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Janice - Is there a specific topic tonight?
Kgirl - Well I am wondering if anyone has any ideas for working with students with ocd
Nittany - Hello- I have a question on OCD too- the legal implications for injury to staff/other kids in an inclusion classroom?
msdtchr - I do not have any experience with OCD
Nittany - How about a kid who just destroys everything in his path when ever things don't go his way?
max - what is the compulsion???
max - or is it conduct disorder???
Nittany - Being told "No" on anything- parents refuse to have further testing, medication, theraputic staff assistance, has IEP for educational concerns.
max - how old is the child nittany
Nittany - Kindergarten!!
max - the school can push for further testing, go into court if parent refuses...also, if the K student hits a teacher, the teacher "can" press charges...it usually gets the parents attention
max - nittany, i teach pre-k emotionally handicapped/self-contained.....they are really "sick" kids
Nittany - Penna. has some restrictions on suspensions- takes a long time to go to court- school district is proud of Inclusion- thinks it works- I am not his teacher- but am the Union rep- I have a different grade (also inclusion)
max - i hear you....all children have the right to a "safe environment"....some kids just can't make it in inclusion
max - i have 6 students and 3 adults in my room
Nittany - His teacher has the kids trained to line up and go to the room next door- when the books etc start flying.
Nittany - She has 25 kids and an 85 yr. old Granny who helpds out in the morning- spec. ed teacher comes in 40 minutes a day- spec ed aide 2-3 times a week for 40 minutes.
max - she is doing right to have the "room clear" in place
max - wish I could show you the photo my assistants took of me yesterday at the end of the day....to record my terrible swelling from a kick I got from a 5 year old
max - my classroom is where they put students like what you are describing here
Nittany - Child was on meds- but mom took him off them a few months ago- now teacher could use some. Regular ed teachers just are not trained for this kind of kids- and our spec ed staff is learning support trained- we need an on site psycologist.
max - check with your county to see if they don't have placements for such children....our school is the only school in our district with a class like mine,,,,,we bus from all over the district
max - the class is most likely too large for the child.....does the school have a "diagnosis" on the child
max - what were the meds for?
Nittany - We have an SED class (socially emotional disturbed- or whatever the new term is- with in the district- parents won't go for adjusting IEP.
max - if he is just hyper activie (ADHD) a good behavioral program would work, if its more than that....then the SED may be the direction
max - parents would be in denial at this age
max - SED is not a pleasant setting to see your child go into
max - filing charges would push some action...maybe court action
Nittany - Mom says "Nobody will touch my child"- so anyone trained in passive restraint is out of the picture- are trying though for a Theraputic support person from the county- will have to go over mom's head- and spec. ed. director- who thinks inclusion is great!
max - i would feel totally dumb filing charges on a 5 year old....but if that is the only way to get the child services needed, then that is important
max - has the child hit anyone yet
max - it is progressive to have inclusion, but if a child isn't reacting to a behavioral modification plan, observations need to be made by the sp ed director
max - or their staff.....as it would be here
max - oup problem here is lack of inclusion
Nittany - He hits the other kids every chance he gets- bit spec ed teacher- My concern- is keeping my kindergarten teacher out of litigation from these parents- or other parents.- not easy being union rep in this district.
max - the other parents have the right to a safe environment for their children
Addie /MO - hi everyone
Nittany - So far- other parents have not called superintendent because they don't want to get the teacher or school in trouble (She is a wonderful teacher)
max - teacher needs to e-mail cc letters, etc requesting the child be evaluated....keep documentation that teacher has brought safetyconcerns to the right people
max - hi addie!!!!!!
max - parents can make a lot of things happen!!!!!
Addie /MO - i am not sure that a parent can say "no one can touch my child" if the child is going to harm others. i would think that a person trained in cpi would have to be allowed to move the child. the staff has to be able to protect the other children
Addie /MO - can you send the kid home when he gets violent?
Nittany - Thanks Max- will update Kindergarten teacher tomorrow- you have confirmed what we are trying to get in place- Good night.
max - they do room clear addie, i was in a district a few years ago that stopped touching the kids and doing the clears....due to some law suites
Carla - Hello Nittany...
max - hi carla
Carla - hi max
Nittany - Carla- it's time for you to go to sleep!
Addie /MO - did the school actually lose the suits? why would a school get sued for doing a room clear?
max - i got turned into the super this fall for restraining a child (parent cam in the room at end of day) he was about to hurt others/self....and its still hanging over me
Carla - yes, it is......
max - no addie, got sued for restraining a child....ots of differences from one area of our state to the next
Carla - this is the first time I ever came into a chat on teacber net....
