Kathleen - Teachers.Net welcomes Sheldon Cashdan, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and author of several important books in the field of psychology and psychotherapy, including the book whose topic we will discuss this evening, The Witch Must Die : How Fairy Tales Shape Our Lives (Basic Books)
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, is there a basic formula required for a story to be classified as a fairy tale? What makes a fairy tale if there is no fairy in it?
Sheldon - There are some common elements: magic, child under duress, travel to a strange place, and a happy ending. Doesn't necessarily have to have a fairy.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, did any one culture produce more fairy tales than others? It seems we are very familiar with those of European origin, but are there as many tales from African, Asian. Latin cultures?
Jennifer - The parent is these stories often seem to be either bumbling or just downright evil
Sheldon - Every culture has supplied its share of fairy tales. Some trace their beginnings to Persia and India. But what's interesting is how similar many of them are.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, when fairy tales have counterparts in other cultures, is that the result of the tale having traveled? Or do you believe that similar stories grew coincidentally and simultaneously in various countries because of the common human faults and frailties?
judy - Dr Cashdan did you relate to Jack and the bean Stalk in your book ? If so how did you relate it to psychology and Freud
Sheldon - A combination Kathleen. Certainly many travelers spread the stories, but family dynamics depicted in FTs are common to many cultures.
Sheldon - Judy, I devote almost a whole chapter to Jack. I see the story as a tale of greed -- Jack really doesn't need the golden harp, does he? But he goes back anyway.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, has there a period in time that for some reason spawned more fairy tales than other periods? Can you say how old the tales are? How far back can any tales be traced?
judy - But Dr. Cashdan, how can we use the story of Jack to resolve the present day conflicts of children
Sheldon - I don't think scholars have found any one time in which FTs predominated. But almost all of them started off as adult entertainment, and had what in olden days were considered x-rated themes. And those have always captured people's attention.
Kathleen - Are the familiar versions of the most popular fairy tales very much the same as the original, or would we be surprised to read the early versions of tales like Cinderella, Jack and the Beanstalk, etc.?
Sheldon - judy, many FTs address common conflicts children have: greed, envy, gluttony, etc. Jack and the Beanstalk in particular can be used to address issues of greed.
Sheldon - Kathleen: Very surprised. Early versions of Sleeping Beauty include rape; an early version of Cinderella has her murdering her stepmother. A bit of a departure from Disney.
Kathleen - Since fairy tales were written for adult entertainment, their value in helping children work through conflict and fears is incidental or an unintended side effect, correct?
judy - Then you seem to have taken a different turn to Battleheim, it seems
judy - I teach inner city kids, and sometimes they are not interested in fairy tales; however if we can use it to teach them virtue; then that's great!
Sheldon - Right Kathleen. But adults and children share similar concerns: envy, greed, etc. But it's true the tales were changed to appeal to a child audience.
Kathleen - Is it possible the original tales WERE share with mixed age groups that included children. They do seem intended to help form young people's morals.
judy - How much is your book
Kathleen - Perhaps before the Victorian era, children weren't excluded from hearing such tales?
Kathleen - Read about and order The Witch Must Die : How Fairy Tales Shape Our Lives at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465091482/teachersnet
Sheldon - Judy: Definitely. Bettleheim focuses on the oedipal, whereas I see this as only one aspect of fairy tales. I think that conflicts about lying, overeating, stealing, etc. are as important if not more so for the young child.
Kathleen - judy, at what age are the students who aren't interested in fairy tales?
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, in Appendix I of The Witch Must Die you list fairy tales that address specific problematic character traits and issues that trouble children. For example, you list tales that address themes such as vanity, envy, deceit, greed, suggesting that the tales can be used to instruct. Do you advocate use of fairy tales by parents for assisting with the moral development of their children?
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, how are fairy tales being used in psychotherapy?
judy - Well I am indeed glad I joined tonight's chat.
Sheldon - Kathleen: I think that FTs should be enjoyed as entertainment first and foremost. A lot of what they have to offer kids occurs on an unconscious level. But if child picks up on an issue in a story, then parents certainly can explore it with them.
judy - Kathleen i teach 2nd grade
judy - Some of these kids have grown up before their time and have already left the world of fantasy; too much responsibility at a young age.
Kathleen - judy, your second graders don't enjoy fairy tales?
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, does Appendix I list tales that would appeal to judy's students?
Sheldon - kathleen: I'm not sure if they are to any great extent, but I have used them to great advantage. Patients of mine have used aspects of The Wizard of Oz to talk about their perceived deficiencies in intelligence, feelings, and courage. We all have a some scarecrow, lion, and tin man in us.
Sheldon - Kathleen & Judy; I don't think adults or children ever outgrow a need for fantasy. Witness the enormous success of the Harry Potter books.
Kathleen - Pinocchio has always struck me as a rather adult tale, very dark and sinister elements. Is that one tale that hasn't been changed much from its original version?
judy - The kids in this district are into fighting a lot. They seem o have short term memory when it comes to behaving themselves .
Sheldon - P.S. Appendix I does contain tales that would appeal to 2nd graders and older.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, recently fairy tales have been viewed as sexist, perpetuating handicapping fantasies among girls and women. How do you respond to that concern? Do you believe that fairy tales should be rewritten to fit the times and to appeal more to Judy's students?
judy - Is this book available at barnes and Noble
Sheldon - Judy: a lot of teasing in school revolves about things like looks and brains (who is smarter). A number of tales listed in Appendix 1 address these issues.
Sheldon - Judy: Book is available at B&N, Borders, and other bookstores.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, I'd like to comment that your book is an "easy read" while being fascinating.
Sheldon - Kathleen, what you say is true, but using FTs as a way of discussing these issues can be growth enhancing. Also, there are a number of tales -- old and new -- that counter sexual stereotypes.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, why are so few of the many fairy tales known to us?
Kathleen - Dr. C. what is the most common theme or thread in fairy tales?
judy - This is true for the American society, as I have discovered; however I am from the islands and fairy tales were the order of the day.
Sheldon - Kathleen: Many have been left out of children's storybooks because they are too sexual. The ones that have survived, I think, are the ones that have the most psychological meaning for children.
Kathleen - judy, which islands and were you exposed to a rich background of tales in the oral tradition, or did you read them?
Sheldon - Kathleen, the common theme in fairy tale is that of a child pitted against powerful forces in the world. The hidden meaning as i see it, is the struggle with powerful forces within the self.
judy - Even at night time the older folks would sit around and just relate stories with out reading from a book; those were the good old days. The island is Trinidad which was under British rule until 1962
Kathleen - Dr. C, why do you consider The Wizard of Oz "a fairy tale not only for our time but for all time"
Kathleen - judy, do you know whether that oral sharing is still happening in Trinidad? Or has television taken over there too?
judy - TV has ruined it all for us; the sexual content introduced to children at too young an age is devastating!
Sheldon - Kathleen: The Wiz addresses three universal themes: wish to be intelligent, to have feelings, and to be brave. I think these concerns shape our lives from childhood way into the adult years.
judy - I might be old fashioned but I preferred when it was camouflaged
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, I agree about the Wizard being a tale for all times. It is also a favorite of mine. Do you have a favorite, based just upon your aesthetic appreciation, or perhaps memories of childhood?
judy - Dr Cashdan do you know the poem of Annabell Lee
Sheldon - Kathleen: I think my favorite from childhood is Snow White because of its rich imagery. As an adult, I've come to appreciate Cinderella, not the Disney version, but the older one in which the child relationship to her dead mother forms the core of the tale. It is truly one of the most poignant fairy tales there is.
Sheldon - Judy, I remember it from childhood and that it was by Edgar Allen Poe. Something about losing his love to the sea, I think. Can you refresh my memory?
