M & B question, but it is one I'd like to hear from others about - When do you consider a word as known and add it to the child's known writing words chart?
tyylee - I have a child who is having a hard time acquiring high frequency words and so those available for Make and Break are limited. This makes it hard to plan new make and break lessons.
Katydid/CA. - Mary K, that's sometimes a tricky call, but we usually add something to the chart if they show me in writing that they can write it spontaneously, without my scaffolding.
Mary K&1 - tylee, that's why I concentrate on getting HF words into the sentence - I have to work hard to get to those HF words so that we have something to work with in the other parts of the lessons
rachel - Are you teaching the high-frequency words during Fam. Reading and using them in the CUS and making sure that new word is in the new book?
Mary K&1 - Katydid, that's what I do, if they can write it quickly without boxes or any other kind of work, that's when I add it to the chart, but not before
Katydid/CA. - I agree Mary. I will even go so far as to suggest that the child use a HF word we have TWAR or taken to fluency in their story for the day.
tyylee - Mary, that is a hard one, if it is a word they have just made in make and break or one that they had for a fluency word that day they can sometimes write it that day and by the next day it is gone.
Doug - mary- in California...many t3eachers are trained to use the chalkboard before the timer is used..its not part of the lesson but it gives a good check
Katydid/CA. - Doug-sometimes I get disgusted because we hear conflicting stories at conferences. We were all doing 1-2 min. of that until Barb. W said that was never part of the lesson and Marie didn't like it.
tyylee - Doug, are you speaking about the writing of a HF word from the previous day's writing as a check before the actual lesson starts? That is what we do. Sometimes I keep the same word for several days if they don't quite have it. For the slow child it helps to work on the same word for several days instead of a new word each day.
Mary K&1 - Doug, we do that also, but often a child can write the word asked for during the fluency pre lesson activity, but draws a blank if comes to the word in the writing portion - the word seems to not really be known
Doug - I mark it on the bottom right corner of the lesson plan and I circle it if it was attempted and circle and check if it was written fluently..On Friday I look for the circles with checks
Kate - We do what tyylee says and write a HF word from the writing before the lesson starts.
traci - we start with the word to fluency before the lesson starts
traci - Many of my kids can read it in isolation, they can write it in isolation, but they can't read it in a group of words.
Mary K&1 - Katydid, that's strange, I could swear that it is in the GB, but I do think that Marie says something about "sometimes" or something like that - indicating that it is not something that we must do every day
Kate - I have found what Mary says is true, it can be written in the beginning of the lesson and the child may not know it in the writing of their story,. 'Known" is very difficult to assess sometimes.
tyylee - They tell us not to think about the new book when planning Make and Break, but sometimes I wish I could plan for new things they will encounter in the new book.
rachel - Kate, maybe that is what M.C. means about things being partially known with lapses???
Katydid/CA. - I agree Mary K--it is in the guidebook, but Barbara has a new interpretation for us at every conference--sort of keeps us muddled. I find that it's more beneficial with some students than others. A better test of known is if they can use it spontaneously in the writing without help.
traci - I sometimes try to guide my lesson to a specific word that I know we need to work on.
Mary K&1 - During the reading of the new book you can do "Taking Words Apart" if the situation pops up
traci - You can also clap words and stretch them with a rubber band
Kate - Rache, I think that is probably what M.C. means.
Mary K&1 - And it is a form of taking words apart that has been practiced during Making and Breaking in the past
tyylee - Yes Mary, I need to remember to make those analogies while reading the new book.
Katydid/CA. - tyylee--it's easy to be tempted to do that. I found it helpful this year to think about the next strategy they need, and focus my MB there.
kenney - I am a Kindergarten teacher in CA, and all of my kids are to be reading at level 5. When should I begin teaching syllables?
tyylee - Do you ever plan your Make and Break using the fluency word of the day? I sometimes have two plans, one if they could write the fluency word and one if they could not.
Mary K&1 - Do you folks have the child actually break the known words and put them back together as opposed to you doing it - of course at first you have to model, but after they know what to do, do you have them do all the manipulations of the letters and chunks?
Katydid/CA. - Yeah Mary--otherwise I find they have trouble doing it on the run while reading.
tyylee - One hint that helped me was to stand behind the child or behind the mag. board so it is difficult to reach the letters. That way you are more likely to have the child do the manipulation.
Kate - I have the student do almost all the manipulating of the letters after modeling. I have to point out which parts are being changed.
Mary K&1 - tyylee, only if there is something that can be done with the word - some HF words don't have much that can be used at some stages - like 'the' - it is an early HF word, but not much can be done with it in M & B that the child will be able to understand
Mary K&1 - We have to remember to let the child do as much of the work as possible - we have to sometimes tie our hands and tape our mouths <gr>
tyylee - One thing that I sometimes forget to do is ask the child if they know another word that looks like or works like the words we have been working on.
