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Kathleen - Welcome to a discussion concerning Student Cheating with Beth Bruno, School Psychologist. Beth's homepage has information about her education, experience and extra-curricular activities at http://pages.cthome.net/insights
beth bruno - I'd like to introduce myself. I'm a school psychologist in CT and have worked with students from Pre-K through high school. In the past couple years I've been writing articles for various online publishing sites.
Kathleen - beth, we appreciate your being here tonight, and I especially like having another Connecticut-ite here:-)
Kathleen - Tom, is cheating a problem among your students?
beth bruno - Tom/Texas - Do you get pressured from parents to make exceptions to the rules if their student(s) is caught cheating?
Tom/Texas - Our parents are not real involved. But our staff spends a lot of time working with these kids on ethics.....something that is missing in their lives.
Tom/Texas - The cheat on most anything......pilfering extra food in the lunch line, stealing from teachers.....so cheating is not a big thing to them.
beth bruno - Do any of your high schools have a student honor code?
AMAN - Not honor code. 35% student population at risk. Student agenda makes cheating a three step crime.
beth bruno - What do you mean by a 3-step crime, AMAN?
AMAN - Ist time caught in class 0 on asignment or test, 2nd time same class suspension and o, third strike and you lose credit.
AMAN - Many of the students in our school believe there is nothing else besides cheating- and that's on everything. You should hear from our compulsive liars.
B-Ga. - I am a retired teacher and cheating, stealing was rampant in my school and no one seemed to be able to do much about it. The parents did not seem to care about their children doing these things. I think the parents may be encouraaged them to do some of it.
Tom/Texas - If one of my students is caught cheating, it's a zero and their paper is tossed in the trash.
Kathleen - Is it important to understand the reason why kids cheat, or should we just deal with it as it happens regardless of the reason?
AMAN - If the parents are promoting the winning at all costs- then they must have succeeded by cheating as well.
beth bruno - In my daughter's school, when some honor students got caught cheating, their parents begged teachers to overlook the "first offense" and the teachers gave in! What do you do when the parents pressure you?
B-Ga. - I used to do the same Tom and my principal was furious that I would do that. He had to deal with the parents who came to complain that I was not being fair.
Merlyn/MD - I teach elementary, so I went and got the Academic Honesty Policy from my daughter who is in 9th grade in Baltimore County
Tom/Texas - Kathleen........I don't think we can point the finger at any one reason for cheating.......anyone can see that there is an across the board dillution of morals in this country right now.
AMAN - I agree Tom- but now you are addressing the area of trying to teach morality in the classroom.
beth bruno - I agree that teachers need to stay consistent and teachers also need administrative back-up
Tom/Texas - DGA........I can understand your frustration. Another of our country's problems is a lack of shame and a philosophy of........I will get my way if I raise enough racket.
B-Ga. - I think we may have several generations of immoral parents is some cases. Parents cheat themselves of food stamps, each other and at work so how can the kids believe that honesty is the best policy when they see their parents cheating and stealing and bragging about it?
Tom/Texas - AMAN.........and that seems to be against the law now. I can understand religion not being sanctioned in the classroom. Who's religion do you teach? But the moral aspect of days gone by was very helpful.
beth bruno - AMAN - is there a problem with teaching morality in the classroom? I think we all do it.
AMAN - Oh yes Tom, I've got parents that know one important law and threaten me with harrassment if I point out there son or daughter cheating.
WTSnow(sd) - There is something we've kinda overlooked here
Kathleen - Isn't it alright to teach ethical behavior in the classroom?
B-Ga. - I think you teach ethical behavior if you are ethical and moral in your classroom. I used to try to teach by example.
AMAN - Especially disheartening is when they enjoy putting each other down to raise themselves up.
Tom/Texas - This is going to be a tough discussion.
Merlyn/MD - Kathleen, is there a "good" reason for cheating? Also what do you mean by cheating? The policy my daughter has mentions copying homework/classwork, submitting someone else's work as yours, looking on another's test, and plagiarism. I know a lot of kids who copy homework & classwork or copy from books for reports. Is this the kind of cheating you mean?
WTSnow(sd) - WE OURSELVES have cheated at one time or another, and it was no doubt to keep from havin our parents go down our throat about grades. We, Beth, there might be a reason why students cheat, but I am not condoning their actions (or mine in the past)
beth bruno - B-GA - That's so true. Students pick-up on what their parents do a lot more than what they say they do!
AMAN - I agree and I do whenever I get the chance BB. I am ready to defend what I do in my classroom with any parent or administrator. But sometimes I get depressed when the parents belittle me over cheating.
