Join a Mailring at the
Teacher Mailring Center
http://www.teachers.net/mailrings/
Beth Bruno - Hi all, Tonight we're talking about educating gifted and talented children in the classroom
Beth Bruno - In regular education - not pull-out programs.
Beth Bruno - Gifted kids are often rebellious kids, too. Any of you find that to be true?
Kathleen - Beth, thank you for selecting this topic. With so much attention being paid to "raising standards," many of the most talented students might not be getting the programs THEY need
canuk - I have a second grader who reads and understands to grade 6 and is 96 percentile with WISKR. Problem is, when you put a pencil in his hand, you would think he wa delayed
Kathleen - Yes, gifted kids can push buttons, precocious
Beth Bruno - very few states provide special programs for especially talented students anymore, so we need to serve them in regular classes. How do we do it effectively?
Kathleen - ah, so a major discrepancy there, canuk?
Beth Bruno - Motor skills of intellectually capable students can lag behind their brain power. Maturation takes its own sweet time.
Kathleen - canuk, do you mean his fine motor coordination, or his ability to express himself in writing?
Beth Bruno - In fact, gifted students often have widely disparate skills, so they may be great in math and terrible in reading for example.
canuk - Yes, how do you program for a gifted kid who cwnnot put more than a sentence or two - expression also dissapears. He can tell you orally, but there are words misiing in his writing, so it makes no sense
canuk - He is also fine motor challenged
Beth Bruno - There are many ways to keep the high level of oral expression coming, while teaching to his lower skill levels in fine motor ability.
Beth Bruno - Kids who can do some tasks with great ease, find those that are hard for them especially frustrating, so they might avoid them.
Kathleen - canuk, have him transcribe from his own oral, on tape?
wizzlewolf - I have lots of students like that. They score very low on "tests", yet to speak with them or discuss ideas and concepts, they express an obvious brilliance. Many can't write a paragraph or even read one for that matter.
Beth Bruno - I wonder if kids practice writing less, now that they spend more time with mechanical games.
Kathleen - canuk, did I make that clear? If he has strong oral lang., let him speak on tape, then have him write from that
canuk - transcribing would be painfully slow with his motor abilities. And next year he has to face the dreaded standardised tests
Kathleen - canuk, can he type it, word process?
Kathleen - Why not have an adult transcribe from his oral?
Beth Bruno - Is this bright student (orally) eligible for occupational therapy support, do you think?
Kathleen - Have him OT screened
canuk - Beth, most of the rest of the class are fine with writing. Kathleen, we are starting to try that. At the moment he is slow tyuping, but we are getting him to do TYpe to Learn at home with a borrowec lap top
Kathleen - I fear we're turning more kids than ever off to writing with too-high expectations too soon
Beth Bruno - Canuk, this student may need lots of practice that the parent can help support at home - imaginative practice, fun practice, but still PRACTICE!
canuk - He is having OT support, but it is not helping enough to make a difference in the class
Kathleen - canuk, I guess the point wouldn't be so much that he does the typing. As long as he communicates, it is recorded, he reads and shares it...
Beth Bruno - this example is fascinating. My neighbor's son was very much like what you describe. He spent two years in kindergarten because of it. but then was way ahead of the others academically.
Kathleen - canuck, I'm sorry, how old is he again?
Kathleen - Boys like that can be turned off to school and learning which is tragic because they ARE bright and have much potential
Beth Bruno - we turn some students off with expectations that are too high. then there are others we turn off because we don't challenge them enough. it's such a difficult balance
canuk - The school is in a high-end SES district, so most of the kids are producing volumes of written work. This kid is smart and is beginning to compare himself. We also have a high proportion of kids with great artistic skills, again he makes comparisons despite a great emphasis on MI
canuk - He is 7
Beth Bruno - kids measure themselves against peers very young - I think they hear their parents making constant comparisions, too, don't you?
Kathleen - oh, writing is so challenging for many 7 year old boys, imagine how frustrating it is for his body to have difficulty keeping up with his mind.
Beth Bruno - My daughter was very aware that she could read much earlier than other kids. sometimes she would pretend she couldn't, because she didn't want to be so different.
Kathleen - wizzle, what do you think? How can canuk help this boy?