Heather (MO) - kenney, I think you might consider teaching syllables as a way for children to "feel" the words. Clapping or stomping or other kind of kinesthetic movement may help your young ones.
Katydid/CA. - Have any of you generated principals of how words work with your Continuing Contact groups?
kenney - Heather (MO) should I do this with all the kids, or just those who know letter sounds?
Katydid/CA. - We did that 2 years ago, with examples of each and I find it helps me to think on the strategy level when thinking about MB
Mary K&1 - Katydid, if we have, it has been a while - care to share what your group has come up with?
Kate - We did generate some analogies in our TN class, but that has been some time ago.
tyylee - Katy, we have a handout with suggested sequence of Make and Break from easy to difficult. Is that what you meant?
Katydid/CA. - Don't have it in front of me MaryK, but things like words can begin with the same letter, letters have a sequence in a word, words change if you change onset or rime, you can add something to a word and make a new word, etc.
Mary K&1 - kenny, do it with all the kids, syllables are what we call chunks and chunks are easier to hear than individual letters - hearing the chunks should come first
Heather (MO) - kenney, I would think it would be best to do it with all the kids. Those who know the letter sounds will be able to do it independently, and those who don't can watch you and learn from your model.
Katydid/CA. - We generated a list of about 10 principals with examples of each. I keep it up at my station to refer to.
KK - Kenny, after clapping discuss would that be a long word or a short word. Locate in text, frame it and ask were you right? "Yes, it is a long word"
Mary K&1 - Sounds good Katydid, I should give that more thought
Katydid/CA. - Yeah, it's been very useful and it helps to have other RR teachers to generate with.
Katydid/CA. - Another good source for those is Word Matters.
Mary K&1 - Katydid, are you a TL?
Katydid/CA. - No, but this is my 7th year. Don't have time to be a TL
Heather (MO) - Katydid, can you tell me more about Word Matters? My staff is thinking of studying the text as a book review.
Kate - Voices on Word Matters is also a very good book.
darthy/RR/AL - My TL showed me her "choo-choo" method with M & B
Mary K&1 - How many weeks into the program is every one?
Katydid/CA. - Yea it is Kate. Heather that's a very good book for book study of general staff. You can sure get into great discussions of how spelling is best taught.
darthy/RR/AL - I'm in 13th week, counting RAK
KK - 11 weeks
tyylee - We are on week 12, one student is flying and is in level 9, the other three are in level 6. How about you?
Kate - 10 weeks not counting RAK
Mary K&1 - I'm still having a hard time accepting the practice of counting a week even when there were zero lessons - like when the child is absent for a whole week or something else happens
KK - My students are on L 5 - 7
darthy/RR/AL - One on L-9, one on L-6, one on L-4, one had to go back to 3
tyylee - At what point, if ever do you use words known in reading but not yet on the known writing list?
Kate - Any suggestions for powerful make and break at level 6?
darthy/RR/AL - Yes, Mary, that bothers me. 2 of mine missed 10 days with chicken pox, doesn't seem fair
Mary K&1 - I just started week 10 today - one at 7, two at 5 and one at 4
Katydid/CA. - 15 wks, 1 discontinued, 1 L8/9, 1L5, 1 RAK L7/8
darthy/RR/AL - Use them almost daily in story writing, tyylee
tyylee - When, if ever, do you use these known in reading words for Make and Break?
Mary K&1 - Wow, Katy, discontinued at what level?
darthy/RR/AL - Kate, at L-6 you could be into ing, ed
Katydid/CA. - L16
darthy/RR/AL - tyylee, perhaps when you are working on a pattern EX -un, -at
KK - Kate, how about along, away, around
Mary K&1 - tyylee, that's a hard one, I have to see the words in writing first, I don't know - I should think about that
darthy/RR/AL - KK, do you fold a piece of paper with the a on left side, the long, way, round on the other side????
Mary K&1 - If a child knows 'play', then go from that to 'way' and then 'away'
tyylee - I was wondering how we would ever get to things like ch since it never occurs in the high frequency words, but the child can read the word chin.
KK - I've never heard that MB words must be used in writing first. The purpose is how words work and I didn't think writing had anything to do with it.
darthy/RR/AL - One of my students will discontinue after THanksgiving, I don't think the other 3 will make it - I've had peer visit, and TL three times
kinderkateSD - what level do you discontinue at?
Mary K&1 - if a child knows 'will' then you can go to 'chill' for ex.
tyylee - Mary, my TL was out today and said that my lesson, going from red to bed and then to ben and beg was not proper, it was two steps and we should stick to one step per lesson. What do you think.