Tom/Texas - I guess most of us have cheated at some time or another but...........we knew, going in, the consequences and the potential embarrassment.
beth bruno - I think teachers have to let students know which assignments they can collaborate with friends on and which ones are supposed to be their work alone
Kathleen - No, not a "good" (ie acceptable) reason..but I wonder if the consequence or remedy is different between 2 cheaters, one who will be beaten at home if a grade isn't acceptable, and #2 who is just lazy and/or unethical
B-Ga. - You as a teacher must stand up for what is moral.
Tom/Texas - Much of this reminds me of that trendy decal in kid's car windows. "NO FEAR." It is an anthem for this generation. They aren't afraid of anything.
beth bruno - My husband, a school superintendent, thinks that faculty meetings should be about subjects and issues like these, rather than whether the wastebaskets are emptied at night.
B-Ga. - All teachers are not moral people, so they can not expect their students to be moral and honest.
Kathleen - LOL! beth! I agree with your husband!
JeanneD - Unfortunately many students will reflect attitudes and examples set at home. Is there any proactive measures we can take at the elementary level to stress the importance of honesty ?
Tom/Texas - This actually happened in the adjacent classroom two months ago. A student was caught red handed cheating. The teacher took the kid's paper and the kid said, "The President cheats......why can't I?"
Merlyn/MD - I can see where the pressure to get the "A" would cause some kids to cheat. In some areas the grade is the most important thing and they will do almost anything to get it
Kathleen - Tom, that is more the result of hearing adults claim that what the Pres. does can cause others to emulate
beth bruno - We can help students separate rules at home from rules at school. School is their turf and they can learn what's allowed in school even if home rules are different.
B-Ga. - Be an honest teacher with your students. They will rely on you if you show by example. Don't threaten students.
B-Ga. - I agree with Beth.
Tom/Texas - Our kids read about people cheating in other areas of life and see nothing wrong with it. Then they read or see some story of someone returning a bank's stolen, lost money and that person is held up as an idiot.
beth bruno - In my daughter's high school some of the teachers join the competition to assign high grades to the kids they want to be top in the class. Arggh!
Merlyn/MD - Has anyone ever had a "contract" with the students and have it signed by student, parent and teacher about this subject and the consequences of cheating?
JeanneD - I hope I am honest and consistent with my students. And yet there is a population that I wish we could really know we were reaching with these ideals.
Kathleen - Yes, I agree that students can adpat to the school environment, even if values in the home are very differet. How do teachers inspire or motivate kids to do that?
Tom/Texas - Either or Kathleen.........the man set a bad example.
B-Ga. - The parents have to deal with the president issue, but even then, some parents don't think he did anything wrong. Even some educated people seem to think it is not wrong to lie as the president does almost every day.
beth bruno - Merlyn - I think it helps to ask all parents to sign that they've read the school policy about honesty or academic integrity. Do your schools publish a handbook that explains the policy to parents?
Merlyn/MD - Our country is full of bad examples, but that is no excuse for someone else to do the same.
Kathleen - Tom, I agree, but I'm sure we won't be letting students get away with that cop out :-)
Tom/Texas - I agree MD.
Merlyn/MD - Yes, we have student handbooks that are given at the beginning of the school year and they are written on different levels for the different grade levels. It deals mostly with violence and drugs for high schoolers
Tom/Texas - I remember back in the 60's, I did a book report on a auto-bio of a movie star and got a C. The kid next to me read a "Classics Illustrated" and got an A. It's frustrating for the honest kids because they don't want to rat.
beth bruno - I read that some students cheat because they're threatened with physical harm if they won't. Have any of you encountered this in your schools? I guess I'm asking about kid's rules of the "streets".
Kathleen - I guess it would be helpful if not only educators discussed these topics but students, too. How many high schools require kids to take ethics course?
AMan - We have students that will steal homework papers to copy. Some students are threatened if they don't give up their papers.
JeanneD - Kathleen, we probably should have more student input on these topics and let them know we value their responses.
Mr.C - Good point Kathleen. I think some sort of philosophy re: ethics should be taught from very young ages on up... not necessarily as an entire course... but... morality, right and wrong... would parents and churches be in an uproar feeling impinged upon?
beth bruno - AMan - What do you advise threatened students to do about it?
AMan - We have a freshman orientation class where the students examin rules, regulations, and some ethics of school life.
Kathleen - I encountered a student (gr 5) who hit me and ran onto the bus when I tried to keep him after school. I didn't know that his father would beat him up if I kept him after.
beth bruno - That's an excellent point about offering ethics courses and engaging in discussions of ethics from an early age.
Kathleen - Mr. C, I teach kindergarten, and I know that at my level and primary there is a lot of teaching about "ethics" (at their level, of course). In high school, it seems the teaching (discussion) should be very specific, explicit.
