Kathleen - Teachers.Net is happy to present Jane Katch, author of Under Deadman's Skin-Discovering the Meaning of Children's Violent Play by Jane Katch, with an Introduction by Vivian Paley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807031283/teachersnet
jane katch - Thanks, Kathleen, I'm happy to be here.Kathleen - Jane, would you tell us a bit about how you ended up at the Orthogenic School with Bruno Bettleheim?
jane katch - I went to work with emotionally disturbed children directly from college in the 60's. I worked with a group of children, taking care of them when they were not in school, much like a parent.
jane katch - At that time, Bettelheim was the head of the school. I learned from him the importance of empathy--the importance of being able to imagine what another person feels like, even when they seem very different than oneself.
Kathleen - About Bruno Bettleheim: http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/01419.htmlKathleen - Jane, when did your interest in children and violence begin?
jane katch - A few years ago, I had a class that had a group of children who were fascinated by violent fantasy play that was unusual. I tried to stop it, but the play was so intense, the children tried to hide it from me but I could see it was continuing. I decided to try to understand why they were so compelled by it and what I could do to help them.maggie - I am curious jane,, did your research find an increase in violent play with children,, or are we just more aware of it due to recent violent happenings in schools?
jane katch - My study took place only in my own classroom of five and six year olds, and with a group of nine and ten-year olds that I interviewed. But their fascination seemed different to me than other children I had seen over the years, and I have talked with many other teachers who are seeing similar issues.
jane katch - Maggie: The violence of their fantasies was unusual. They talked about R-rated movies they had seen or pretended to see, and talked about Deadman and Bloodman, characters they had heard about in the media.Dave MontrealCan - Hi Jane I am sight impaired and I give workshops to elementary teachers on mainstreaming sight impaired children into the regular classroom, do you discuss the problems of bullying sight impaired or blind children in a classroom and the consequences that follow?
jane katch - I do talk about teasing and bullying, although not specifically about children with impaired sight. In my book, I describe the discussions that my class had when issues around exclusion occurred, and the importance of dealing with these as a teacher and with the whole class. I think this is a very important issue.
jane katch - I think it is critical that teacher not ignore bullying and teasing, but help children to learn to understand and accept, even enjoy differences.Kathleen - The book is: Under Deadman's Skin-Discovering the Meaning of Children's Violent Play by Jane Katch, with an Introduction by Vivian Gussin Paley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807031283/teachersnet
maggie - to follow up Jane,,over the years I too have noticed that so many students seem to be exposed to so much sex and violence at far too young an age,, did you notice that along with that violent play you noticed a marked desensitivity amongst the children?
jane katch - Maggie: One of the older boys I talked with described that kind of desensitivity that came from watching violent video games. He used it to help himself get over his fears of going to sleep at night, but he also realized it could become problematic.
Kathleen - jane, so that older boy was de-senitizing himself?
jane katch - Kathleen: Yes, he would watch a violent scene in a movie over and over, until he was no longer afraid of it. But he was concerned, especially after Columbine, that it could become a problem , and that watching such violent images could encourage acting them out in some people under some circumstances. He was very thoughtful and concerned about its impact.Kathleen - More about Jane's former colleague, Bruno Bettelheim: Bettleheim asserted that the true fairy tale or folk tale was devised to help children through their stages of psychological growth. Through reading and hearing about these heroes and heroines, then acting out the stories in their play, children learn strategies for dealing with different problems.
Dave MontrealCan - Jane do you feel that children tend to be more violent toward someone who is impaired in any way more so than someone who is not? I find that this can be the case in certain situations where i have asked teachers?
jane katch - Dave: I think that some children tend to tease those they see as vulnerable. Certainly any kind of impairment can make children feel they want to distance themselves from it. Adults can help them to be more comfortable with disabilities or differences, so they become supportive, instead.Kathleen - Jane, many teachers forbid children to engage in pretend gun play in the classroom. Do you believe that is a good strategy, or do we just force them "underground" with that sort of play?
jane katch - Kathleen: I believe that forbidding all pretend violence, such as pointing a finger and saying "bang" can indeed backfire. Children learn to hide it, to lie about it, but not to deal with it and with each other. It is important to make rules so that every child can feel safe, emotionally and physically, but also to allow young children to express their fantasies and their ideas.maggie - sorry to be taking up so much of this discussion jane and Kathleen but this is a topic of great interest to me. With so many government cutbacks I have noticed that many of our smaller schools are being closed and the children are being sent to large feeder schools,, Jane,, do you feel that these larger educational only serve to increase the problem of violence and bullying within a school setting?
jane katch - Maggie, that's a very good question. I think that one way to come to accept differences is to get to know people who are different on a personal level, and to see the similarities as well as the differences. In a large, impersonal setting, this is hard to do.jtck - On the "gun" play issue...so all schools have zero tolerance gun policies, but you say that pointing a finger is OK. I don't think that will fly at my school...
