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Beth Bruno - Tonight's topic is class management - discussion of rewards and punishments and motivation
Beth Bruno - I also think we need to accept comments about Littleton, too. It's on everyone's minds
Beth Bruno - For me, the hardest kids to motivate are the ones who act like they don't care.
Beth Bruno - What's on your minds tonight?
Ann - I don't have problems within my classroom - it's the campus that needs help - I treat every child with respect - I call ALL my parents the first two weeks of school which helps immensely - I modify within my classroom - changing seats, touching a shoulder, calling a parent - I do most anything to keep a child out of the office
Debi - How does everyone use rewards??
Ann - I have very few students who are the correct age for this grade - I use stickers - they love them - I also write notes to their homes - they brag about them
Beth Bruno - When I write notes home, I tell the good news. If I need to troubleshoot about bad news, I do it in person
Beth Bruno - Sounds like you do that, too, Ann
Ann - Yes, most of my students can hardly stand much more negative :(
Beth Bruno - How do you think events in Colorado might be related to tonight's topic about rewards and punishments?
debi - I try to make many things a game.
Beth Bruno - I guess I've been wondering how teachers and administrators were reacting to the trenchcoat gang.
Ann - My students are so grounded in reality - the first comment I heard about Colorado was why they were allowed to wear trenchcoats
al-IA - No to be incensitive, but I came here to get away from that topic.
Beth Bruno - I guess no matter how many signs there are, no one can believe that kids would act on such words or thoughts.
bport - How do I know if a child needs counseling?
ben/ns - my students wanted (needed) to talk about this today even though we are so far away from it
Beth Bruno - Hi Al, That's ok by me. Let's talk about our own classes. I just didn't to ignore it if people were wanting to discuss it.
Ann - I see the absolute hatred some children have for other children everyday - I don't think any teacher can ever know when the powder keg that is prevelant in society today will go off
max - I work with the severely emotionally disturbed population in a public school setting, I can believe it, sadly
Beth Bruno - A child's problems remain across lots of different situations. That's one clue that counseling may be needed.
james/ca - al-IA, to get away from this topic you must first deeply delve within it
al-IA - Beth, I am a sub. I depend on rewards alot. I try to make them positive comments and the like. One class I sub for alot is realy out of control. I tried candy. What a mistake
Beth Bruno - When emotions are excessive in a mild situation - another sign.
max - rewards and consequences are a part of life
Kathleen - Some people say that we are rewarding students too much (extrinsic), that we need to build more desire or understanding of intrinsic reward. Others say educators and parents should be doling out more punishment.
debi - What age would that be al-IA???
Beth Bruno - Do all of you have a school psychologist, counselor or social worker available to help you make determinations about referrals for counseling or other services?
james/ca - I know some teachers al, who have tried alcohol and amphetamines, but it did not work for them either
max - what research supports "punsihment" as an effective intervention for a disturbed child
max - suppose to, but the guidance counselor and school psychologist position are not filled
al-IA - debi, they are 7th graders. I had them one day and brought the reward the next day ,
james/ca - Kat, I have always found that knowledge as a reward has always worked
Kathleen - There seem to be too few of those support people in most schools, resulting in lack of inidvidual attention where it's needed. They spend their time in meetings, paperwork, identifying and agreeing about needs, but not enough time (and people) to do anything more
Beth Bruno - I work hard to tap a child's natural curiosity. Children find the process of learning and mastery extremely rewarding, in and of itself.
al-IA - we have a great counselor.
Ann - We have counselors, and I use them quite a lot rather than sending someone to the office
max - students in need of counseling, assigned counseling, still do not recieve sufficient counseling; our society is not ready to deal with the mentally ill child (my opinion)
james/ca - Counselers, psych worker, all mish mosh when it comes down to the teachers basic intuative nature as an indicator max
debi - I try hard to do that also, Beth.