Beth Bruno - she taught herself to read, I think. we read to her, but she already could read independently before age three.
canuk - his parents are great. Dad was a professional athlete, so the boy has been in schools all over the map. He is a very together boy, and makes friends instantly
Kathleen - canuk, I hope that positive attitude can survive
canuk - There are four other kids reading that level, but onlty one has the overall IQ for gifted designation, so he has peers in reading
Beth Bruno - It sounds like this boy has a lot of strengths, canuk. Is he patient about working on this one tough skill area?
Kathleen - canuk, can you do something such as have him concentrate on producing speeches on topics related to curric rather than written reports?
Kathleen - otherwise known as oral reports
canuk - We have an assortment of project type assignments and oral presentations with groups, so that helps, but he wants desperately to show his stuff on that exam
Beth Bruno - what are some of the other concerns people have about serving especially capable students in their classes? any who have unusual artistic or musical abilities?
Kathleen - I have a student, age 6, who can draw VERY well. She is also strong in reading.
Beth Bruno - does the art teacher contribute to planning for your artist?
Kathleen - I'm providing books and pics of art work, but don't feel qualified to do more than that to nurture her talent
canuk - I don't want to add to stereotypes, but there is a strong asian community within the school. Many of these children appear to have talents that surpass the others. At what point do you use "gifted" in this respect
Kathleen - we're lucky if the art teacher sees the kids twice a month, 30mins each time. often fewer and less time
canuk - talents in art that is
Kathleen - I think some cultures focus more upon arts, awakening natural talent
Beth Bruno - It's sad that the art program is so minimal - many teachers tell me that!
Kathleen - The arts are being eliminated with budget cuts. So there goes meeting the needs of kids with those talents.
Kathleen - sorry, I keep confusing my 2 identities
Beth Bruno - I think the talents that we see from Asian children are partly products of highly motivated, involved parents, who emphasize achievement and hard work.
Beth Bruno - Are music programs getting the ax, too?
Kathleen - And children who are exposed to art are more likely to have their talents awakened and refined
canuk - So how do you identify gifted in the visual arts?
Kathleen - yes, music too.
Beth Bruno - But never cuts in sports, right? (a touch of cynicism here).
Kathleen - good question, canuk, because talent in the visual arts might not always show as a talent with drawing, right? color, compostion, even photography...how would we know early on that a child has a talent for the art of photography unless s/he has the opportunity to use a camera?
Kathleen - No, athletics = sacred cow
Beth Bruno - There are many assessments for visul-motor integration skills, but artistic talent is very tough to quantify.
canuk - And unless one has the training, how can one identify that potential?
Beth Bruno - visual-memory, spatial perception, ability to reproduce complex designs with blocks, pencil/paper, clay - many ways of recognizing and tapping it, but again, hard to quantify.
Kathleen - We have to be keen observers, note what the child leans toward as his/her method of expression, find ways to nurture
Beth Bruno - excellent questions about visual and artistic skills - underscores the importance of offering students a variety of experiences and modes of expression, so we learn about their many, in some cases hidden, talents.
Kathleen - those multiple intelligences again...
Beth Bruno - When you have professional days - that offer workshops to teachers - are some of the issues we're discussing addressed?
Kathleen - These days most prof dev is focused upon developing literacy skills, so narrow!
Beth Bruno - Do speech, OT and PT consultants in your district available to consult with teachers about some of these questions about individual students?
Kathleen - consultants available, yes
Beth Bruno - oops - grammar alert. ARE the aforementioned consultants available?
Kathleen - still yes
canuk - Academically oriented giftedness is discussed, not so much artisticallu gifted. Our consultants seem tied up with remediation
Lori - canuk, it's the same in my district
Beth Bruno - what are some of the social and emotional issues that gifted students display?
Kathleen - I think there is a feeling that gifted students can wait, or aren't hurt by lack of special programs for them. But I also believe that too many of our drop-outs, fail-ers, are underchallenged, misunderstood gifted kids
Beth Bruno - I hear from a parent often whose son is now in high school. He was so bored in school that he got angrier and angrier. He took the anger out on himself by making a suicide attempt. It was quite a wake-up call for help!