Mr.C - There's another issue Kathleen... what is going on at home. Indeed... that's where morality springs from... and if a kid is being beaten... what other lessons are they learning? BTW... how badly beaten? Aren't you obliged (both ethically and legally) to report abuse?
AMan - I tell them to discuss the problem with me, but even though I know how the students are, many of them refuse to speak.
beth bruno - Do students routinely plagiarize from the Internet? I know some teachers have stopped assigning reports because of it.
Kathleen - AMan, that sounds like a wonderful idea, but maybe it should continue throughout HS years for everyone. Why not, the time could be put into prevention rather than putting it into reaction, punishment
Merlyn/MD - My elementary school had a value of the month last school year. We stressed it in all the morning announcements and in posters. Kids were rewarded for displaying that behavior. I'm not so sure it did any good. Not doing it this year.
AMan - Even though we must report abuse- that can put you into a situation where your good name can be ruined in a heart-beat by a student or parent.
Mr.C - Good question Beth... it is indeed easy to pull info off the Net... and students right off the bat have to be taught what plagiarism is... and how to use the Net to supply *evidence properly documented with an address*... but the students have to supply argument and opinion... (topic sentence, evidence, argument)... gets them headed in the right direction.
Kathleen - Mr. C this was more than 24 years ago, and I let the kid go, something told me.Today I would look more into it for sure.
AMan - Kathleen- I have recommended having the students in a team for their years in high school- that way a class like this can be given as a basis for their (the students) high school career. That way the teachers can take a more active role and learn those little quirks or the students and their lives at home.
Kathleen - Merlyn, maybe we have to be more direct, more explicit teaching about what ethical behavior is.
Kathleen - AMan, I think that the school-within-a-school approach must be a better support system for kids, good idea
beth bruno - I reported an abuse situation that a parent shared with me by phone - I was the counselor of that parent's child. The parents were incensed and threw me off the case. But they were also embarrassed about the investigation and engaged a private counselor
Mr.C - OK Kathleen... I won't turn you in this time ;-)
Merlyn/MD - But Kat, it upsets me to know that this is what our world has come to. That cheating is not important and who cares - do it and don't get caught
Kathleen - Mr. C. that kid is with me still :-/.
AMan - It's amusing sometimes. My students want to do extra credit reports. Many times I will smile and tell them if I wanted to get some information I would pull up the ENCARTA like they do and read about it so they wouldn't have to copy it for me.
beth bruno - My point about the abuse report was that often some good can come from it, even if it's not immediately evident.
Kathleen - Merlyn, yes it is upsetting, so we have to be proactive..start young and keep at it, expecially during those years when kids are tested and tempted by so many bad influences
beth bruno - AMan - Sounds like you're wise to a lot of student tricks!
beth bruno - I also like the school-within-a-school idea, so that one team of teachers gets to know one group of students well - I think it works well in middle schools or high schools.
Kathleen - or in large primary/elem schools. Schools that are large are poor for everyone, I believe
beth bruno - Do you think portfolio assessment reduces cheating?
TOM/TEXAS - Since I am in an Alternative School, my work is not in the mainstream. The problem I face daily with my kids is their feeling that the world OWES them.
Mr.C - How about shifting the thread away from the issue of cheating and towards the idea that we need to motivate the students to want to become self-learners... *collaborate, facilitate and motivate* rather than mandate and require. If students aren't enjoying learning... they are viewing it as a contest... an ends instead of a means.
TOM/TEXAS - My students are from the lower socio-economic strata.....they have the Welfare Mentality. They, pretty much, bring nothing to the classroom. They get free eats, we provide pencils, paper, etc. Having said that, they think they should be given passing grades as well. But don't think all is lost. Although they are all trouble makers......they are not all cheaters.
Mr.C - What are you doing to motivate them Tom? I have the same group under my charge... I've got these kids out on the Net exploring, and having fun doing so.
TOM/TEXAS - We have the computers but are not yet hooked up to the net. Mr. C......my kids are so low in reading, I don't know if they can handle the net but I am willing to give it a shot.
Mr.C - Your thinking is backwards Tom... the Net can be used to get the kids psyched to read.
beth bruno - I'm back. Had to sign on again. Was frozen out, too.
TOM/TEXAS - Mr. C........I mean their reading is LOW.....2nd....3rd grade level. And, they tend to vandalize anything they touch.
beth bruno - They don't vandalize the computers, do they?
Kathleen - if they had great experiences via the computers, would they want to vandalize them or protect them?
Mr.C - I don't agree Tom... I know what you mean about vandalizing... but kids won't vandalize computers if you have a drop in lab... they know they're valuable.
