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Kathleen - Welcome Harvey Daniels, guru of Literature Circles!
Kathleen - Meet Harvey Daniels, author of Literature Circles: Voice and Choice in Book Clubs & Reading Groups
harvey - Thanks for the plug, Kathleen.
harvey - Good evening friends
Kathleen - Thank you for agreeing to participate, harvey. Teachers.Net is honored to have you with us this evening.
Kathy/IA - Hello Harvey! I'm so excited to have this opportunity. I've been using literature circles for quite a while. Your book changed my whole career!
mia - I use your book all the time, it's very helpful
kbzil - The book has changed our school, thanks
Patricia - I am president of the Reading Association in my county and tomorrow evening we will have presentations on literature circles
harvey - Patricia, what county do you represent?
Kathy/IA - Patricia - nice to meet a fellow president! I'm co-president of a council in Iowa.
Patricia - Its a pleasure to meet you Kathy IA
Patricia - I am President of the Winston-Salem NC Chapter of the IRA, Forsyth county NC
Kathy/IA - Harvey, I'm currently a staff developer. Many schools use guided reading in grades k-6. I've used literature circles with my former 5th graders. Could you speak on how to include both guided reading and lit. circles in a balanced literacy classroom.
Terry - To those presently using, what percent of your reading instruction are you using LIT circles?
harvey - In our Chicago schools, LCs alternate with individual independent reading -- and total maybe 1/4 of the curriculum at mostne
kbzil - Our 3 and 4th grade teachers are using it for most of reading instruction combined with the teaching of specific strategies
harvey - Guided reading is really different from independent reading, of which LCs are one delivery model.
Terry - kbzil, where are you from?
harvey - I'd love to hear how you've made LCs so central. Here we feel we have so much else to balance!
Robin - how are the stories selected?
kbzil - FL
Patricia - I am very interested in hearing how teachers are implementing LC in their classrooms
Kathy/IA - Yes, I agree Harvey. Can classrooms do both - lit. circles and guided reading?
Terry - When I have "tried" them, I assigned roles and independent reading
Robin - What reading levels does LC work with?
Terry - I found it easier to use with my higher level readers, and guided reading and other tools for lower level
harvey - Yes, I think LCs and guided reading are two different and necessary activities in a balanced program (and Fountas and Pinnel would agree, I reckon)
harvey - Terry, here, we think the lower readers need LCs the most!
kbzil - I see LC as a beautiful way to teach all the different levels of readers. But never to exclude the explicit teaching in small groups is still a must.
Terry - Now that is interesting! Do you model a lot before you begin using them.
Robin - Might it work for my Spec Ed students who are Educationally delayed?
kbzil - Mode, model, model
Kathy/IA - Modeling is an important key at any level!
harvey - You bet -- that is key. We use live demos, video tapes, the works
Kathleen - Do LC fit with the 4 Blocks framework?
harvey - DEpends what your 4 blocks are -- with the Chicago version it works fine
mia - which books would be best for that level?
Terry - What I mean is just to model thinking, I am doing that so much right now. I believe I can start moving them into lit circles because I have taught them to pay attention to their thoughts .
kbzil - I started a form of Lit C with a first grade class through the use of four blocks
Paulie - what is the "Chicago version?"
kbzil - I used the Patricia Cunningham version and it was great
Kathy/IA - Do the schools you work with in Chicago use the roles all the time, or are they dropped once the kids get the hang of the discussion?
harvey - For our teachers here, their starting point is to read and understand Steph Harvey's Strategies That Work and/or the Mosaic of Thought (Keene and Zimmerman)
kbzil - I guess we called it book clubs at the first grade level
Terry - That is where I am Harvey, yes!
harvey - Yes, in our schools we drop roles quickly. In most classrooms we NEVER use them anymore -- we go straight to reading logs.
Kathleen - The Chicago version is 4 Blocks
kbzil - I think Mosaic of Thought could lead us all
Kathy/IA - Could you describe your reading logs?
Terry - When I tried LCs before, the students weren't thinking, now after using MOT strategies I think they will
harvey - If you can dig the actual pedagogy out of it!
mia - so you are saying the roles are to teach how to think, then eventually they get dropped?
harvey - We name and teach the strategies, but don't use the actual sheets so much --or for as long.
Kathy/IA - I knew my kids were ready to move past the roles when they would say things like "You know, I do the roles in my head now when I'm reading anything!"
Patricia - Pat Cunningham is great she's a professor at Wake Forest Univ in our town
harvey - Give Pat my greetings -- she's a wizard!
harvey - One of the biggest changes in the new edition of the book was all about this -- how to use role sheets carefully and move on to other response-harvesting techniques.
mia - such as a response notebook?
harvey - Exactly -- that or post-it notes right in the book, which is our fave now.
Kathy/IA - Yes, my students loved post-its!
Terry - So do you move away from roles and expect many things from each student?
harvey - Yes, Terry -- we ask every kid to respond in every way, not just the one on their role sheet for the day. If they know the strats (questioning, visualizing, etc) it is not hard.
mia - even after teaching responses, I'm still having a hard time getting "good stuff" from them, any suggestions?
Marcia/1st/GA - Do you have any suggestions for literature choices or roles for conducting literature circles with first graders?
harvey - Mia, what grade?
Kathy/IA - I found another key was to have thought provoking text.
Terry - Well verbally I have been amazed with my students, I am ready to move to the written response
mia - 3rd.
mia - I'm the only balanced literacy person in the school
Kathy/IA - They need texts they can visualize, question, etc...
harvey - Mia, You can read the primary chapter of the new book for free at http://www.stenhouse.com/0333.htm
Addie/mo - thought-provoking is a major key, because if the book isn't truly meaningful, then the kids don't have as much to discuss or as much to relate to
harvey - Kathy -- You are so right. The #1 cause of failed lit circles is bad books -- really!
mia - so which titles give the best success?
kbzil - Harvey will you be at the Natl Reading convention this year?
Terry - harvey are you in the classroom? I probably should know that, I have read one of your books
harvey - Terry, I am an old dull professor -- but I am in classrooms every week, stealing ideas from smart young teachers like you. Sometimes they even make me earn my keep by teaching. Luckily I can go home at noon and take a nap.
Terry - If I could be so lucky that you came in my room, and thanks for calling me young, LOL
kbzil - But there are books that really must be discussed. Good lit is the key
Kathy/IA - One of my best lit circles cycles was when I coupled it with a Civil War unit that the social studies teacher was doing. (I was departmentalized in 5th grade). We had 3 historical fiction novels going on the Civil War.
Paulie - give me an example or two of a bad book
Addie/mo - well, paulie, I would say that some books are better than others and have more meaning and depth
harvey - My Stinky Science Experiment (apologies to the author, but I've seen several groups struggle with it)
harvey - I'm feeling remorseful at saying bad books. I meant crummy books.
Addie/mo - maybe they are not really "bad books" but "bad choices" for this particular purpose???
harvey - Some paperback publishers do seem to be flooding the school market with synthetic books, written by committees, that do not seem to engage kids -- as opposed to real, gutsy Newberry style fare. Know what I mean?
Kathy/IA - Many books do not lead themselves to a discussion. If the theme is too cutsie - the discussion doesn't get far. For successful Lit. Circles I found the books had to be thought provoking. They needed to be ones that caused a variety of opinions, etc...
Terry - Some of you mentioned using your basal, are those interesting enough, spark enough thought?
kbzil - Cher we use both LC and Junior great books for our students and I think they are the best to create real readers
Cher - kbzil..thank you for that information
harvey - We should be sharing ideas about books kid LOVE.
Terry - what are some great books?
Kathy/IA - Another successful lit. circle cycle I had was based on the variety of Cinderella versions coupled with reading Ella Enchanted.
kbzil - I agree Harvey!
Cher - thank you harvey..I agree..I need information to take back tomorrow to process and use....where do I go for that information?
mia - harvey, I agree, but have trouble finding good literature for the struggling reader - again, 3rd grade...
lynn/sc/3 - I used my basal alone for one set of lit circles, and honestly, it was because I had to cover a lot of ground in a short period of time. Our subject was challenges met and overcome and we used Through Grandpa's Eyes, Legend of the Indian Paintbrush, Justin and the Best Biscuits, and The Lost Lake, all commercially available books that hit a variety of levels, just bound up in a basal. It was very successful
kbzil - Does anyone have any great ideas for historical fictions at the 5th grade level
Kathy/IA - What part of history, kbzil?
kbzil - Mia we chose Sara Plain and Tall, Sara Noble, and Caddie Woodlawn for 3rd grade and it added great variety of reading levels and lots to talk about.
Kathy/IA - For my Civil war unit we used Freedom Crossing, Ghost Cadet, and .... (I forgot the other one - it has been 3 years since I've been in the classroom, it will come to me!)
kbzil - Thanks Kathy, I was just about to say 1607 -1800
Kathy/IA - There are probably better Civil War books - I just happen to get a good deal on a set of books on a book order. (since I had to buy a lot of my lit circle books with my own money. bonus points came in handy!)
Terry - harvey, do you suggest both picture books and chapter books?
harvey - In Chicago, we use lots of picture books with primary, of course -- and sometimes surprisingly far up the grades.
harvey - In LC's kids should be reading books they can read -- and want to read. I have the lowest possible standards in that sense -- lots of easy and fun books! After all, many of us got hooked on Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, right??
Kathy/IA - My 5th graders had great discussions on "picture books" - again thought provoking. Eve Buntings books - a big hit! Fly Away Home, The Wall, etc...
Cher - harvey..I am trained for using Junior Great Books..I teach grade 2 and have 12 readers reading at 4th and 5th grade...how is Literature Circles different then Jr. Great book discussion and response material? and thank you in advance!
harvey - Jr. Great Books is a fine program of value to kids. It differs from LCs in that the teacher picks the text, the discussion is whole class, and there is more teacher guidance (as I have seen it done). LCs are more like real-world adult book clubs, I think.
Terry - Cher what is Junior Great books, I am not familiar?
Cher - Terry put out by the Great Books I guess company...for adults..then on down for grades 1-12....
JOOLS - harvey what do you think about revisiting a text when introducing a new aspect of LC
harvey - Revisiting -- absolutely - -assuming everyone in the lesson has read it, I guess.
Terry - Harvey with LC the teacher should never choose the text?
Cher - harvey...perfect description of the difference ..thank you...I understand...I saw post its and that is what we use in Jr. Greats...appreciate the input
kbzil - Isn't it OK to choose a set of books and then let the students pick?
harvey - I just wanted to mention if any of you folks want to do some live work on LC's we have a wonderful summer institute in the woods of Wisconsin. Check http://www.walloon.com
kbzil - I bet we could all fill that class fast!
Cher - hey..where in WI ..I am originally from Eau Claire...
Kathy/IA - I have always wanted to attend the Walloon Institute!!!
harvey - Nancie Atwell AND Steph Harvey will be at Walloon this year -- we are so psyched!
Kathy/IA - I had the pleasure to work with Anne Goudvis last year! I'd love to meet Steph!
Cher - Where is Walloon?
harvey - Lake Geneva, WI
Cher - thank you!
Kathleen - Walloon summer institute in the woods of Wisconsin. July 13-17, 2003 http://www.walloon.com. Presenters include: Nancie Atwell, Pedro Noguera, Harvey Daniels, Stephanie Harvey, Nancy Steineke, Betty Dispenza-Green, Mike Klonsky, Jim Vopat, Steve Zemelman, Marilyn Bizar, Sharon Draper, Nancy Doda, Dennis Littky, Bill Schubert and 20 more. Check out the website after the chat for additional info.
harvey - Geez Kathleen, you are amazing
mia - so since this is a new edition of the book, what have you revised?
harvey - What's new? About 50% of the book is new -- we changed a lot. Especially stuff on primary variations, assessment, book choice, and the use of tools other that role sheets to help kids prepare for meetings. We've de emphasized projects in favor of performance assessments which I think are really exciting and more accurate.
Cher - oh..harvey..that is great..I am still in the "projects mode" and want to get out of it....into something more substantial!
Paulie - I had many sets of books (5 copies) and had different kids come up and choose them Some kids did not want any but took one and their groups really suffered because they could care less. . . (I guess I am not just listening anymore lol) So how do you get all groups interested in a book?
harvey - Paulie, This happens all the time in Chicago, believe me. I hear you. That's a reality. Have you offered them really easy fun books (I'm sure you have)
harvey - Paulie: Some kids bring problems into our classrooms that are not of our making, and despite our best efforts, they leave with the same problems 180 days later.
JOOLS - paulie what about familiar rereads for this group
Kathy/IA - Harvey, I'm going to ask a "heavy" question. I'm helping some schools write their Reading First Grant. The strategies used need to have a scientifically research basis. One of my schools currently used literature circles and would like to continue. Could you point us in the direction of some scientific research that would fulfill the Reading First and NCLB guidelines?????
harvey - There IS a ton of research. Look in the first chapter of my book (free, remember at www.stenhouse.com/0333.htm and catch the newest additional refs for Dick Allington (isn't he the BEST?) in Moving Forward with Literature Circles (can't recall the authors) but it is Scholastic.
harvey - Kathy, In Chicago we call it the "No Classroom Left Intact Act".
kbzil - Dick Allington should be educational czar of the country!
Kathleen - Moving Forward With Literature Circles by Jeni Pollack Day
Kathy/IA - Yes, I've used that forward in some of my lit. circles classes. Is most of the research "research based"? We need the scientific research (control group/noncontrol group) kind.
harvey - I keep plugging resources here, but if anyone wants to be in touch later on, we have a very modest website called http://www.literaturecircles.com.
harvey - Yes, this stuff is "scientific." We also did a broader article in Ed Leadership in March 1999 (I think) called 60 Years of Reading Research that covers much of these studies. But remember -- qualitative studies of rigorous design also count as "proof." We cannot let the bureaucrats define for us what is meaningful research in our field.
Kathleen - 60 Years of Reading Research-But Who's Listening? by Harvey Daniels, Steve Zemelman, Marilyn Bizar in the PD Kappan http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kzem9903.htm (for after the chat)
Cher - harvey..is that the ASCD Ed. Leadership magazine?
harvey - There is another one in Ed Leadership in October!
Kathy/IA - This October. I probably have it right behind me!
harvey - Nope -- a couple of Octobers ago.
Kathy/IA - I have the last 5 years at the Office. I'll dig around tomorrow.
harvey - This is so important. We have a long and proud and rigorous research literature that is being disrespected by the DOE -- not to mention our professional (NCTE/IRA) teaching standards
Kathy/IA - Thanks, Harvey. That will help. The school I'm working with is having success with Lit. Circles.
harvey - Good -- lay those studies on them!
kbzil - So how do we support the research as teachers?
harvey - WE have to USE this research with Depts, school boards, everyone.
Kathleen - Rethinking High School (video) 1999 Steven Zemelman, Harvey Daniels, and Marilyn Bizar http://www.heinemann.com/shared/products/E00195.asp
kbzil - It is people like you and Dick Allington that need to be heard!
harvey - You guys are great -- come to Walloon and introduce yourselves!
kbzil - We as teachers see a difference
Kathy/IA - I've used Taffy Raphael's work on Book Clubs with some of my Lit. Circle classes along with Bonnie Campbell Hill and Katherine L. Schlick Noe. (Plus Harvey Daniels - of course!)
kbzil - I will definitely try to be there!!
harvey - Kathleen -- this has been fun. Thanks for including such a bad typist in your chat!
Terry - Maybe if I can use the research to get a grant to pay for the trip there, then gladly I'll be there
Kathy/IA - You video on Literature Circles has also been very helpful, Harvey!
harvey - We'll keep a chair open for you. Kathy, that's my pantheon too!
Terry - