Focus Session
with
Michael Thompson, Ph.D
co-author of
Raising Cain-Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345434854/teachersnet
misstoe - Michael,
have a fairly new student who spit in the face of another child , is sullen
and refuses to do any work in class.
MichaelT - misstoe,
what age boy?
misstoe - I teach
grade 2, 7 and 8 year olds
MichaelT - misstoe,
well spitting is a pretty primitive biological response. Was he threatened?
Is he frightened?
misstoe - Michael,
another student told him he was being a pain cause he got their table in
trouble in art class.
MichaelT - boys often
do scary and obnoxious things when they are in fact scared
misstoe - Any suggestions
for ways to get him more comfortable in classroom and participating
MichaelT - misstoe,
so he is extremely thin-skinned and has problems with impulse control.
Does he respond to your presence. Does an adult calm him down?
misstoe - Michael,
he is pretty calm around me, but falls apart outside of the classroom.
MichaelT - misstoe,
it is a good sign that he is calm around you. He has at least one adult
in the school whom he feels safe around. Now we need to help him feel safe
with the other children. He clearly is in transition. Did he have trouble
in his previous setting?
misstoe - Oh yes,
many problems in other school system. Very bright
MichaelT - misstoe,
that he is bright and has made an attachment to you is a good start. The
spitting is primitive in a psychological sense. That's a bad sign. He gets
easily overwhelmed.
RandyAk2 - What do
you think boys need in general today?
MichaelT - Randy,
boys need what they've always needed. Love, monitoring, attention. A combination
of people who like boys and firm limits. We're a society who is raising
boys whom we are scared of.
RandyAk2 - How much
structure should we supply them?
MichaelT - Randy,
don't worry. I think I can talk to two people at once. Boys in school need
limits because by school age 3/4 of the boys in a class are more physically
active, more impulsive and less developmentally mature than girls of the
same age. Boys and school are a tough fit. Nevertheless, if we enjoy their
humor and their energy, all the while we put limits on them, they will
thrive. What they detest is a steady diet of shame and comparing them unfavorably
to girls.
EMA - Who is raising/parenting
the 40percent not raised by bio dads - and why don't the bio dads participate
in the raising/parenting - will this 40 percent not parent because they
don't know how?
MichaelT - EMA, it
is worse than 40%. 60% of children in the U.S. will spend part of their
childhoods with only one parent. It is usually the father who is gone. Mothers
are doing a heroic job of single-parenting boys, but it is tough, especially
when they get to be adolescents.
MichaelT - EMA, the
boys who don't have bio dads are usually from divorced families where the
dads wander off and don't support and spend time with their kids.
Mary K&1 - Some
of this has already been answered, but I think that there may be more to
add. What are the causes, major and other, of the anger? When, in the child's
development do the seeds of anger begin to sprout?
Kathleen - And once
planted, when is it too late to reverse the damage done (seeds of anger)?
MichaelT - Mary K&1.
Boys are in a bind. From the beginning, literally from birth, we tell them
to be strong. At the same time they are little and vulnerable. By age eight
they are measuring everything they do on one dimension: from weak to strong.
Boys often express grief, sadness, bewilderment, confusion, hurt and shame
as anger, because they think it looks strong and masculine.
MichaelT - Kathleen,
I hate to say that it is"too late" in the life of a boy. But the truth
is that when boys have been raised in families that criticize and hit them,
and they have been brutalized by a teenage group, and their adult role
models are violent, they are well down the road to being beyond recovery.
Their anger is permanent.
MichaelT - Mary K&1.
The trick with boys is to manage the anger, while understanding the deeper
feeling and responding to that as well. It is easy to say and hard to do
in a classroom. I know, I was a teacher before I became a psychologist.
max - Michael, hope
I say this right, I teach severely emotionally disturbed (SED) students
in the most restrictive public environment~~next step is some sort of hospitalization/treatment
program. I relate to everything you are saying, my kids just do everything
more often, more intensely, and more frequently than other students. They
are very ill. I am very ashamed of the little we are able to do for them
in the "long haul". I think we do fairly well day by day, but our kids
just don't make it. Where do we turn for resources? SED students have so
much good in them that is rarely seen. ( I have read Pollack, I loved hearing
we should allow boys to cry) Michael, Max is female
MichaelT - Max, you
have my respect for working with emotionally disturbed boys. It is very
draining work. But you know how much they want to be loved---and how obnoxious
they can be in the way they search for security and affection. Keep up
your good work. I am glad that you liked Real Boys. I know Bill Pollack
and respect him. However, it is not easy for boys to feel ok about crying,
even when the adults around them having given them permission to do so.