Kathleen - james, are the kids' minds open to it though in a punitive, controlling setting that depends upon extrinsic reward and use of punishment to control?
max - child who meet success feel good about themselves and in return act more "acceptable", happier
Alice - I agree with you James, teachers basic intuation usually works best...
max - ' splain what you just said james, please
jilli - Ka, what kid is't?
Beth Bruno - I agree, James, that teachers need to cultivate their intuitions about troubled students. It also helps to have colleagues to discuss ideas with - a good counselor or administrator can offer that second opinion.
Kathleen - The question of using food as a motivator- that can probably be dispensed with easily in this group. I vote no.
james/ca - kat, I find that fear is a mind killer, all educational stratgies that will work must operate outside of fear of pain
max - I think kids are open to positive behavioral support, which I feel is far and slim in the offering
al-IA - We have pride points which can be used as money at quarterly pride point nights.
Ann - If I pass out food, everybody gets whatever I'm giving
Kathleen - james, I agree.
Kathleen - al, how does one earn pride points?
james/ca - Kat, I have always posed a question as a motivator...
max - Kathleen, I think it depends on the level of need, some kids require the edible if nothing else works, then you need to fade it
Alice - I also vote no to food.... it usually does not work ....
debi - Food, such as candy???
Beth Bruno - I also vote no on candy. And parents who have written to me about candy as a reinforcer are dead set against it. I haven't received a single letter from a parent yet who approves of the practice.
-=êrã§êr=- - children who have met success..must be reminded of that success
Ann - my personal favorite - Starbursts :)
Kathleen - max, I was just thinking, never say never. There are always exceptions. extremes that require us to go outside of what we like to use in order to get in the doorway
james/ca - Though, Kat, I have found that great feasting after a particular victory may be apparent
jilli - Prizes work.
Ann - eraser - you are exactly right :)
Beth Bruno - Eraser, will you say more about what you mean about reminding children about their successes. It's such an important point.
james/ca - Being the first to understand a difficult concept is the greatest prize
jilli - James, that is celebration, not a reward.
debi - What is the difference between prizes and candy?
max - I find that I have to teach my students the skill of building a sense of community within our classroom
Kathleen - again, I agree (feasting), I'm talking about realiance upon food for conditioned response :-)
james/ca - exactly jilli
-=êrã§êr=- - ..that success is not based on Pavlovian theory
al-IA - the points are earned for helpfulnes, curtiosy, or job well done. I try to write a note of encouragement, too
max - celebration vs. reward??
Beth Bruno - Max, how do you build that sense of community?
Ann - I don't give prizes either - we are total Title I - if I give something, everyone gets one - It has always reminded me of the kid that never gets picked for a team - My own son is ADD, and there are some students who would never receive a prize
Mary K&1 - I believe that there is no reward more powerful than sincere praise for a particular job well done, no matter how small it may seem to be.
james/ca - bell rings, students march out of class, students are shot, so much for pavlov -=êrã§êr=-
-=êrã§êr=- - Beth...I teach behavioral and learning disorder kids....I always tap into a success they can relate to...this helps them through a crisis period
Kathleen - I think candy as a reward introduces other factors that can be a problem, food for some people becomes destructive and unhealthy
james/ca - Praise, Mary K
jilli - I give tons of prizes and build a sense of community.
max - depends on the needs of the group; usually consist of student generated "rules" and structured play and learn times, with consequences set before needed, and by the children; it is their room, I faciliate and direct
Ann - Mary K&1 - especially if the student respects your opinion
Beth Bruno - We also need to recognize progress and effort - not just getting right answers. For every child, success comes in a different form.
Kathleen - is there a difference between praise and positive appraisal?
al-IA - The one time I tried food. I gave everyone a chance to win. I chose the name from those who had followed the directions of putting their name on the ballot
max - Ann, the student with the most "problem" doing what is expected is the one that needs the most reward to shape that desired behavior
james/ca - Jilli, I take orders from needy students, and like a good waiter, if the GREAT COOK makes this order possible, I'll serve it up....yard sales are great for this
Ann - max - I agree, but when I deal with 6th graders, they don't understand the concept of that student getting something and not them
-=êrã§êr=- - James...Who is the Great Cook?
