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Ran/TN - I am glad to see everyone joining us tonight. Our guest is Jonathan Schiff. He is an attorney and we are discussing legel Issues concerning Special Ed.
Mae - so what are the legal issues in special education?
JonSchiff - Well, the legal issues cover just about every aspect of education
janelle - What responsibilities does a public school have to students who are homeschooled in the way of an initial evaluation/special education services?
Ran/TN - Such as IDEA and how it effects us as teachers.
JonSchiff - curriculum, discipline,teaching methods etc
JonSchiff - as to Janelle ? thelea (local education agency has the responsibility generally regardles of where the education occurs
janelle - is the school required to provide transportation to the school and home for the services?
JonSchiff - So I would imagine in the homeschooling case the local district would still be responsible for evaluation and provision of special education service. However, I am not certain if any special rules apply
JonSchiff - What do you mean transportation where
janelle - does the school have to bus the student for the services?
JonSchiff - I would say yes.
JonSchiff - But you have to remember that it all depends on what is on the IEP
janelle - really?
janelle - what if the IEP is a straight speech eligibility?
Jadine - I am a special ed teacher in Ontario. I am also interested in whether homeschoolers link up to any of your schools.
JonSchiff - Are you asking if the school would have to pay for the speech therapist"s transportation costs
janelle - no, if the school has to bus the student to the school to get the speech therapy
JonSchiff - From that info I would say yes
Relean - Can a child receive both basic skills and special education instruction?
JonSchiff - In what context ?
janelle - Ok. I don't want to hog time, but if someone else doesn't have another, or when there is time, I have another question
JonSchiff - Also if anyone wishes they can e-mail me at another time with ?s
Relean - One period of math basic skills instruction and two periods of language special education instruction.
Relean - As an example
JonSchiff - Yes. The special education is what is included on the iep, the rest would consist of the regular instruction.
JonSchiff - Unless you are talking about basic skills as some kind of remediation which could be special education or not
Relean - The basic skills would be considered reg ed?
Deirdre - While a child is going through the process of being evaluated, are there any special provisions in the law for that child?
janelle - OK Jon here is my question: does a school need to automatically evaluate a student if if a referral is made by a parent? or at least look at an evaluation? My spcial ed director is demanding that ALL referrals go through the pre-referral process before being considered for an evaluttion....
JonSchiff - Yes. For one there can be intervention based services. Also a child being evaluated may be considered handicapped for puposes of disciplinary exclusions
JonSchiff - Intervention is now contained in the federal regulations
DJM/SPED/KY - Janelle....I have a referral right now from a parent .....all interventions from regular ed. teachers are working.....I don't see a need to continue the eval. process if there is not a problem.....
JonSchiff - I have had that situation many times. Here is what I think
Relean - DJM - don't you think that parents see things that a reg ed teacher might miss?
DJM/SPED/KY - Deirdre.....I have completed a remedial plan before to cover the child during the eval. process....not sure if anything is in the regs. saying you have to though....
Ran/TN - You ask very good questions Janelle.
JonSchiff - I think you have to use common sense. too often referrals are ignored even though the child is having problems. Sometimes a professional has made the referral. If the child is doing well but the parent insists you might want to consider requesting a due process hearing. That's probabably the legally correct response. More practically probably you should wait until the parents request one
JonSchiff - Yes it is possilbe the school is missing something. However, special education need only be provided to students who need intervettion to benefit from educational services.
janelle - Thanks Jon, my problem is that my special ed director, (I feel and others do as well) is trying to be some great gate keeper and deny as many services as possible...and make so many hoops that people get tired and give up...there have been some wonderful parent referrals, and kids that should be evaluated ASAP, but our director is a dork...sorry for the cadyness
JonSchiff - to Answer DJM SPED I believe the regs now do address intervention specifically. Contact me later and I'll look it up
DJM/SPED/KY - Relean....yes I do....but in my area we have the problem of parents wanting to get a SSI check
JonSchiff - Janelle. That is a very common problem. In the cases I have I just insist
janelle - any ideas of how to get my director more in compliance and not to keep upsetting parents?
Relean - DJM - common problem!
DJM/SPED/KY - Janelle.....its a committee decision anyway.....not a director of spec. ed. decision.....
JonSchiff - I am not sure having the school identify a disability means qualification for SSI
DJM/SPED/KY - Jon...not its not but its a big step around here......
JonSchiff - As far as getting the director more in compliance. Do you like your job?
Relean - After you have the qualification you can apply for the SSI
janelle - to get SSI you genearlly have to have an MR or EBD label or Autism
janelle - or hearing/visually impaired
Kidbiz - It is our policy to evaluate all children whose parents request it.....just good p.r. as far as I am concerned. We have had little problem with this policy.
Relean - sorry, didn't mean qualification - meant classification
JonSchiff - Remember also that the regs changed recently for children making it much more difficult although that is not my area of expertise
Mae - i have a problem with thsoe families that refuse to accept that their child does not have a disability.. we provide so much service, that whent he child progresses, the parents are upset about losing service
JonSchiff - Kidbiz--did you idientify all those kids?
Deirdre - If a parent has an I.E.P. and during the annual review, it has been suggested that they have reduction in services (for example going from an I.E.P to just speech therapy) but the parents do not sign the agreement to have a reduction in services, is the c
Kidbiz - no.....not all of the kids qualified for special ed services.....
Mae - we eval at parent request also.. PR is improtant!
janelle - can a parent who is denied an evaluation seek out an independent evaluation and if the child is eligible/has a disability then send the bill to the parent?
JonSchiff - If the parties disagree then either can request due process
Deirdre - cont. Is the child still covered by the original I.E.P.?
MaryJane - Why do special ed teachers take the child, work with the child, and not give the parents updates on progress?
JonSchiff - Janelle. Repeat question
JonSchiff - Deirdre--Yes the child is covered by the IEP in effect until it changes or the parties agree otherwise
janelle - Yes, I know that, but what if a parent is sick of waiting for the school to evaluate so they get an independent evaluation, is the school responsible for the cost of the evaluation because they were dragging their heels and making parents jump through hoops or just saying "no"?
Kidbiz - We are required to update parents on student progress at least as often as regular students receive report cards.
DJM/SPED/KY - Generally we accept all referrals.....but my question is.....HOW DO KIDS GET TO BE 10TH OR 11TH GRADERS BEFORE A REFERRAL IS DONE????????
JonSchiff - Yes. And if the school disagrees it is supposed to request due process. Otherwise the school is responsible for the independent evaluation
Ran/TN - They have gone unoticed by previous teachers.
JonSchiff - Because the system is a idiot
JonSchiff - that was for DJM and you may quote me
janelle - I'm going to remind my STUPID director of that next time she blows a parent off
DJM/SPED/KY - Ran.....but if they can't read as a junior in high school i am sure they couldn't read in elementary school!!!!!
Ran/TN - I liked your answer Jonathan better then mine.
meeha/ece/tx - Does not IDEA specify that when a request for evaluation is made -- in writing -- that evaluation MUST be done within 30 school days of the request -- following the meeting to request the eval or necessary papers signed, of course?
Ran/TN - Many of these kids go unnoticed because they either hdo not cause disrutions in the classroom and/or have developed statagies to mask their disability.
DJM/SPED/KY - Ran.....that is true....my husband who is now 36 yrs old is dyslexic.....I picked up on it myself from being a teacher.....his mom wondered why she was never told....i told her it was because he never caused a problem.....he tried and did his best.....
School Mom - If you have a child that is a discipline problem and goes to time out. How do you serve him in Special ed for that scheduled time?
Kidbiz - Also, if the referral process is complicated and requires a lot of paperwork, some teachers just don't bother to refer kids.
Ran/TN - It happens to all of us at some time or another.
Relean - Ran - that is very sad - that a child has to cause disruptions for a regular ed teacher.
JonSchiff - Well it depends on how long the time out is
meeha/ece/tx - school mom -- is 'time out' a 'in school suspension' type of setting?
DJM/SPED/KY - Kidbiz.....that is very much true....and they feel that if little Johnny didn't place then Susie surely won't either so why bother to waste their time....
School Mom - He may go in at 10:00 and have to stay for a couple of hours, but that's during his math sp. ed. time.
JonSchiff - suspensions are not time out. A suspension is an exclusion from school. For purposes of the statute, any exclusion adding up to more than 10 days in any school year is a change of placement
School Mom - We have TOR in another classroom and ISS is in the cubby hole area of the computer lab.
Relean - After 10 days the district has to provide home instruction
Mae - time out for several hours? How old is the child?
janelle - what do you do when you have a student is completely out of control and is ADHD, and the only thing in his history that had ever helped was meds and his mother refuses? can you go to due process? this little guy is REALLY bright and somehow the mom thinks he's just naughty, etc....the thing is he CAN'T focus for more than a couple of minutes...we've tried most everything, out (stupid) director now wants to make him emotionally disturbed on paper to put him in a special school...
School Mom - the child is eleven years old
Kidbiz - School Mom, how often do the 2-hour time outs occur?
DJM/SPED/KY - Relean.....it doesn't necessarily have to be at home....can be in any alternative setting (public library, sheriff's office, etc.)
janelle - the child is in 3rd grade
Mae - 2 minutes for every year of age. what is he learning from several hours of time out?
JonSchiff - Relean--that is only if the IEP team has made a determinatin first that the disabilityt is not related to the handicap or the parent agrees to the change. Otherwise the school may not suspend for more than ten days
Relean - DJM - I know - we just say that the child is on "home instruction"
JonSchiff - sorry I am typing too fast and making typos
School Mom - He has moods during the day that cause him to be very rude to everyone and goes to TOR. This week a lot.
DJM/SPED/KY - Janelle.....you can file medical neglect charges on the parent through DSS.....
Mae - as for adhd.. adhd in and of itself is not a disability.. it had\s to have a direct educationasl impact... we are not doctors, andf cannot require medication for children..
JonSchiff - If he is missing significant instruction because of being excluded you should ask for a case conference
School Mom - This child is on a reg. school discipline plan, not spe.ed.
janelle - REFER HIM!!!
Mae - i agree with jon.
Mae - why refer him?
Ran/TN - Often the real reason for parents refusal to medicate thier child is the cost.
DJM/SPED/KY - School Mom....if this child is severe enough to need that type of time outs i would suggest a referral......
School Mom - We have had an inital meeting since he arrived, and he goes to all sp. ed classes now.
janelle - insurance will cover...
Kidbiz - School Mom, has this child been evaluated for emotional problems?? Has he had a functional analysis of behavior?
Mae - i disagree.. i am concerned about the meds we are putting in our children.
DJM/SPED/KY - Ran.....there are too many programs out there to cover the meds for that to be an excuse.....
Ran/TN - I agree with DJM.
Mae - good question kidbiz...
JonSchiff - I am getting lost here. I think the discussion got ahead of me
School Mom - I'm not sure.I am a reg. homeroom teacher and I don't have much information now.
Kidbiz - Mae, there are some students who are NOT available for learning without the meds. for ADD....it is a true medical condition for some children...like diabetes or heart disease.
janelle - I am concerned as well, but when it's all chemical, it's another situation...
Ran/TN - Sorry, I think we may have two different discussions going on at the same time.
DJM/SPED/KY - School Mom....to "CYA" I would make a referral for special services....
Mae - it's okay jon, teachers get like this... i agree kidbiz, but I think there are many things that we can do as educators to modify the environment, the instruction, etc.. even for kids with out the educastional disability.. but we resort to quick fixes!
School Mom - DJM what kind of special services? BD is all I am aware of.
