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Kathleen - Well, Teachers.Net presents another of its mentoring support sessions, this time with our own Bob Reap leading a discussion about tapping the potential of Search Engines. Bob, thank you for being with us tonight:-)
Kathleen - Bob, what is the most important thing for us to know about search engines?
Bob R/CA - thank you for having me Kathleen :o)
Bob R/CA - Well, the most important thing to me is that you pick a good search engine that works for you, and then learn how to best use it
Kathleen - How do we know which is the best for us?
Bob R/CA - Well, chances are if it turns up what you're looking for nearly every time, it's a good fit for you
Bob R/CA - I like Infoseek (http://www.infoseek.com/ ) it works best for me
Kathleen - Do search engines specialize?
Bob R/CA - I can use Infoseek to find out nearly every piece of information available on the web, or at least that's how it feels - my success rate with Infoseek is about 98%
Bob R/CA - specialize? They all have their peculiarities, in how they rank and "spider" the pages, and how the syntax they prefer and so forth
Bob R/CA - there are certainly search engines that specialize for say kids, ruling out adult content for example
Barb E. 9/MI - Bob, in what other ways are they different? I usually have good luck with Yahoo
Bob R/CA - (ask Jeeves, N2H2 - the folks who created BESS, Yahooligans, etc)
Bob R/CA - Yahoo! is not actually a search engine in the strictest sense. It is a directory, compiled by humans, and not assembled through "spiders" which go out and visit the websites submitted for indexing
Mary K&1 - How important is it to know the Power search commands?
Bob R/CA - Yahoo! receives the most "hits" but for my money, Infoseek is a better tool
Kathleen - What are power search commands?
Bob R/CA - the search terms and syntax are VERY important to become familiar with - it is often the difference between stumbling in the dark and successful "data mining"
Kathleen - Bob, elaborate please on syntax, etc.
Bob R/CA - by power search she means the commands which override the standard word or phrase searching and tell the system to return p[ages based upon specific criteria
Kathleen - Bob, more on those commands to override...????
Bob R/CA - for example, if you visit the Infoseek page, there is a link listed very prominently near the search form box which leads you to search tips - this page specifies all of the special commands and syntax used with Infoseek'
Bob R/CA - you may be familiar with the phrase "boolean search" - this is what we're talking about here
Sandy/k/mo - which are the best (safest) to use with our students at school?
Bob R/CA - for example, say I want to find a page that has helicopter rotor information - standard boolean search syntax would suggest I enter "helicopter AND rotor" BUT THERE ARE OTHER VARIATIONS OF THIS
Bob R/CA - For safe ones to use at school, I understand that Yahooligans, Ask Jeeves, and the one from N2H2 are all "kid safe"
Kathleen - I use http://www.metacrawler.com/ lot
Ben - Bob could you walk us through the use of AND and OR to search for topics on Electricity and narrow down the scope to a specific topic on the use of digital circuits in transistors.
Sandy/k/mo - http://www.askjeeves.com is my favorite.. he does wonders for me
Bob R/CA - ok, to begin with, often boolean phrases are capitalized to set them apart from a search word
Bob R/CA - sometimes the search engine also wants you to use parentheses if the boolean string gets complex
Ben - What about the use of ""'s?
Bob R/CA - for example, if you want electricity in all your answers, but either "resistor" or "transistor" are of interest, you can use electricity AND (resistor OR transistor)
Ben - So you use ('s do define the exceptions!
Bob R/CA - the exact uses of the syntax generally vary from search engine to search engine, and you should become very familiar with the "tips" page usually linked to the search engine page
Kathleen - so AND is the boolean?
Bob R/CA - For example, with Infoseek, the use of quotes _requires_ the phrase to be right next to each other in the answer - e.g. "penny lane" won't find "I found a penny on the lane"
Kathleen - Mary, did you want to go for more information on the topic you opened?
Ben - but it would if "penny lane is the next street over" correct!
Mary K&1 - How important is it to know all of the power search terms besides AND & OR -- do they really give better results?
Kathleen - If anyone has a favorite search engine, just type in the url and it will be preserved in the transcript
Bob R/CA - This page is EXCELLENT for information about Infoseek: http://www.infoseek.com/Help?pg=HomeHelp.html
Kathleen - http://dogpile.com
Bob R/CA - Infoseek is very powerful because it uses a special patented technology for using natural language queries
Mary K&1 - How important is it to know all of the power search terms besides AND & OR, like Wild cards and Exclude -- do they give better results?
Bob R/CA - for example, if you search "what are the lyrics to Penny Lane?" you will get the answer right on the top
Bob R/CA - I would memorize the search terms for the engine you use most frequently. For example with Indfoseek, the plus sign and minus sign can require or exclude a word from the results page - this can dramatically increase the success of your search
Mary K&1 - So, they are important - Right?
Bob R/CA - they are
Kathleen - Do all search engines accept direct questions like that?
Bob R/CA - there are other tricks to Infoseek - for example, you can use url:teachers.net to find the pages that are hosted on a URL including "teachers.net"
Sandy/k/mo - http://www.askjeeves.com/
Bob R/CA - I don't think so, Kathleen, they might accept them, but Infoseek is uniquely successful with them
click - I heard that different search engines look for different things. Some for software, some done by people others just by computers. Is this true?
Michael/6GA - Does it make a difference if you ask" What are the lyrics to Penny Lane?" or "lyrics to Penny Lane" ?
Bob R/CA - This is true Click, Yahoo! for example is compiled mainly by humans - if you don't submit it to them, chances are it won't appear on their search engines. Others use "spiders" - computer web browsers which spider the web and gather information about pages submitted, and the pages linked to them, and so forth. This has a very high overhead and also requires repetitive spidering to keep them fresh, so not all of the search engines can compete like that
Bob R/CA - Michael, I believe it does, Infoseek at least is specifically tuned to look for interrogative words
click - Which are better for finding educational sites?
Bob R/CA - Click, there are search engines which filter for adult content, and others which feature educational sites, such as "ask jeeves" - it depends on your needs
Bob R/CA - (actually, I believe ask jeeves does both)
Michael/6GA - What is ask jeeves?
Barb E. 9/MI - With Infoseek, is it necessary to ask fully worded questions like you did with the "Penny Lane" lyrics question?
Bob R/CA - Ask Jeeves is "the fastest and easiest way to find information on the web" http://www.askjeeves.com/
Sandy/k/mo - which would be better to find lesson plans, primary
Bob R/CA - (their claim, not mine)
Bob R/CA - No Barb, it's not, but often it helps
Michael/6GA - Thanx, Bob, for the site URL!
Bob R/CA - To be honest I don't search often for lesson plans, but when I do I use Infoseek with a special query designed to find lesson plans
Bob R/CA - (note the plus sign doesn't show here) for example: "civil war" plus"lesson plans"
Bob R/CA - (switch the word plus for the symbol)
Michael/6GA - Is there a particular engine which does better with cultural/country information that may be useful for social studies research?
Bob R/CA - again, Michael, Inofseek queries can be tuned to find anything specific using the special operators
Kathleen - Bob, does Teachers.Net have a search feature? Also, how many people remember or know that we can use "look-up" over in the left frame? Bob, would you tell us about that?
Bob R/CA - Teachers.Net features three search engines, all search databases only on Teachers.Net - we don't spider other sites. One is a search engine of our site (the main) another searches our submitted lessons, and a third submitted teacher sites and commercial educational sites.
amy/OH - which search engine is good for 3rd and 4th graders to use?
Bob R/CA - the "look-up" link in the left will pull up a shortcut interface to Merriam Webster's on-line dictionary (I use it all the time) as well as shortcut to Infoseek and the Teachers.Net search engines
Bob R/CA - Amy, I have no direct experience there, but might suggest Ask Jeeves, Yahooligans, and the last one slips my mind
click - Which search engines filter adult sites?
susan/2nd/ny - ask jeeves uses Surf Watch as a filter
Bob R/CA - The makers of BESS offer a search engine that does that, as well as the Ask Jeeves site, Yahoolgigans - anyone offer any others?
click - Do you have to pay for SurfWatch?
susan/2nd/ny - You have to pay for it if you want it to filter for you...yes
Bob R/CA - I believe SurfWatch is a commercial product, but I have no experience with it
susan/2nd/ny - Bob...if you don't mind the interruption, I have it and don't like it
Bob R/CA - There is an upcoming special event here on September 25 with Parry Aftab on Internet Safety - I recommend all attend :o)
Bob R/CA - susan, you have surfwatch? What are the downsides?
Sandy/k/mo - susan why?
amy/OH - does anyone have a good site for US maps
susan/2nd/ny - There are several downsides...first...they block out good sites and you need to tell them not to...it is a pain
Kathleen - A Parent's Guide to the Internet would be a good resource for those who want to use the 'net with children
susan/2nd/ny - second...NOTHING is full proof...
Bob R/CA - (By the way, if anyone is blocked at school by BESS and you want to get Teachers.Net unblocked, you can speak with your system administrators - they can exclude sites from being filtered by BESS)
susan/2nd/ny - I am talking about in the classroom...should I continue?