Boys suffer terribly from shame and not living up to their idea of masculinity.
Bill and I are in agreement about that.
RandyAk2 - Dr. T What
do you mean by we are afraid of the boys growing up in society? What should
we do to reduce that fear? Do you mean gangs or individuals? How do we
build relationships with individuals? Sorry that must be too many questions.
MichaelT - randy,
I work in schools and I see what teachers don't want to admit. They are
often afraid of high school boys. Not just gangs, but boys hanging out
in the halls. One of the things I have learned from working in a boys'
school, admittedly a school for boys of privilege, is that when you have
a faculty that likes boys and does not fear them, the boys settle down.
MichaelT - Randy,
you have to build relationships with individuals one boy at a time. Sorry
for the cliche. But first all children have to feel as safe as possible
in a classroom. When boy anger dominates a class, or when the cruelest
tenth grade boys intimidate other children, all kids are afraid. And then
boys "identify with the aggressors." The only survival strategy is to try
to be as tough as the tough guys. That's the cycle.
Kathleen - One reviewer said: In Raising Cain, Kindlon and Thompson present "What Boys Need," seven points that reach far beyond the ordinary psychobabble checklist and slogan list.
danni - what importance,
if any, do you give to boys' participation in organized sports?
MichaelT - danni,
I wasn't much of an athlete myself. However, as an adult I have come to
appreciate how much GOOD coaches can do for boys. Sports is high cards
for boys and they are very motivated in this area. Good coaches can really
reach them and teach them wonderful lessons. Bad coaches, by contrast,
have an unusually big impact. Coaches who believe boys are toughened up by
cruelty, who look the other way when there is team hazing, can really do
damage. A lot of angry boys have been traumatized (did you read about the
Univ. of Vermont hockey team's hazing). Worse yet, some boy athletes are
treated like entitled princes and they become lawless. Have you ever read
"Our Guys: the rape at Glen Ridge, N.J. and the secret life of an affluent
suburb?" It is about four football players who gang raped a mentally retarded
girl. They had never been held to any standards of morality by their coaches
or teachers.
MichaelT - danni,
I went off on the bad coaches. Please try to remember that I really appreciate
how much good "therapy" loving coaches do for their teams.
EMA - how are we (teachers)
to fill in the gaps of adolescent boys not being parented by "dads" or
appropriate male role models?
MichaelT - EMA, you
can't take boys, especially 15 and 16-year-olds at face value. They often
try to "blow off" adults. We need to stay in contact with them in schools.
For fatherless boys, a teacher or a coach may be the only male role model
they have. Despite that, they often try to put us off. I believe that you
have to stay in contact, even if it is negative contact, until a boy knows
that you care. Of course, a therapist would say that. But I see good teachers
do it all the time.
MichaelT - EMA, staying
in contact with boys who are angry is hard work, but they can be won over.
Kathleen - Michael,
do you see advantages in the practice of segregating boys and girls in
schools, grouping them by gender? Does that avoid some of the social problems
and pressures which can produce negative effects?
MichaelT - Kathleen,
yes, sometimes boys will be much more emotionally open when they are with
other guys in the presence of adults who model openness for them. I once
did a discussion with 65 boys about the death of one boy's mother. They
were very resistant at first, but after a male teacher talked about his
mother's death, the boys opened up. When you have girls there, they do
all the talking about feelings and boys either withdraw or they can be
mocking and immature.
misstoe - What can
we do as classroom teachers to help these boys be successful in school?
MichaelT - misstoe,
are you talking about angry boys? The most important thing is to not be
scared or over impressed. You have to have a sense of humor; boys respond
to that. But mainly boys like some feeling of expertise and power. If you
can do that for little guys, they respond. I have seen some bad actors
shape up when their teachers asked them to run errands for them. Then the
boys felt useful and they stopped being so oppositional
Mary K&1 - Can
what we do in school really have an impact, can we (the school) bring meaningful
and lasting change for the better in helping these children learn to deal
with, understand, and control their anger WITHOUT cooperation from their
home environmental influences?
MichaelT - Mary K&1.
No, it is a much bigger problem than school can solve by itself. Look at
the terrible male role models in the media. One survey of 110 t.v. sitcoms
found only 15 competent males. The media is full of violent, muscular wrestlers
and gun play and nitwit dads. The disintegration of the American family
concerns anyone who works with children, boys especially. We've had a thirty-five
year epidemic of divorce in this country, and a twenty-five year epidemic
of boy violence. I'm no sociologist, but it is hard for me not to connect
the two.
~§Jude§~
- I work with incarcerated youth, and on a community level with gang affiliated
youth. I tend to have success with my kiddos. However, one real hurdle
I encounter is a lot of the adult males in the field do not encourage the
young men to express their emotions...in fact quite the opposite. What
can I do to help my male co-workers etc realize the importance of boys
being able to express themselves?
Kathleen - Jude,
recommend they buy and read Raising Cain-Protecting the Emotional Life
of Boys http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345434854/teachersnet
;-)
MichaelT - Jude,
buy them copies of "Raising Cain." Sorry, that was truly self-serving.
You should read Jim Garbarino 's wonderful book, "Lost Boys.=" Jim is a
professor at Cornell who knows more about murderous and incarcerated boys
than anyone. He believes that we have to forget the "boot camp" atmosphere
for boys and create a "spiritual" and "Monastic" atmosphere. We can't heal
boys---and I think you know this---by presenting them with tough, unfeeling
men. We have to open our hearts to them, so they can see our insides. Boys
treasure that. Boys remember when they have seen their fathers struggle
or cry. It is so important to them
MichaelT - Kathleen,
thanks for suggesting the book.
Tami - I don't know
if this has already been discussed tonight but I have a student who is
just angry. Mom doesn't care and lets him run around with sixth, seventh,
and eighth graders (he's third grade). He doesn't care about school and
even after knowing consequences still continues to show inappropriate behavior.
I have tried everything imaginable with and nothing motivates him or works.
He goes to Resource because of his problems in reading and language arts.
He is at a first grade level in third grade. We thought that maybe the
individualized attention would help but it hasn't seemed to thus far. He
also takes adderall (sp?) twice daily. Once as soon as he arrives and once
after lunch. However, the first half hour after he takes it is always the
worst. It's to the point where he disrupts my whole class and gets my other
boys going. He is just an angry child. In the conference with his mother
she said that he slaps her in the face and she doesn't see a problem with
that. To me that only fuels the fire. He basically takes care of himself
(he's only 10). He is failing and he doesn't care. What else is there to
do? I praise him for jobs well done and the very next minute or day he
is rude and inconsiderate and doing everything opposite of what he was
praised for.
MichaelT - Tami,
this is a tough case. This boy has ADHD, and he's behind in school (and
angry about that) and he's neglected and hit around at home. It doesn't
get a lot worse than that. Is this a case where the state should be called?
If he is regularly hit and allowed to run with older kids, that's a case
for neglect (I know, I know, the state can be problematic and they probably
have worse cases). This boy needs a therapeutic and structured environment.
He is at terrible risk for emotional disturbance and anger and criminality
down the road. I disagree with your statement that he is "just angry" He
is angry for very good reason! In a sense, he is the sane one. Life is
bad for him and he is in permanent protest.
MichaelT - Tami,
your boy's inconsistency is what he is learning at home. He comes from
a chaotic environment. Only with structure can he learn to trust, and become
more consistent himself.
Kathleen - Dr. Thompson,
in the book you state that the "big-stick approach" to discipline only
makes boys more prone to meanness. Can you point advocates of school paddling
to research that would back up that statement? Those who "paddle" feel
strongly that the practice is sound and effective.
MichaelT - Kathleen,
there is a huge body of research to show that harsh discipline produces
aggressive boys. They may behave at home, when they are threatened, but
they come to school and are aggressive to other kids.
MichaelT - Kathleen,
that's why 31 states have said "no" to corporal punishment in the schools.
19 still sanction it. Corporal punishment means hitting boys, and they
pay us back in confrontation and resentment and anger.
¤êrã§êr¤
- Michael, did you know only the USA and Iran will prosecute a child with
death in the legal system
MichaelT - eraser,
we're quite a country of contradictions aren't we? I did know that. It
is very sad.
MichaelT - Kathleen
and Everyone, Good Night. Thanks for a stimulating discussion.
Kathleen - Good night
all, Michael's fingers must be ready to cramp up!
Kathleen - Also on
this topic: Real Boys : Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood by
William S. Pollack http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805061835/teachersnet
Kathleen - Lost Boys
: Why Our Sons Turn Violent and How We Can Save Them by James Garbarino
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684859084/teachersnet/
Kathleen - Raising
Children in a Socially Toxic Environment by James Garbarino http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787901164/teachersnet
Kathleen - Angry
Young Men: How Parents, Teachers, and Counselors Can Help Bad Boys Become
Good Men by Aaron R. Kipnis http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787946044/teachersnet