Kathleen - When they are n't being challenged, or allowed to investigate and explore, they often become disruptive, or withdrawn,
canuk - I have been luicky in that most of the gifted kids I have worked with have not showed the frustration that can occur. One littlke girl, though had immense difficulty socialising, but the in a straight grade, she did not have any peers, so what would be the emotional reward for her to make the effort?
Lori - My most frustrating task is convincing teachers not to discount academic strengths due to a student's behavior problems.
Kathleen - yes, they are often isolated from peers, more when older students
Beth Bruno - Canuk, do you think whe would have fared better in a multi-graded class?
Beth Bruno - In my daughter's school a pull-out program was started in first grade (for gifted students). The parents hated it.
Lori - Often, it seems behavior which might be an indicator of "feeling different" or "unchallenged" is viewed as a strike against the child rather than maybe an indicator of student's needs.
Beth Bruno - The kids hated it, too.
Beth Bruno - e district changed the model and gave teachers the training they needed to make curriculum adjustments for the brightest students.
Lori - Beth, I was a teacher of a first-grade pull-out class. And I hated it, too!
Beth Bruno - That worked much better.
canuk - She was reading "A field guide to dinnosaurs " in grade one, so I don't know if that would have helped. She did mini research projects and interacted with the others through presentations. Playing or conversing wiytth the others was just too frustrating for her
Beth Bruno - Thanks, Lori. I'm glad to hear that. It makes no sense to me to separate children from their perr group at such a young age.
Kathleen - Lori, EXCELLENT point! (not to discount academic strengths -and other strengths- dues to a student's behav problems)
Beth Bruno - My spelling fingers are busted tonight!
Kathleen - Beth, so you're not a gifted typist, you have other gifts
Lori - That was my major objection! All children benefit from good teaching (and the GT curriculum which was often viewed as something more fun).
Beth Bruno - I'm trying to figure out how to help a student whose parents speak Spanish. the boy has a weak teacher and strong reading skills. the teacher has no patience with the parents.
Beth Bruno - I think her lack of patience is related to her frustration in not being able to talk with them.
Kathleen - get him with a different teacher?
Beth Bruno - I wish I had heard about the problem earlier in the year. It seems a little late to make a teaching change now.
Kathleen - At this point in the year I guess just surviving, but make certain he's placed with a more compatible teacher next year
Beth Bruno - Maybe I can find a sensitive translator to sit in on a couple of parent meetings - just to build some understanding to get them through the rest of the year.
Lori - It sounds as if there are very few spanish speakers in your community?
Kathleen - Also, get the parents into a class to learn English
Lori - We have a Korean family and a translator comes from downtown offices to translate for meetings. But I do work for a large district.
Beth Bruno - Actually there are many Spanish speakers, but also a lot of anti-Hispanic sentiment. I think that might be part of this and one reason why I'm just hearing about the situation now.
Lori - Sounds as if the language barrier is the least of her problems. So sad!
Kathleen - So, does tracking at the middle and secondary levels benefit the gifted student?
Beth Bruno - I guess I brought up this situation, because gifted students from bi-lingual, poor or poorly educated families are often missed -
Beth Bruno - Their parents don't know how to work the system or how to advocate for their children and biases within the school or within teachers can work against them. Do you see this, too?
canuk - Beth, is that because the kids don't "do school" as well, so may not have the outward trappings?
Kathleen - Definately, they don't know how to deal with the system, don't get services, due process
Lori - My district deals with many different cultures. It's interesting to learn that how different cultures perceive the news of a gifted child. When they are asked to complete parent surveys they usually underscore their child's abilities so as not to be bragging.
Beth Bruno - Yes, Canuk, plus Hispanic children are often taught to acquiesce and not question adults. Their parents often don't push either, for many reasons.
Kathleen - Beth Bruno's article in the April edition of the Teachers.Net Gazette: "Serving Gifted Children in the Classroom" http://teachers.net/gazette/APR01/bruno.html
Beth Bruno - Great point, Lori. Cultural differences play a strong role with this population of students.
Kathleen - Transcript of chat with internationally respected GATE guru Dr. Joe Renzulli: http://teachers.net/archive/gate011100.html
Kathleen - National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented at http://www.gifted.uconn.edu
Beth Bruno - That's an excellent chat to review - the Renzulli one.
Kathleen - Nurturing Social Emotional Development of Gifted Children. ERIC Digest E527. Webb, James T. http://ericae.net/edo/ED372554.htm
Beth Bruno - I have a lot of mixed feelings about tracking. I think it serves high achievers better than kiddle and lower ones.
Kathleen - Building a Bridge Between Gifted Education and Total School Improvement by Joseph S. Renzulli http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0788137123/teachersnet/
Beth Bruno - o, I don't think there is enough fluidity of movement between tracks, so students wind up getting pigeon-holed entirely too often.
Beth Bruno - I meant "middle" - not "kiddle".
Beth Bruno - Teaching Gifted Kids in the Classroom by Susan Weinbrenner
Beth Bruno - Gifted Kids Survival Guide by Judy Galbraith
Rich - I think not tracking makes a lot of sense, except for the top and bottom 5%. Gifted kids are the top 5%!
Beth Bruno - Have we thrown enough references at you yet?
canuk - When I went through school in England, we had to take an exam at age 11 that tracked you permanently into academic/non academic
Beth Bruno - Canuk, don't you think age 11 is too early to make such decisions?
canuk - Way too early. Then the teachers pretty well ignored those that hedn't got into academic for the rest of the year. (the exam was at Easter
Beth Bruno - How did this hour go by so fast?
Kathleen - Our moderator tonight was Beth Bruno. Take a look at her new book, Wild Tulips: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970843003/teachersnet/ and at http://teachers.net/gazette/APR01/authors.html
canuk - Thanks for all the resources!
Beth Bruno - fore you leave, I want to brag about my new book - Wild Tulips. It's about raising kids - the humor, challenges, triumphs - about all kinds of kids! available at amazon.com
Kathleen - hyperlink to the Gazette page about Beth's book, Wild Tulips: http://teachers.net/gazette/APR01/authors.html
Beth Bruno - Thanks Kathleen,
Beth Bruno - guess we're on the same wavelength tonight.
Lori - Beth, does the book focus on specific age groups ?
Kathleen - Beth's book is LOVELY and very readable. I recommend it! And it would make a nice gift for mother, teacher..
Beth Bruno - Have a good weekend everyone. Thanks for all your helpful comments.
Kathleen - Beth, Lori has a question about your book
Kathleen - Thank you to all who participated. A good discussion!
Beth Bruno - Lori, my book talks about early childhood, early elementary and some about adolescence - quite a span.
Kathleen - Feel free to stay on if you wish to continue discussing the GATE topic.
Lori - I'm a teacher of kinder , first and second graders. A mom to 12 and 14-year olds identified gt.
Beth Bruno - Lori, I think you would enjoy Wild Tulips very much.
Rich - My school district is making an effort to service Hispanic gifted students. I teach 16 of them along with 26 English based gifted children in a
canuk - Lor, how were your kids identified
Beth Bruno - Hi Vickie, we're all signing off now. The chat was from 9 to 10.
Rich - middle school setting.
Lori - My sons were identified by DCAT tests in 1st grade. Now our district uses the naglieri iq test.
Beth Bruno - Rich, I'd like to hear more about your school and program. Will you write to me about it? bbruno@snet.net Thanks
Beth Bruno - So long for tonight.
canuk - Lori, do you feel it was genetic, enriched environment, or what. Bye Beth
Lori - probably some of all of that.
Lori - I feel that there is definitely a genetic component. But environment has such a tremendous impact.
Lori - That's why so many kids are missed.
canuk - How do your kids feel about themselves now?
Lori - The definition we use is from the Joe Renzulli model. It's an overlap of creativity & problem solving skills, academic ability, and task commitment. Academic ability is probably the only one that cannot be taught and enriched.
canuk - task commitment! Self chosen or school oriented
Lori - They don't take academics as seriously as me. But I am a teacher. Sometimes, I'm frustrated by their lack of commitment to school. Right now it's just doesn't seem to be their thing. They both do well. But have so much to offer.
Lori - The task commitment we are looking for is more of a self-control issue. Taking a task and working through to the end. A difficult task for most adults I know much less children.
canuk - And then you have gifted/ADHD that does not fit the bill!! Gotta run guys. Thanks for all the interesting info.