TOM/TEXAS - Our comps are in the room. And friends, these kids will steal a hot stove ........ but I will give it a try. If they swipe anything ....... it isn't mine.
beth bruno - Personally I didn't think I'd find Internet communication very personal or friendly, but I was totally wrong about that. Kids learn the same thing. Cyberspace is awesome!
Kathleen - I think a lot of boys especially, have to be helped to find something good about school. Add low parental expectations, low aspirations, deprived backgrounds, makes it worse for them, more challenging for the teacher
Mr.C - And I know about teaching kids on third grade level... when I started on the Net I had 9th graders who read at 3rd grade level... I joined a listserv, had students right about Richmond (their inner city lives)... and posted it... three months later I had students published in school papers all around the country and world. When I showed a student that he had been published in Finland... he lit up. Somebody actually cared about what he said enough to publish it. These kids have been told all their lives that they are stupid and worthless... what else do you expect them to be? So... are you going to help them... or continue to give up on them?
Addie k/mo - tom, what age are these kids?
TOM/TEXAS - Addie........15 year old 8th graders.
Kathleen - wow, TOM, tough age.
Addie k/mo - that must be frustrating to work with kids at that age with such low skills
Addie k/mo - i would think that kids at that age would be very motivated by computers and internet, my son is that age and he loves it. I would think it could help them improve their reading skills
beth bruno - Before everyone signs off - I just want to say I've enjoyed talking with you. Let's do this again! Any favorite subjects you want to discuss?
Addie k/mo - i have always thought that with little kids, cheating occurs because of lack of self confidence or survival, not really a moral decision
TOM/TEXAS - Mr. C.......when did I say I was giving up? If I was giving up I would have done that when I started this 8 years ago.
Kathleen - TOM, and you wouldn't be here, right? Mr. C is encouraging you, sometimes cyber talk w/o inflection is misleading:-)
Mr.C - You sound defeated Tom... I've seen it... reread your posts about the kids... they're all negative... how does that translate into the classroom? What are you doing with the kids to get them going?
Kathleen - beth, the needs of the kids from low s-ec groups, too broad?
beth bruno - Kathleen, do you mean their learning needs?
Kathleen - well, their learning needs are tied into their soc ec/deprived backgrounds. What do you think?
beth bruno - The biggest challenge I've had with low soc-ec kids is with their parents, who are tough to get involved because they often have had bad experiences with schooling themselves.
Mr.C - I'm challenging Tom somewhat... I know about the inflection thing... and I think that it's a very tough position to be in... I don't think Tom has really given up... I just would like to know what his day like is at school... does he look forward to starting the day or dreading it? I've been in both places myself.
Kathleen - TOM, Mr. C, what topic would be helpful for a next session?
Addie k/mo - beth, and often times the parents just dont have any expectations for their kids....they just dont see a way out of their circumstances
beth bruno - Is teacher burn-out an issue here?
TOM/TEXAS - Mr. C.....I don't think telling the truth translates into being negative. I was a lousy student myself. I push these kids everyday. "We read til we bleed." I tell them that they were sent to me because they got into trouble not because they were stupid. They can be anything they want to be.
Kathleen - beth, I think burn out is a problem for many, for me on some days :-/
beth bruno - That's such an important message, Tom. the message to a student that he or she can be anything they want to be.
Mr.C - I think "Burnout: Teachers, Students, Parents and School" would be a good topic.
beth bruno - Addie, what would you like to see discussed at a future chat?
Mr.C - and/or How to *Not* Burnout
Addie k/mo - i agree, tom...you will have to say it over and over! the kids have probably heard so much negative and i think i read somewhere that it takes 25 positive statements to counteract one negative (or something like that) but it was a lot
TOM/TEXAS - I often feel like outside things are hurting my kids. There are a lot of things we could do with our kids to help them if the govt and the law would let us.
Kathleen - TOM, Mr. C, will you try to come to another session? You are good participants.
Mr.C - I come all the time Kathleen...
TOM/TEXAS - My pleasure........
Kathleen - Yes, TOM, we have to be so careful about litigation, it inhibits us from being involved sometimes (too often), right?
Mr.C - Good point Tom... problem is... these kids are targeted by the law and govt. as "perps"... and that's how they see authority (most often) in an adversarial position.
Addie k/mo - maybe strategies for working with MAJOR problem behaviors!!! this comes up on the mailring a lot and i think it would benefit people
Kathleen - Addie, good idea. Do you think we would have to do it by levels, though?
beth bruno - Good night, everyone!
Kathleen - beth, thank you!!!! I'll be in touch!
Kathleen - Thanks, everyone. This was a good discussion. This is what we are about.
Addie k/mo - L8R!
Kathleen - Good night, thank you for participating in another Teachers.Net professional development session.