Sherriff Barett - prize drawings don't help usually several people end up winning every time
Beth Bruno - There is also motivational value to a student during an interaction involving constructive criticism - kind of shining lights on some new directions he or she might take with an assignment.
Mary K&1 - Kathleen, in may mind they are the same (praise & positive appraisal), I think - change my mind
james/ca - All, I learned something very powerful for my life from my grandmother...'don't ever beg', not even for your life
max - I have 6th graders presently and it is hard, harder for the little guys, but my students have a "pea@#$%" that takes 100 points (catch you doing good) and as soon as it is filled up they get to pick a prize (immediate reinforcement)
Beth Bruno - The difference between praise and positive appraisal to me is that praise is a reward and positive appraisal is a process.
al-IA - this particular 7th grade has been demerit-ed to death. I thought a positive would turn them around, but no go
james/ca - Beth, it takes much trust to even get to the path of students being able to take critique on a constructive basis
Ann - Kathleen - I have never really thought about it, but I think I think they are different :)
james/ca - well said beth, positive appraisal lead to the path
-=êrã§êr=- - as an art teacher...my little ones are asked to "take an art bow" aknowledging a great contribution to the discussion...they glow!!!
Kathleen - al, do you think they just need more time to trust the new approach? or not?
max - I agree james, but the trust is the absolute that is needed to work with my population!
Beth Bruno - I agree, James. Building trust with students is a teacher's task all year long - of course, it's a two way street. And building trust with parents is essential, too.
debi - Do any of you have a problem with candy for rewards for winning teams when you play games??? Team have can have up to 6 on them.
james/ca - -=êrã§êr=-, when you are the first, the bow is implied
Mary K&1 - Telling a student that you like how he/she solved a problem or helped another - is that praise or positive appraisal?
Kathleen - Ann, I think so too. I think too often praise is empty and not really motivating, but honest appraisal that is encourging is more productive
max - eraser, any one of your kids would glow with you, you are so intune!!!
-=êrã§êr=- - James...and Max I stuggle everyday
james/ca - max, it's called HTML with-it-ness
al-IA - Kathleen, I sub with this class, so can't really say. They are all terrible behaviorial problems. Reg teachers are mostly at wit's wend with them
Kathleen - debi, I think that sometimes candy is ok in situations such as you describe, but maybe health factors, allergies, etc would cause us to make another choice.
Mary K&1 - I have a problem with using food as a reward for anything
Kathleen - oh, al, it's really difficult when you are a temporary teacher with a group like that. very difficult. hmmmm
Ann - Kathleen - I think sincerity is a virtue - they know if I'm not sincere and nothing I do will work
Beth Bruno - Al, what kinds of behavior problems are you encountering in this class? Give us one or two examples.
james/ca - I must say that I never have used earthly carrots in a reward scheme
max - I use to refuse to use food, or any tangible rewards, but I learned that with my population it is a different process
Kathleen - Mary, that would be praise I believe. If you took it apart and said something specific about the measures used (strategies used to solve the problem) I see that as appraisal. nes pas?
Beth Bruno - Sometimes you have to divide and conquer - trying to figure out which one or two children might be stirring up an entire group.
Kathleen - LOL james, depends upon the composition of the group I guess.
max - JAMES< I HAVE; one year we always had green snack"; served something that got the energy from the sun, combined it with language arts and science daily!!!
al-IA - Beth, they will not quite down. They argue about every instruction that is given. Like I said it is not just the subs that can not control this class the reg teachers have a hard time
-=êrã§êr=- - I use the "I caught you" scheme and develop a list on the board..."I'm telling on you" ...you were polite. You were helpful...etc
Kathleen - yes, Beth, and what works at early childhood level certainly can't be relied upon to work with middle school aged kids
Kathleen - eraser, I like the idea of positives on the board. Very much disagree with listing negatives on board
Ann - 7th graders are a breed unto themselves :)
Beth Bruno - Do we have mostly elementary teachers here tonight? My school psychology assignments have been in elementary and middle schools.
Ann - al - what subject?
Kathleen - Early childhood here
james/ca - positive reinforcement -=êrã§êr=-, that is the way, this is how the mob works, if you get a call home, it's no television for the rest of your life
jilli - I use food all the tim. but I will tell you the thing that motivates the studentd the most is when i am interesred and concerded about themn as as person. One minute ot talking solves lots of problems.
debi - yes, early here
max - I have been teaching K-6 the past 6 years Beth
Ann - 6th grade here :)
al-IA - With this group you can not publicly tell them they did something well. the others would "eat them alive"
-=êrã§êr=- - I try to avoid noticing negatives...so many of my kids are institutionally housed...its all they hear
al-IA - Ann, I sub
Beth Bruno - When students get too loud, I whisper. It's remarkably effective.
snads - I have successfully used for years Madeline Hunter's positive reinforcement techniques - rewarding positives and ignoring as much negative as possible. Have never seen it fail.
Mary K&1 - Doesn't everyone like to be made to feel valued and appreciated and approved? This doesn't change with age, does it?
max - good point Mary
Ann - I have special things in my room like a kaleidoscope, a wizard, awesome books - when a student does a positive thing, they get to use one of these
Beth Bruno - Positive recognition, of even the smallest thing, can start something incredibly positive - that keeps pn growing.
Kathleen - so much depends upon the attitude of the teacher. The ones who don't trust kids or are unaccepting of them, who rely upon focusing on negative behaviors and reacting to that continue to have trouble. al, I don't mean you, you are in a different kind of situation. No opportunity to build a sense of trust and community as a sub.
james/ca - jilli, but I sense that food is the eventual outcome of your lesson....like in my lesson, 'how to deal with large arthropods with lemon and butter'
Kathleen - Mary, I agree. Seems some adults forget that.
al-IA - Beth, I have tried that with these kids and they say "We didn't hear you "
Ann - I also give pencils with positive things written on them :) I love the one that says, "You are Awesome."
Mary K&1 - One day a month or so ago, I lost my voice - I had to whisper - the whole class ended up whispering - it was very interesting
james/ca - Beth, I have only held onto the positive throughout my life......
-=êrã§êr=- - I love it when a kid has sense enough to remove himself from a situation and goes to sit in my special chair...gathers thoughts and returns when ready...
al-IA - snads. sounds good. What if there are so few positive behaviors no ne notices
Kathleen - Mary, ME TOO! this week, I had laryngitis, they adjusted their voices too! so cute
james/ca - Ann, pencils?
Ann - Yes, I buy them by the gross :)
Kathleen - I agree with snads about ignoring (extinguishing) as the first step
Beth Bruno - Appeal to student curiosity, to their sense of wonder - introduce mysteries and surprises - keep them wondering and guessing - that's all part of generating a learning atmosphere in a class, I think.
Kathleen - Yes, Beth, you said that well.
james/ca - ann that would appear to others as a class distinction among commonalities
Ann - Something else that seems to work for me is my sense of humor - the kids really relate to that
al-IA - Kathleen, I can not believe that all the teachers these kids have are feeling that way. This class has a rep and no one can seem the break it
max - I am in a school that is totally negative, get in your face, put downs and exclusion as an intervention. I am not like that and I am being eaten alive.
Ann - james - it might under normal circumstances, but I furnish all pencils in my classes so a kid is never without one :)
james/ca - Beth, my secret has been, keep the ball rolling
Kathleen - james, I didn't undertand your point about the class distinction among commonalities. ??
Beth Bruno - Eraser, you're so wise. Many students need a place to go to calm down or just get away from all the stimulation sometimes. Do most of you have a quiet place a student can go if need be?
