Thursday, March 23, 2000
Focus Session
Caring or Coercion?
What are the costs of high stakes testing and other methods of coercing students?
with
Professor
Nel Noddings
author of
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Dr. Nel Noddings is the author of several books, including "The Challenge to Care in Schools" (Teachers College Press, 1992); "Philosophy of Education" (Westview Press, 1995); and "Caring: A Feminine Approach to Ethics and Moral Education" (University of California Press, 1984). She co-authored "Awakening the Inner Eye: Intuition in Education" with Paul Jones (Teachers College Press, 1984) and co-edited "Stories Lives Tell: Narrative and Dialogue in Education" with Carol Witherell, professor of education at Lewis & Clark College.
Nel Noddings received the Excellence in Teaching Award from Stanford University School of Education in 1981 and 1982. She is listed in "Foremost Women of the 20th Century," "Who's Who of American Women," "Who's Who in American Education," "International Women's Who's Who," "Who's Who in America," and "Who's Who in the Humanities."
Kathleen - Hi Marty.
On behalf of Teachers.Net, thank you for moderating this session with very
special guest Dr. Nel Noddings.
Marty K / moderator
- You are more than welcome
Marty K / moderator
- In my ongoing journey towards teaching ... I noticed that children learned
better when they were happy ... and less when sad. The key for me though
was to find a way that let them be happy, find meaning and learn ... on
this quest I was referred to the works of Nel Noddings. Her earlier book
Caring : A Feminine Approach to Ethics and Moral Education was a cornerstone
for me in understanding more about caring and how it is fostered. I am
pleased to be able to help moderate this session this evening. Welcome
Nel ....
nel - Hi, Marty.
Ready for question
Stanley - Is there
a way high stakes testing can be considered caring???
nel - This is just
the right question. No, I think this is what might be called fake caring.
Stanley - Please
explain the "fake" part. It's what I believe, but I'd like backup!
nel - Well, people
claim to care and institute these tests in the name of caring and equality,
but the kids do not feel cared for and teachers are demoralized. Caring
requires a response of recognition from the cared-for.
Stanley - Where I
am I know a leader of the business consortium that is pushing testing.
nel - Yes, and politicians
are making names for themselves, too, but the end result so far seems to
be an undermining of care and trust--and not much by way of real improvement
in learning either.
Stanley - Thank you!
At our site testing/preparation is virtually all we do! :-(
Sherri - When you
talk about caring are you talking about getting to know the children on
a personal level in addition to instructing?
nel - Yes, to care
we have to know the cared-for. Time spent in building relations of care
and trust are vital to teaching. When those relations are established,
everything else goes better, and the teacher has a chance at helping the
student to find meaning in what is being taught.
Sherri - I think all
teachers try to be caring. How do we know we're being the most effective
in making the students feel cared for?
nel - Teachers do
try to care. I make a distinction between caring as virtue and caring as
relation. Caring as virtue means that we act from our own framework and
try to do what we think the other needs. In caring as relation, we work
with the needs expressed by the cared-for. And we judge what we do not
from the perspective of our own virtue but by the response of the cared-for.
This accounts for the widespread claims by teachers to care and the corresponding
claims by kids that "nobody cares."
Dana/NC - North Carolina
has been in the news a lot for its accountability standards. How do you
feel about students being retained because they didn't pass the state mandated
tests?
nel - On retention-most
research shows that kids do not profit by retention, although an article
in last week's Ed Week suggests that some do. We have to do something for
kids who are having trouble, but I don't think retention is the answer.
Kids suffer humiliation from the experience.
Kathleen - Education
Week http://www.edweek.com/
Marty K / moderator
- Nel Noddings is giving a major talk ... distingusihed educator Lecture
for ASCD in New Orleans next week. The topic is liberal democracy
Kathleen - Association
for Supervision and Curriculum Development http://www.ascd.org/
Stanley - How does
a T transition from caring as virtue to caring as relation?
nel - To establish
caring relations, we have to listen to kids and work with their interests.
That doesn't mean that we don't guide them, but we use their interests
to motivate them. We have to get away from the idea that we can just impose
a pre-set curriculum on kids and say that we "care."
Stanley - So, it's
primarily via listening that we transition as Ts?
Marty K / moderator
- Doesn't William Glasser write on this in his works?
nel - Glasser does
say some useful things on schools without failure. Stanley, it isn't just
listening, of course, but we do have to respond to how kids are feeling,
how they are reacting to what we do, and we have to adjust our teaching
in response to their responses.
Teresa - Some students
will need intensive intervention throughout their school years.How do you
feel about true qualitative assessment?
nel - Teresa, qualitative
assessments can be fine so long as they are not too complicated. When we
live with kids, work with them daily, we should be able to make well-informed
judgments in much the way good parents do. That means less, not more, formal
evaluation.
Bill t NC - Recently,
I was told that the majority of teachers support all the testing and acountability
and the competiton between schools. Have you found this to be true? I just
cannot believe it's a good thing.
nel - No, that isn't
true. I travel all over the country giving talks and listening to people.
Teachers are sick of the testing and disgusted with the pernicious comparison
of kids, schools, districts, and states. Teacher educators are ready to
rebel.