JonSchiff - BD isn't a service it
JonSchiff - is a classification
DJM/SPED/KY - School Mom.....by the sounds of it he would probably fit into BD or Emotinally Disturbed.....
janelle - ok, i'm feeling attacked...we have tried SEVERAL things with this kid...meds ARE NOT a quick fix we're just grasping at....
Ran/TN - School mom-It sounds like your son should be in some type of behavior modification class such as the one I teach.
School Mom - JonSchiff..if he was referred as BD what would be the normal service. We don't have a BD Cert. teacher.
Mae - no attack, janelle, just concerned about children
School Mom - Ran..what age groups do you work with?
Ran/TN - He doesn't have to necessarily be classified as bd or ed to be placed in such a class.
Ran/TN - 5th through highschool.
Teach_97 - hi everyone
JonSchiff - This is a quagmire. Too often the placement is decided upon and then an IEP drafted to conform with the district's mix of service
DJM/SPED/KY - School Mom.....if he is placed in spec. ed. as BD he doesn't necessarily have to receive services from a "BD teacher".......anyone can implement a behavior modification plan....regular ed. teachers included....
School Mom - This child is 5th grade.
paper clip - Janelle, have you ever heard of Life Space Crisis Intervention? It is a 30 hour course that teaches education professionals strategies to help children who struggle behaviorally and/ or emotioanally. It is a therapeutic, as opposed to a punitive, intervention.
Relean - In NJ we have a new test for fourth graders, ESPA, our spec ed students are not performing well on the test. Our director says that they have to take it. Isn't there a provision in IDEA that says we should be creating alternative assessments for these children?
Mae - jon, what are your thoughts about Part C of IDEA? and the concept of natural environemnts?
Kidbiz - That is quite an age span, Ran....does it work OK?
DJM/SPED/KY - Jon....I agree...and too often they put them in the best of what they offer in the school or district....not what the child needs.....
JonSchiff - It's called and Individualized Education Plan because first the needs should be identified then the goals and services defined and then the place of service deliver (LD, BD etc) determined
Teach_97 - relean are you using modifications on the test?
School Mom - Everyone that's for all your insite. And Ran..He's not my son,,but wish he was so I could paddle him. We did last week and it sure helped.
JonSchiff - Mae are you referring to least restrictive placement
School Mom - Everyone that's for all your insite. And Ran..He's not my son,,but wish he was so I could paddle him. We did last week and it sure helped.
DJM/SPED/KY - Paper clip....I have had crisis intervention training but regardless of what training I am not getting ahold of my high school boys who are larger and stronger than myself.....
Mae - Relean, MD has an alternative to the Martyland Publc Schools Performance Test for SpEd students.. begins as early as kindergarten
Mae - Relean, MD has an alternative to the Martyland Publc Schools Performance Test for SpEd students.. begins as early as kindergarten
Ran/TN - the actual grade span varies from tijme to time. Now i have 6th, 8th and 9th graders. The hardest part is plannning because each grade level is studing different textsw and subjects.
Mae - i left a school district because i was asked to witness a paddling
Laura - Ran, all those grades in one classroom?
Kidbiz - How many students, Ran?
DJM/SPED/KY - Ran.....are your kids in an alternative school?......
Ran/TN - Yes it is in an aternative school setting.
School Mom - Ran..do you have the same kids year after year soyou can follow up on previous plans.
Ran/TN - yes in the same classroom I currently have 5 students.
DJM/SPED/KY - We have an alternative school but it accepts kids who are not spec. ed.....but they do have a self-contained EBD room there.....
Mae - I am referring to the Infants aand Toddlers portion of the law... not special education that calls for services to be provided in a child's natural environemnt
Relean - Teach 97 - our director will not let us use any modifications except small group setting
JonSchiff - Ok. I'll have to look that up. If you would like to e-mail me later. I am not off the top familiar with that portion of the law.
Relean - Mae - where does the alternative test come from?
DJM/SPED/KY - Relean....what do you mean no other modifications other than small group????
blondie - Jon, I have a question about IEPs. I have 4 students on an IEP this year. I read them at the beginning of the year and can't believe some of the goals. I.E. Will read at 80% accuracy rate at grade level when the child is obviously working 2-3grade levels lower.