Bob R/CA - yes
Bob R/CA - Amy, have you checked the US Gazetteer site? I think it's through the Census Office
amy/OH - we have Bess, it's a pain. It block a lot of sites that are fine
click - At school we have BESS, which also blocks out good sites, THE CHATROOM AT TEACHERS.NET!!!
Mary K&1 - I'm not one bit happy with BESS. They also filter out many good sites and won't budge when you ask them to reconsider.
Praline/3rd/LA - Why is Teachers.Net blocked by BESS?
susan/2nd/ny - OK...for starters...using a filter like Surf Watch actually encourages the smarter children to get around it...
amy/OH - do you guys have the bypass code. All schools should have a code. It's easy to use
susan/2nd/ny - Second...as I said before NOTHING is full proof and if teachers are not attentive and think that the kids are safe with surfwatch they can be in for a surprise
Sandy/k/mo - I agree.. we took ours off for the same reason
click - CHatrooms are blocked by BESS.
susan/2nd/ny - Parents and children need to be responsible for the actions...and sign an acceptable use policy
Barb E. 9/MI - Amy, you might try Map Quest
susan/2nd/ny - with known consequences...
Bob R/CA - US Gazetteer - Tiger Mapper: http://www.nwbuildnet.com/nwbn/mapservice.html
Mary K&1 - Bess isn't issuing a bypass code this year
susan/2nd/ny - This way, the school district and teacher cannot be help responsible...
click - No AMY, what do you mean bypass code?
Sandy/k/mo - We had a "nanny" on and they were still able to go to playboy somehow
Kathleen - FAQ's and more about Search Engines: http://www.cln.org/searching_faqs.html
susan/2nd/ny - I have IE as a browser and use that to filter...works better then surfwatch..I am in total control...don't want to hog the board so I'll be quiet....:-)
Bob R/CA - Susan, you know more about this than I, so feel free to share :o)
amy/OH - our tech super have us a code number to get around Bess. We go to bypass and type a code and pass word, select number on minutes we want to block Bess and you can get anything. They have a record of how often you use it though. We are checking to see i
sarahw/2/TX - I'm mad at Bess too, begged them to reconsider the T.net chatboard (I did NOT point out to them that I could access the primary board--tee hee!)
Mary K&1 - How do search engines deal with frames? Do they find them?
Praline/3rd/LA - susan,how do you filter with IE?
Kathleen - Ask ERIC: (great for Ed. research, articles, you can ask a question and real people research and get back to you in a couple of days with articles, etc. : http://ericir.sunsite.syr.edu/
Bob R/CA - Sarah, you can talk to your system administrators and they can unblock Teachers.Net
susan/2nd/ny - Yes I do Praline, and very successfully I might add
Mary K&1 - Do they find the information included in frames?
Barb E. 9/MI - ERIC is an excellent resource!
sarahw/2/TX - Thanks Bob-- I'll try that
Praline/3rd/LA - How do you do that susan?
susan/2nd/ny - Go to view Internet Options
susan/2nd/ny - Click on content
Mary K&1 - Thanks Bob, I didn't know that! Now I can get on my Tech's case!!
Bob R/CA - Mary, that answer may vary by the search engine - I predict they either check the frameset document for text/meta-tags, or the subsidiary frames, maybe both
susan/2nd/ny - Then to contant advisor...the rest is easy...follow the directions...idiot proof!
Praline/3rd/LA - Thanks susan. I don't need it but if my stepdaughter was here ....
Kathleen - So, we should now practice what we have learned
Bob R/CA - any other questions re search engines, internet safety, etc?
Barb E. 9/MI - Good idea, Kathleen! I want to look up some song lyrics, and I'm gonna try Infoseek!
Sandy/k/mo - I have a workshop I am giving the 18th.. will include this
Kathleen - It is now 10 pm, we must thank Bob Reap for being so helpful and patient while helping us understand the importance of using Search engines to their greatest potential
Praline/3rd/LA - Barb there is a site for song lyrics...
Sandy/k/mo - thank you Bob.. :-)
Barb E. 9/MI - THANK YOU, MISTER BOB!!!
Barb E. 9/MI - I know, Praline, but they didn't have it. 8-(
click - I'm presenting at TCEA in Houston SaturdaySept. 19th on how to make multimedia projects with kids.
Mary K&1 - Thanks Bob! I've learned some very important things!!
Praline/3rd/LA - Thank you Bob
click - Will use this information on how to find Internet info faster for projects! THANKS
Kathleen - Goodnight, and thank you all!!
Bob R/CA - Bye all :o)