Vic - hi all
max - hi vic and meesh
meesh - hi everyone
Addie /MO - we have people in our school who are cpi trained and they are allowed to restrain children if necessary.
Addie /MO - hi carla
max - welcome to teachers.net carla, it is a fantastic community
Addie /MO - hi vic and meesh
Carla - hello everyone...
Nittany - Ok- I'm still here- we had a teacher lose her job for restraint- and Carla- I got here first- you are spying on me!
meesh - any teachers in New Jersey
max - we restrain, but it is always risky business now a days
Carla - I have been on Teacher Net for a few years, just not in chat. Nittany and I work together....
Addie /MO - was that teacher certified to do restraint?
max - carla, do be certain you go into the regular chat room, we are like a big family, wonderful
Vic - boy did I have the day from ___ today. Had to deal with principal and head of human resources telling me that my daughter who was subbing as a 1 on 1 associate can no longer work in my room, no even volunteer in my room. Nepotism you know. I love policy. The mother is irate! She has seen the job that my daughter has done with her son in 3 days and can't believe the difference.
Nittany - Yes- she was- but there were other issues- restraint got her in the end.
Addie /MO - i can see that it is risky, and i personally dont restrain children, but we have people who are certified to do this and it is my understanding that as long as they follow their procedures, restraint is allowed
Carla - OK....I must take out the garbage since I am a widow this week...goodbye all! I must go to bed. We have TWo meeting in the morning Nittany
Vic - We too are trained in Mandt in our district. We can restrain, as long as there is documentation and are trained.
Nittany - Okay boss- thanks Max- Goodnight
Carla -
max - it is allowed at our school addie, but always risky.....I am certified....and you should see the baseball sized lump on my left shin from a failed first attempt to restrain a 5 year old who was throwing a heaving wooded chair from over his head yesterday
Addie /MO - what would happen if the child were just suspended everyday that he got violent. even if he has an iep, it would push the district to do a functional behavioral analysis.
max - that is true addie
Addie /MO - max, what happened to the kid after he was removed?
max - he went into the lock down secured time out while I went to the nurse (and later the ER) and he got one day suspension
Addie /MO - obviously that child has some very dangerous behaviors
max - suspension for him isn't the answer, it is a reward
Vic - Our principal just had to restrain a student on Monday. The associate trained in Mandt was trying to tell him that he was putting the child in jeopardy. He had him face down in a pillow with his head in the pillow. My associate was bitten, not listened too, is on antibiotics and has to get Hepatitus shots.
Addie /MO - but, at least when he is suspended he is not disrupting the learning of everyone else
max - he is a sick little boy, parent still in denial, and no dx yet....hopefully he will get something that will help; there is a darling little boy inside of him
max - vic, i was bitten three times last year....did they do the AIDS test???
Addie /MO - yes, the child needs some help, but i wonder if it is beyond the scope of the school to provide?
max - oh addie, you need to come see my classroom, I have six very much like him
Addie /MO - it was dangerous to put that childs face in a pillow, he could have suffocated and the principal could have been charged with manslaughter or murder
max - mom is taking him to doctors finally.....she trust me and is about to admit there is something bad wrong
Addie /MO - max, are you in a spec. ed class or a regular class
Vic - Max, I guess that they probably didn't think about that either. I had her call the ER back to check on the Hepatitis, I guess I better have her check for AIDS too. That was a big duh on my part. As you say, there are good children inside, they've just seen too much at their early ages.
max - addie, have a pre-k emotionally handicapped class, self-contained; raito of 6 students and 3 adults
max - vic, did the skin break???
Addie /MO - that is good that the mom is going to have him evaluated medically. maybe they will find an answer for him
Vic - Addie, how well my associate and I both know. She kept trying to tell him and even told him to go get me, also trained in Mandt Restraint, he refused, he knew best.
max - they have mentioned bi-polar
Vic - Max, yep
max - in our state we don't have the right to "know" vic, but if we get bitten or exposed, we can request the child have blood work done, its up to the parent....
Addie /MO - that is a high level of supervision and a very specialized classroom. if he cannot be successful there, then he must need medical help
Vic - With our student from Monday, they involved DHS and he will now be attending a day treatment program. He came back to school today and totally trashed the guidance counselors office.
max - he needs medical help....
Addie /MO - bipolar sounds like a possibility. i had a child with bipolar disorder one year and she was mean to other children and sometimes hurt herself. she wasnt as violent as the student you describe though
max - once they get into that reptalian brain vic, they are difficult to deal with
Vic - The mother finally said that he did need to see his doctor again as the adderal must not be working
max - this little guy is soooooo angry....play thereapist just started working with him...suspects he witnesses violence
Addie /MO - there is good information on childhood bipolar diorder on http://www.bipolarchild.com (at least i think that is the address) the site is by demitri papolos (sp) a well known authority on childhood bipolar
Vic - Our is suspected of being violently abused. What these little people have to deal with shouldn't happen to our worst enemies.
max - thanks addie, i jsut opened it to read a little later
max - yes, each year I have documented sexually abused kids
Vic - Max, have you found that the state doesn't do much with these types of cases?
Addie /MO - kids that are so young and so violent...you wonder how that can happen in such a short time. you know that they have been through so much to be in that condition
Vic - We have 16 little reg. ed. first graders this year that all act this way. Some have seen their parents shot to death, others live with grandparents as parents don't care about them, others have seen the use of drugs on a regular basis, and one found their parent dead in the bathtub, a needle still in her arm.
Addie /MO - vic, i think they have such a hard time proving sexual abuse...around here a big problem is lack of foster homes too. things have to be really bad before they will pull a child. and then i am amazed when the kids are returned to the households and little to nothing has been done to remedy the problem
max - vic, i just think it is soooo much more widespread than we can even imagine
Vic - I agree
max - yikes, vic
Addie /MO - max, i think that is the scary thing...what is going on in many households and we have no idea what the kids are going through
max - that is why i choose to teach the most severe classes, at least i have a smaller number to deal with...
Addie /MO - oh vic, how awful for those kids. they have been through a lifetime's worth (or more) of problems at their tender age
max - addie, over the past ten years I have learned to be able to identify a child that has been sexually abused....I am almost alway right wehn I go check files
Addie /MO - max, that is a point. in regular classrooms, we deal with some very troubled kids too and have everyone else to deal with also
max - they usually never get over it
Vic - I made a deal with myself back many years ago that I too would work with the toughest and that for those 7 hours, they were going to be fed, clean and happy.
max - yep.....mine love scrambled eggs and pancakes. lol
Addie /MO - that is so sad, max. i am sure that with the population that you service, you see more than your fair share of this
Addie /MO - well, gotta go! L8r!
max - addie, most all of my kids have been....not as many this year for I am not in a SED class, just EH----but 50% of my class is SED and they just don't recognize it
max - vic, where are you, florida here
Vic - Iowa here
max - what age do you work with, i did high school, low functioning, non-verbal autistic last year
Vic - Well Max, I better go. I'm taking a day off tomorrow. After all the crap today with the principal and Human Resources director about my daughter not working one on one with an autistic little 6 year old, I'm exhausted and upset. I teach 1st-4th multicat
max - I don't blame you....autistic is my new love, ever heard of Verbal Behavior
max - by Partington and Sundberg
Vic - that's a new one to me. I've been in this business since 77 and I don't recall that name at all
max - hope to see you again....see,s we have similair interest
max - nite
max - verbal behavior is a little like Lovass
max - it was designed for parents to do inhome programs
max - i had a 15 year old boy last year that talked for the first time in his life
Vic - Not only similar interests but same caring for those really special kiddos
max - great program
Vic - Way to go Max! Good for you. Feels good when that happens doesn't it
max - see ya again....come to the main chat room, I don't frequent too often during school year, hubby complains that I am always doing schoool stuff, lol
max - sure does, and this year I am doing a 2 hour a day intensive in home theraphy with a 4 year old autistic child, he is really doing great....
max - hi BB
BB - hello - i'm a rookie, bear with me.
max - welcome to teachers.net, you have found a great room!!!
BB - I'm an early intervention teacher using Phonographix. Any comments?
Vic - k, my little 6 year old is verbal which has amazed me tremendously and my daughter has really brought him out of his shell, well until she was told she can't come back. Not because of anything she did, but because of Board policy.
max - vic, doesn't suprise me at all, i love to teach, but the politics is about to send me packing....
max - what is phonographiz???
Vic - I am leaving!!!! after today and the bs. We are headed to NC over spring break next weekend and checking on jobs there. I turned down 69 jobs there in August. We just have to decide where we want to settle.
max - choose good vic, and be happy witht he physical room as well...I got a bumber this year and its a pain
Vic - You bet, that's why we are going now, before I commit to anyone.
Vic - I will be taking a pay cut, but my husband can make about triple if he can find a job as well.
max - ahhh, that is good.......what is your hubby's field, we follow mine's job around now that our own kids are grown and gone
max - h sug
sugartoy - is this the room for special education?
max - yes it is, sug
sugartoy - good
max - where are you from and what do you teach; florida here...pre-k EH/SC
Vic - He's a computer whiz!!!!! IS Administrator. That is another reason we can look now as well. Baby is now 19 and living with boyfriend. Even though we have both been born, raised, and wed here in Iowa, there's nothing here for us either anymore.
sugartoy - arkansas, secondardy self=contained
max - go for it....its a big change, but you are at a good stage in your life to do it
sugartoy - it's been a long day, sorry for the mistakes
max - what area sug....