Ran/TN - Not usually, but we do follow up on each student for several months after the students returns to his regular school.
Relean - We have to give the test exactly like the typical fourth graders take it
Mae - state department developed it. we have to specify on the IEP that the child is not seeking a diploma.. but rather a certificate.. then they get the IMAP
Relean - They take it in the resource room setting - small group
DJM/SPED/KY - Relean....she is asking for trouble.....we use oral testing, paraphrasing, scribe (as needed), untimed testing, etc....
teach_97 - You have to try all possible modifications that are allowed by the test before they can be exempt
JonSchiff - You may need to reconvene. A lot of IEPs are written by people that don't know anything or they are written to conform with curriculum requirement. I had to intervene once in a system where everyone (even in special education) had to be using the same reading material at the same level
teach_97 - we cant paraphrase but we can read the math part orally
Mae - PART C of the law is really coming under some careful scritinzation
DJM/SPED/KY - Jon....in my state/district they are saying I have to teach the same curriculum to the spec. ed. kids as the reg. ed. kids are getting....
Relean - We used to do this - read portions, oral test etc. - now with this new test (which stinks) He won't let us do anything
JonSchiff - Mae, I will look that up as soon as the chat is done. You can e-mail me then. Sorry that I am not prepared on that part
Relean - DJM - we are also expected to do this
teach_97 - I would do some rsearch and see if there is allowable mods that he is not telling you about
JonSchiff - DJM That is illegal if the child needs instructional material at a different level
DJM/SPED/KY - My question is why make my kids read "Romeo and Juliet" when they can't read a job application enough to fill it out????.....
Relean - That's why I asked if the IDEA made provisions for alternative assessments
JonSchiff - DJM What does the IEP say?
Mae - i feel lucky to work where i do.. we are now in the mindset that we are implmenting the "spirit of the law". If parent swatn it, they get it!
School Mom - Relean..what is IDEA?
DJM/SPED/KY - Jon...they say I can use different materials at different levels but it has to be the same information.....
JonSchiff - Relean--whose question are you referring to
JonSchiff - IDEA is the federal statute providing funding for special ed
DJM/SPED/KY - Jon....the IEP has basic reading, writing, and math goals.....
JonSchiff - DJM--I see. Give me an example and it will be easier for me to visualize
School Mom - Our spe.ed.faculty (elem) go after the basic areas they need, teach reading during read,etc. and do a great job. Don't have to stick to reg. textbooks.
DJM/SPED/KY - Well for math I use this goal a lot....Susie will be able to solve real life math problems (measuring, banking, budgeting, etc.) with 75% accuracy by so and so date.....but they expect me to teach her algebra and geometry....
teach_97 - you have to follow the iep that is drawn up
JonSchiff - DJM--communicate by e-mail later. I have some suggestions but it would be too complex for a chat
Laura - Do you think she is capable/ DJM?
DJM/SPED/KY - what is your email addy?
Kidbiz - School Mom, I teach a special day class...kids with me almost all day....I don't use any reg textbooks...if the kids could use them, they wouldn't need to be in my class....
School Mom - I agree Kidbiz...!!
DJM/SPED/KY - Laura....that is the problem....most of my kids are not capable of learning algebra/geometry....they have problems doing basics with a calculator.....
JonSchiff - jschiff139@aol.com
DJM/SPED/KY - ok...thanks....will email you when i have time....
Ran/TN - Our time is about up. Jonathan, I want to thank you for joining us tonight. You have done an excellent job answering our questions inspite of the technical problems.
JonSchiff - Thank you, I enjoyed it
Kidbiz - thanks, Jon...really enjoyed the discussion!
JonSchiff - Good night
Ran/TN - I want to remind everyone to join us next month on the first Thursday night of November. If you have any topics you would like to discuss you msy email them to me at rlprice@email.com.