Katydid/CA. - kinderkate, this time of year L12 is acceptable where we are.
darthy/RR/AL - tyylee, depends on the CHILD, one might be able to 'hold' that idea, others might be confused
Mary K&1 - I think that she is right, I think that the GB says something about 'on another day' to move to the changing of the ending
darthy/RR/AL - KK, our first wave must test out on TEst Book 7, be on text level 10=12
Katydid/CA. - I agree darthy--that's my TL's favorite saying--"It depends"
darthy/RR/AL - Mary, 2nd wave, who to pick up, any roaming changes
kinderkateSD - To show that I like using a whole chunk in the middle. Like 'an'. For several lessons we work on changing beg letter:fan, man, can etc. Then we go to and, ant. Few days later talk about how we can make words putting a letter in front or in back. Then go to a word like pants, or band.
tyylee - kk, What ???? Test book 7 equals text level 10-12??? Haven't heard that before, how about anyone else.
Mary K&1 - darthy, I don't understand - do you mean is ITK different with 2nd round kids?
KK - I have but usually my kids go out on about the same level they are reading on
kinderkateSD - Katy look at darthy's message about levels. Katy, when you said L12 did you mean test out on L12 or be in L12 during lessons?
tyylee - Kinder, thanks, I will try that
kinderkateSD - With us Mary, first round should test out at L10 and second round at L14.
darthy/RR/AL - Our Ohio GUidelines say TEst out on Test book 7 or above, should be reading on TEXT books levels 10-12
kinderkateSD - But I think our levels are High.
Katydid/CA. - Test out on L12 test booklet Nov. thru Jan. --that's what we shoot for . L10 min. or a self extending system is not usually in place.
Mary K&1 - We have to have ours test out at level 12 for first round and 16 for second
kinderkateSD - I think that sounds reasonable darthy. Where do we get these guidelines.
Mary K&1 - Usually kids are reading at least two levels above where they test out
darthy/RR/AL - Katy, that is not in my guidelines, BUT, a few schools with a 'brighter clientele' shoot for the higher levels you mentioned
kinderkateSD - I have found that also, Mary,.
Mary K&1 - I think it should depend upon where the "average" child in the class is - that is different from place to place
darthy/RR/AL - kinder, our guidelines came through the TEacher trainer, DR. Joe Yukish, author of FIshing
Katydid/CA. - We're a Title 1 school. Our TL says it makes no difference
kinderkateSD - Of course REAL RR - as outlined in the guidebook, doesn't use the test. It is the US that always pushes testing.
kinderkateSD - I will check that out. Thanks, darthy.
Mary K&1 - kinderkate, you got that right - we do things a bit differently here in the States - because of the on going research
darthy/RR/AL - WHat I meant Mary, was on 2nd wave, do we HAVE to stay with our original waiting list, or check with 1st grade teachers to find 'most needy'
KK - Look at the stanines corresponding to text levels and fall ,winter, spring. Refer to stanine 5 as average and that will tell you the trl at discontinuing. However, a self correction rate , fluency, and a self extending system must be considered.
Mary K&1 - darthy, I see, we don't go with the first screening, I ask the classroom teachers who are their lowest and then test those and then pick the losest from there
kinderkateSD - Talking about ongoing studies, our district is doing a 2 year study on RR to see if it is valid - and if RR should be continued. Anyone else have something like that going on in you distsrict?
Katydid/CA. - that's what I do too Mary K
Katydid/CA. - Oh yes kinder. RR is being attacked all over.
darthy/RR/AL - my district looks at our yearly statistics EVERY year
Mary K&1 - I'm still pushing for our district to move to full implimentation - I had a School Board member observe a lesson today - I hope something comes of it
KK - My partner and I had to do a longitudinal study and our records are updated every year with Ohio Proficiency Test scores
kinderkateSD - When do you take your program kids, am or pm?
Mary K&1 - We update and turn in our longitutinal studies every year
darthy/RR/AL - Good luck, Mary and kinderkate, they always gripe about the money, can't seem to see long term benefits
Mary K&1 - PM for me
kinderkateSD - We have always sent in the scan forms and all, but this is different.
Katydid/CA. - Ours too, yearly, but especially this year when the supt. husband (who is a textbook salesman) is pushing for a basal series.
darthy/RR/AL - AM, I've done both ways, and also a split schedule, benifits to each way
kinderkateSD - Oh, Katy - sounds like par for the course.
Mary K&1 - I have no choice, I teach Kindergarten in the AM
darthy/RR/AL - yep, Katydid, typical political game - they didn't tell us about the 'games' in college!!!!!!!
kinderkateSD - In CA we are going to be required to take more courses to get a reading certificate.
darthy/RR/AL - kinder, that will last just long enough for a shortage to kick in, then it will be kik
Mary K&1 - Well. I must go, Thanks all for coming - Next time we will have an open chat about whatever is on our minds. Hope to see you all then. Good night :o)