Angelesea - In my area, there are many people who consider fairy tales to be damaging to children and accuse teachers of being new age if they use fairy tales in their classes....is this a common problem these days, or am I in an isolated area that still looks for witches to burn?
Angelesea - I believe that there is much to learn from fairy tales.
Sheldon - Angelesea: Where are you from?
Angelesea - Southwestern Pennsylvania, small rural community
judy - Oh it is the most beautiful poem about a lost love indeed. As a child I listened to my father tell the poem in his most beautiful voice; and as he spoke all the images formed in my mind floated as if on clouds.
Kathleen - A parent sharing a story with a child does create a sort of magic :-)
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, what do you think you have added to the discussion of fairy tales which Bruno Bettleheim began?
judy - I am such a strong believer in fairy tales. I keep telling them to my children no matter what
Sheldon - Angelesa: I think there is a difference between the witches in classic fairy tales and new age Wiccan witches. Some feel the latter are evil because they dance nude and engage in other rituals that are difficult to comprehend. But I don't think they promote evil deeds.
judy - Kathleen are we getting a certificate for participating in tonight's discussion?
Sheldon - Judy. I'm with you.
Kathleen - judy, if you e-mail me following this session as explained earlier, yes:-)
Angelesea - Sheldon, I agree.
Kathleen - Dr. C., does evil prevail in any fairy tales?
Kathleen - Perhaps in the earliest versions?
Sheldon - Kathleen: I feel that my approach to FTs broadens their value, extending them beyond mere devices to resolve Oedipal conflicts.
Kathleen - It's interesting that something as old as fairy tales could be considered New Age
judy - Dr. Shelly, do you talk about Aesops' Fables as well in your book?
Kathleen - I was very surpassed to read in The Witch Must Die about the early version of Red Riding Hood in which the wolf kills and slices up grandma, then offers the meat to Red Riding Hood who eats it!
Sheldon - Kathleen: Not really. Evil gets its just desert in every fairy tale I've encountered. Oops, there is one. The Jew in the Thorns, a fairy tale in the Grimm Brothers collection, does tell of a Jewish merchant who is executed merely because he is Jewish.
Kathleen - Yes, I appreciate that you take a broader view than the sexual in your examination of fairy tales, including the simple pleasure of hearing a good story
Sheldon - Judy: I briefly talk about Aesops fables in the book, but I really don't see them as fairy tales.
Kathleen - Do you know, have fairy tales ever been used as reading texts in earlier times, considering their potential for moral instruction?
Sheldon - Kathleen: The version of REd Riding Hood is one of many versions of the story. I particularly like the Grimm version in which there are two wolves. For some reason, that one is rarely included in children's storybooks. I'm not sure why.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, Jane Yolen comments about your book, The Witch Must Die: "...offers a clear-headed and fascinating view of fairy tales and psychology, walking that thin red line between the abuses of enchantment and the New Age adoption of faerie." I know that you live in the same area as Jane, have you collaborated on any work?
judy - Are these stories all written out in your book. If not where do I get copies of these different versions of the same story?
Sheldon - Kathleen. The Perrault stories (Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Puss in Boots, etc.) all came with little moral statements, sometimes poems, at the end.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, The Witch Must Die : How Fairy Tales Shape Our Lives makes me wish I had more time to investigate lesser known tales, and earlier versions of the ones I know well!
Kathleen - Judy, the last chapter gives good references to sources of tales
Sheldon - kathleen: Jane and I haven't collaborated on any work, but I'd love to be a co-author of hers. She is terrifically creative.
judy - Thanks
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, what would you like your last word about fairy tales to be?
Sheldon - Don't rely on Disney. Get the originals - they are available in most bookstores -- and read them to your kids and your students. They deserve no less. Thanks for having me.
Kathleen - Dr. Cashdan, we are honored that you spent this hour with us. Thank you, and I hope you will return for another chat sometime. :-)
Angelesea - Thank you Dr. Cashdan.
Sheldon - My pleasure. I'd love to come back.
Kathleen - Good night everyone!