Kathleen - al, there are groups like that.
max - I do
james/ca - kat, a pencil is a common object, it's giving a blank piece of paper with a star on it
Ann - Beth - not at my school - the noise is unbelievable
debi - Keep the ball rolling, that is good for me too.
james/ca - -=êrã§êr=-, all my time outs are self motivated as well
-=êrã§êr=- - Beth...My special place is NOT a time out...It is special Its a chair I brought in from my art studio...its where I used to sit when I didn't know what i wanted to paint..it was a safe place...I want my kids to have that too
Beth Bruno - So true about humor. My worst days with students are the ones that have started badly for me even before I got into the building. It's sometimes hard to leave a bad mood outside.
al-IA - I missed sone of this what is keep the ball rolling
max - I have a corner with lots of pillows
Kathleen - eraser, do the kids ever fight over it? sounds like the place where I would like to spend MY day ;-)
-=êrã§êr=- - ...A couple teachers borrow the chair...like it has calming powers...LOL
Kathleen - al, don't give them time to be negative :-)
Beth Bruno - Yes, Eraser, I understand. I wasn't thinking of a time-out - that sounds punitive - I was thinking of a place to contemplate, too.
-=êrã§êr=- - Kathleen...never a fight yet!
al-IA - Thanks, Kathleen
Kathleen - can Time Out ever be non punitive? depending upon how the teacher uses it? (I hope)
-=êrã§êr=- - Beth...I understand...:)
Beth Bruno - We had a rash of pregnancies among the teaching staff one year. Must have been that special chair. :-)
Ann - I have a reading corner with zebra carpet, but the teacher next door blows a whistle to manage her room so it gets a little noisy :)
max - I think it is in how it is used Kathleen, I like to call it "time away"
Kathleen - Must have been a love seat!
-=êrã§êr=- - YIKES!!! LOL
Beth Bruno - She blows a whistle?
al-IA - I read some class has two contemplation corners. One for a cool down and one for think time. Both voluntary
Kathleen - a whistle??
james/ca - -=êrã§êr=-, I have not assigned a negative connotation to 'time out' have I, my time outs are to assess and collect personal energies before a big push, like when some student finds themselves at a loss for words
Mary K&1 - Kathleen, yes it can - a time to think, a time to calm down - Time Out doesn't have to be negative
Ann - Beth - I hope not - we had a rash of student pregnancies last year
Mary K&1 - The thinking spot
Ann - Kathleen - you heard me right - can you believe that?
Kathleen - al, what grade is this difficult group and is it self contained? No, must not be, you said many teachers have trouble with this group. Too bad they can't be assigned fewer teachers.
Beth Bruno - I think we're all in agreement about the quiet place being a positive space.
james/ca - I have yet to literally blow a whistle, it's far to military oriented
Ann - al - what subject?
-=êrã§êr=- - james/ca ...but in my school, other teacher use time out as a jail space...completely negative - even kids standing in a corner - how's that for broadcasting "I cant do a thing with this kid"
Ann - I blow a whistle, but I do it to break up fights outside of the classroom
al-IA - Ann, I sub.
Beth Bruno - One of the teachers in my building played softly on her flute to gather attention. It was beautiful.
Kathleen - I suppose again we should never say never to a whistle. Maybe in the extreme case (like al's) that would be an attention getter once. but as a day to day technique, yuck.
Ann - al - do you have a box of goodies you take when you sub?
james/ca - beth, way positive, it's a coveted place, I mean in the sense that how students can covet the ethereal
max - Our setting has a progression we must use that includes a time out built-in area (1/2 wall) a time out roomm equipted with a spring lock, and from there to a security guard manned "opportunity lab";
Kathleen - standing in the corner???
max - whistle would quickly loose effectiveness if not paired with ????
Beth Bruno - It really bothers me when I hear about teachers holding bad behavior up to the rest of the class to shame a student. What could that possibly accomplish?
Ann - 7th graders love word puzzles - at puzzlemaker.com you could invent one using terms they are familiar with - like N'Sync :)
-=êrã§êr=- - Kathleen...am I showing my age?
al-IA - Ann, yes, I do , but I very rarely get to use them with this group because never accomplish much
max - Beth, further damage to an already damaged child...