Bill t NC - More
than ready I promise. Thanks
eimmik - What are
your suggestions to the steps educators should take in order to see testing
reforms?
nel - Well, I really
wish parents would refuse to send their kids to school on test days and
that teachers would back them up on this. We need to reclaim the strength
of our professional judgment.
Marty K / moderator - keep updated on this rebellion through the newsletter I do on caring .... http://caringteachers.com
Teresa - I would like
to know about alternatives you may have come up with besides high stake
testing...
nel - Teresa, we
did fine for years without high-stakes testing. I have no objection to
random sample testing to see how we are doing on new standards and curricula,
but we shouldn't destroy the teacher-student relationship and real learning
with high stakes testing.
nel - We have to
work to restore care and trust. One reason we have lost trust is the growth
of large schools. People do not feel that the schools are "theirs". The
accountability movement has capitalized on this feeling of lost trust.
eimmik - May we have another suggestion because in North Carolina they will not pass if they do not take the standardized test so do you have any other suggestions we can take as educators to mandate this reform in our non-union state?
Stanley - In San Diego we inform parents of their options, but we're forbidden from ENCOURAGING them one way or the other.
Marty K / moderator - afterwards you can write to Nel Noddings at nelnoddings@stanford.edu
Teresa - I agree. See, when you teach in Alabama, Mississippi, etc...difficult to state to the nation that you are relying on teacher observation...It would not hold up. I wish that it would
wisdom-seeker - Rather
than teachers rebelling, isn't it the students who are really the rebels?
They are refusing to take the tests.
nel - I hadn't heard
that students are refusing to take the test, but I say good for them. Teachers
should join them. Enough is enough.
didi - Here in Australia
they are just bringing in testing across all the states to tie funding
to it. how do parents in the Usa regard the testing?
nel - Many parents
are distresses by the testing because their kids are so anxious over them.
It's interesting to learn that China is now trying to get away from test-driven
curriculum.
Kathleen - National Center for Research on Evaluation, Standards, and Student Testing (CRESST) [conducts research on important topics related to K-12 educational testing] http://www.cse.ucla.edu/
Bill t NC - Some will
claim that teachers who oppose the testing are just dodging accountability.
What about that?
nel - Bill, responsibility
is bigger than accountability. We have to show parents that we are willing
to take responsibility. That's one reason I'd like to see teachers and
kids stay together for several years. That gives trust a chance to develop.
Kathleen - The Use and Misuse of Test Scores in Reform Debate-a Rand policy brief: http://www.rand.org/publications/RB/RB8008/
Bill t NC - If we refused to cooperate in NC, we'd all be fired
Marty K / moderator
- Can you comment on morning meetings at some point near the end
nel - Marty, say
more about what you mean by morning meetings.
Marty K / moderator
- Morning rituals where the class comes together to build community ...
the work of tribes, the work of the responsive classroom ....
nel - I like the
idea .It would be a good time to read stories, sing songs, recite poetry.
Marty K / moderator
- yes
Kathleen - From FairTest, an advocacy organization committed to ensuring that national assessment practices are free from bias, "Testing Our Children: A Report Card on State Assessment Systems," http://www.fairtest.org/states/survey.htm
Vista - How can a
student refuse testing without the possiblity of being held back? Also
as a teacher how can you support this without fear of losing your job?
nel - Well, no individual
teacher can fight this battle alone, nor can any one student. It will require
unified effort. Alfie Kohn is leading a group in Mass., and I talked to
people in Minn. who are ready to do something also.
Bill t NC - Might
I just make a comment or am I out of line?
Bill t NC - I, for
one, refuse to "teach the test." I told a principal that at a middle school
I have been offered a job at for next year. She liked my saying!!!
wisdom-seeker - It
requires courage to oppose oppression.
aggie/1/ca - Good
for you, Bill!
Bill t NC - Let us
know when. We are trying to form a group like that on t net. They cannot
fire us all!!!
Teresa - What has
happened to the idea of using assessment of our students as a "road map"
versus a comparison of our schools?
nel - Teresa, The
road map idea is the one behind random sample testing. We get some notion
of how we and others are doing and that can steer us, but we don't need
all this unhealthy comparison.
nel - You may all be interested in a book by Linda McNeill that will be out next month. Her research shows that the quality of teaching has actually fallen in Texas as a result of the TAAS.
Bill t NC - We need to do SOMETHING because we are doing harming to an entire generation of learners, never mind what it's doing to teachers blood pressure
Marty K / moderator
- Nel ... do you have a final comment to share with us .... I so appreciate
your caring sharing
nel - Caring requires
time. We need to know the kids with whom we work, share with them, have
fun with them, teach them informally as well as formally.
Kathleen - Dr. Nel Noddings, thank you for spending this hour online with Teachers.Net. The issues discussed here tonight cannot be put to rest easily, but the dialogue is necessary and can motivate educators everywhere to develop the confidence to stand for what they know is right for students, and stand together in opposition to what does not provide an effective and caring system of education. Marty, thank you for your part in producing this event. Thank you to all participants. Teachers.Net bids you goodnight, and good luck out there in the trenches!
nel - Also, I'm with you. If I can help, let me know.