Vic - I teach 1st-4th self-contained multicat. Mostly MD and Autistic darlings this year
sugartoy - i teach specifically transitional skills our kids need in a self-contained high school classroom
max - transistion to work??????
sugartoy - that, plus living skills
max - I dd the same last year sug
BB - phonographix is a reading program developed by the McGuinness clan out of Orlanda. I've trained as an Orton Gillingham tutor (tedious, time consuming, too many rules). It's a decoding program, nothing new, I think it just presents to the kids in a simpler way. Lots of word construction through blending. Lots of segementing, auditory processing.
max - I would love to have had your traiing BB.....
sugartoy - but that causes problems with my kids since their auditory skills are lacking
max - do you use picture supports??
max - I would think Madeline Gray's Social Stories would be good for you also
sugartoy - yes, i do, but their language skills are so horrible, it doesn't work very well with them
max - how horrible, can they carry on a simple conversation
BB - if their auditory processing it weak, it can be developed through lots of repetition. I used "sound pictures" which are the actual letters of the alphabet. We present all the common sounds of the alphabet first, then move on to the advanced code. But first and foremost, lots and lots of practice with auditory processing. But I don't use key pictures (like /a/ as in apple)?
sugartoy - the majority of them can't
max - instead of the key pictures, what do you use??
max - suga, are they autistic??
sugartoy - actual hands on examples
sugartoy - 55% of them are
max - such as??????
max - i taught a 15 year old boy to talk for the first time in his life last year.....can be done
sugartoy - coat is shown for actual coat pronuonciation
BB - I guess you get to the point, where you have to decide to move on without good auditory processing. In the initial stages, we just show the sound picture for A and say, "this is the sound picture for /a/". I work with mostly LD, some mild MH. All have made progress, some quicker than others of course. One of my own daughters in the toughest case I've had.
bette/tx - hello all..hey max need to ask a question about daughter
max - i wish i had access to something like htat sug, my little ones this year are just not learning to read....this week is the ifrst that they have been able to identify some of their letters
sugartoy - i know it can max, but the school has to be willing to help us with the material needed too
sugartoy - what grades do you work with max?
max - true sugartoy, but the program I use you can get and get trained without the schools support...
max - last year highschool sug, this year pre-K
bette/tx - my daughter wants to do Orchestra in 6 th grade but her doctor told me that would be to hard for her to read the music....
sugartoy - where?
bette/tx - max but she really wants to do it...can we have modification for orchesra?
bette/tx - or an IEP?
bette/tx - i hate to say NO to her as she really wants to do it
BB - The Jolly Phonics program is great as well. It includes hand actions to represent each sound. Also has a CD with common childrens' songs adapted for each sound. The Ks and 1s love it.
max - has she ever tired to read music (max could NEVER learn to read it, all 7 years of piano lessons...can't play a thing)
bette/tx - max no never played a thing...and i can not read music so no help...but her dad did play in the band from 4th-12 grade
max - who makes Jolly Phonics??
bette/tx - max we have her ARD april 9 for 6th grade ...that would be a good time to discuss i guess?
max - how about giving her private lessons now, let her see, she will be soooo upset if she gets into orchestra and can't do it
bette/tx - max ..some are offered during the summer i think....good thougth...
max - modifications would be difficult for music...you have to keep up and fight for your spot
bette/tx - max ..i understand..i hate to say this but i think playing an insturment will be to hard on her
BB - good question -- just had a look around home office, nothing here. I can check at school tomorrow. I'm sure they're got a web-site, you might be able to find them through a web search. Max - what reading program do you use?
max - bette, sounds like she is having a happy year this year
bette/tx - they are offering office or nurses aide and that would be good..
max - would be hard on me bette.....
bette/tx - max yes happy but challanging for her ..harder work
bette/tx - brb phone
bette/tx - thanks max
max - but she needs to discover what she is wanting to do...or she won't be happy about it
max - lol BB, caught up in the political mess that goes on and i am new to the district....i have nothing...finallly got SRA's Language for Learning about 6 weeks ago...would be suing Reading Mastery when they offer it
sugartoy - i have got to go, how often does the room open up for us?
max - oops, using SRA
max - ot certain, but it should be posted..and we can leave tha mster room and go to chatroom 2 anytime we want
max - I am falling asleep at the key board....got tramatized yesterday (kickd bad in the lower shin) and it has whipped me out...
max - see yall sooon,
sugartoy - i am glad, now that i know that i have somewhere to go for help, thanks
BB - this was interesting, I'll be back.
sugartoy - bye max