Kathleen - shame and humiliation serve no purpose at all IMHO
Beth Bruno - there's a software program that accepts a bunch of clues for a crossword puzzle and creates the grid. It's really neat.
Kathleen - eraser, what are you, about 21? ;-)
Ann - al - another good thing is one of those packages of a zillion little smiley face stickers - I walk around and put one on their hand - they end up in the neatest places, noses, ears, :)
al-IA - Kathleen, as a matter of fact the science teacher whistles at the kids. When I sub for him, I flick the lights to end activities
max - al, can you build in success and reward them at the first approximation of doing what is accepted, then fade as they start to do better
-=êrã§êr=- - http://www.puzzlemaker.com <Ann's link to puzzle maker
Ann - eraser - thanks :)
Kathleen - al, what could you walk in and do that would totally blow their minds in a positive way, like get a big laugh, then work from there? What subject do you work with when with this group?
james/ca - beth, kids brains are like a derailuer on a ten speed bike, they change gears so fast that often, an awaited punishment will not fit the student's present psyche, I find that it is the adults in a shool setting that teach children how to become the Floren
Ann - al - art is always good - I don't know of many middle schoolers who don't like art - maybe a thumbprint activity - press their thumbs in ink and then let them add lines to make something
al-IA - I have used puzzlemaker, using the students names are the words. That was somewhat successful.
Beth Bruno - We still have five minutes, but I want to invite any of you to write to me with ideas for future chats. My email address is: bbruno@snet.net
james/ca - adults in a school setting are the ones who teach students to become the Florence Nightengale of nursing grudges
carrottop/GA - I have been following the conversation. When my kids get noisy I sit down in the front of the room, put my finger over my lips and stare at them. They get quiet very quickly.
Kathleen - james, I agree
max - students do model the behaviors they see!
Kathleen - carrottop, but what age are the kids?
wondering - what grade do you teach, carrottop?
james/ca - But carrot, you have always followed your own lead......
carrottop/GA - 8 and 9 , 3rd grade
Ann - I also have one of those looks that can whither a snake :)
max - carrottop, you have worked hard to get that kinds of respect from your kids, way to go!!
Ann - max - there you go - the bottom line :)
james/ca - well said max
wondering - how long have you been teaching, carrottop
Beth Bruno - Depending on the age of your students - write a proverb on the board - just for students to think about. They need lots of opportunities to think in the abstract - to wonder - everything doesn't have to be spelled out for them.
al-IA - I tried stickers once. Placed on completed homework. Later found them on desks, walls, and film projector.
Kathleen - carrot, do you think that would work with middle school kids? al is having a very difficult time with that age group as a substitute (one class in particular)
max - and I am use to having it james, and now I don't :0((
al-IA - Ido want to thank you for your ideas. I will keep trying
Kathleen - al, I think that age is beyond being impressed by stickers
-=êrã§êr=- - Max = my hero!
max - al, your job is one of the toughest, and what will work one day certainly won't work the next time, good luch
james/ca - Kat, I started my last school in a church, this implied a certain amount of reverence and respect was implied, now all my classrooms are wholly holy
Ann - al - I put the sticker directly on them and smile while I'm putting it there - Do you know, there were actually students who drew back at that slight touch the beginning of the year? Sad
carrottop/GA - Kathleen, I think they are very difficult at that age. You have to do something to establish respect. That would be the only way anything is going to work. Oh, the kids have to know you really care about them.
james/ca - Beth, abstraction is my anchor!
Beth Bruno - Thanks for all your insights, everyone!
Kathleen - carrot,great point, they have to believe that you really do care about them
Beth Bruno - Great chats at teachers.net. I look forward to them.
james/ca - Beth this goes far to instill knowledge of 'the futility of absolutes"
Ann - Thank you Beth - I read the articles that were posted - thanks for being here :)
max - respect is the key, I agree; respect both ways!
Kathleen - Thanks, Beth! See you next month! :-)
Beth Bruno - Good night, all