Kathleen - jtck, it is controversial, but maybe we should examine the policy, if all it does is bury, subvert, delay to create greater problems
jtck - How do you make the distinction with very young kids?
jane katch - I feel strongly that we need to make a distinction between real violence, real threats and real weapons, and fantasies that are played co-operatively with other children, as I used to play cowboys and Indians as a child. This did not make me a violent person. I think the important issue is to help children learn to listen to each other, to co-operate, and to negotiate agreements. This is what will help them be truly peaceful human beings.Kathleen - Jane, now that boys are no longer allowed, or find occasion vent physically via tussles, minor fist fights, do you think we've just caused delayed reactions that come out in more dangerous violence, or being drawn to it, later on?
jane katch - Kathleen: I think that when we act as though it is dangerous to have a violent fantasy, such as the wish to say "bang" to another friendly child, we give the child the feeling that his fantasies are bad and dangerous. Since the child can not control his fantasies, it can be disturbing and confusing to him. I have known adults who told me that until they read my book, they thought that they were the only one who ever had such thoughts, and that something must be wrong with them.Dave MontrealCan - Jane have you ever taught a sight impaired or blind child? If so did you find that there was a problem with bullying or teasing it can really have an emotional impact on a sight impaired child who has enough problems trying to face their sight impairment and how to cope with it in society every day?
jane katch - Dave: I have never taught a blind child, but I can imagine the impact of such teasing could be very serious. I think teachers need to take a strong stand against such behavior, and find ways to help such a child become a group member. I recommend Vivian Paley's book, The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter " and her book "The Kindness of Children" which deal with how to help unusual children join a group, as well as my own book, Under Deadman's Skin.Kathleen - The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter by Vivian Paley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674080319/teachersnet
Kathleen - The Kindness of Children by Vivian Gussin Paley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674503589/teachersnet
Kathleen - Wally's Stories : Conversations in the Kindergarten by Vivian Gussin Paley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067494593X/teachersnet
Kathleen - Bad Guys Don't Have Birthdays : Fantasy Play at Four by Vivian Gussin Paley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226644960/teachersnetJeffG - Jane, could you talk a little bit about your approach, the techniques you use to help teachers and parents work with children to teach them how to listen to each other, coopERATE, negotiate agreements, etc.
jane katch - Jeff: Yes, what I did with my five and six-year olds was to have them negotiate the rules of their games as much as possible. We would discuss the problems they had at recess, listen to each child's point of view, and come up with rules that satisfied everyone involved in the game. It was an important process that helped each child learn to explain his/her ideas and also listen to others'.Kathleen - jane, you had a full day program, right?
jane katch - Yes, the class is from 8:30 to 3:00.Kathleen - jane, have you worked with Vivian Paley?
jane katch - Yes, many years ago, I did my student teaching with her at the University of Chicago Lab Schoolmaggie - along the same line jane,, do you spend much time with the children to teach them ways to resolve the problem such as rocks, scissors, paper,,, and if so... do you have any other ways you have the kids resolve the problems they might encounter?
jane katch - Maggie: I do teach them tools like that, but I also help them to see that they know many ways of resolving their own problems, and that they have choices they can make about what tools they want to use. Often when there is a problem, we first "collect ideas", a process in which the children in the class brainstorm many possible ways to solve the problem. Then in the process of discussion, we often reach consensus about what to do about it.
jane katch - In my book, I describe many of the discussions we had in order to solve the problems that came up with this group of children.Kathleen - Jane, how have you modified your practices in the classroom since writing your book?
jane katch - I used a tape recorder in order to be able to listen to exactly what went on in our discussions and in the childrens' play. I learned to see where my interventions were really helpful and where they were not as useful or where I made assumptions that were incorrect! It was a very valuable and deep learning experience for me.maggie - jane,, you mentioned you first noticed problems with a particular group of children,, are you following their progress through school as they grow?
Kathleen - another good question, any informal longitudinal study?
jane katch - I have been able to follow several of the children I talked with and that were in my class. Some of them, of course, have moved away or left the school. The older child who was fascinated by violent video games in, in fact, a caring and concerned person who continues to care deeply about his peers even though his interest in violent fantasies continues.JeffG - Jane, in my state, Michigan, there is currently a lot of attention toward implementing Positive Behavioral Support initiatives, even for very young children. Are you familiar with these? If you are, do you think the approach can help working with violent children
jane katch - Jeff: I am not familiar with that program. Do you want to describe it?Kathleen - Jane, would you explain the origin of "Under Deadman's Skin"? What is that in reference to?
jane katch - Kathleen: The phrase "Under Deadman's Skin" came from a discussion between two children in my class who were discussing characters they had heard about called "Deadman" and "Bloodman". One child said, "Know what's under Deadman's skin? It's blood and bones and everything." It became a metaphor for me, both for the children's fascination with violent images, and also with my increasing curiosity about why those images were so important to me. I came to feel that I wanted to get "under their skin", to see how the world looked from their point of view.Kathleen - Jane, is there another book, perhaps articles coming?
jane katch - Kathleen: I am looking more deeply into issues of exclusion at this point.Kathleen - The March Issue of the Teachers.Net Gazette http://teachers.net/gazette has several articles about violence and bullying.
Kathleen - Jane, any other books you recommend for those interested in reading more, after they read your book?
jane katch - One of my favorite books about boys is "Raising Cain" by Thompson and KindlonDave MontrealCan - Jane you are an inspiration
jane katch - Thank you, Dave. You are doing important work, and I wish you well with your effort to help those sight impaired children who are being treated badly by their peers.
Dave MontrealCan - Jane I am sight impaired myself and was mainstreamed in the regular school system from K through University I went to elementary school in the 1970's when it was rare to be mainstreamed at that timemaggie - thanks very much kathleen and jane,, have a safe evening
jane katch - Thank you all for your thoughtful and interesting questions.Kathleen - Transcript of chat with Michael Thompson, co-author of Raising Cain, Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys: http://teachers.net/archive/thompson022300.html
Kathleen - Jane, thank YOU. Will you return for another conversation some time?
jane katch - Yes, I'd be happy to do that.
Dave MontrealCan - Jane best of luck you are doing a wonderful thing for children and teachers
Kathleen - Jane, goodnight and thanks for being tenacious about getting into our Conference Room.
jane katch - Thank you, Kathleen, and good night!
Kathleen - Thank you, participants! This was an interesting topic.
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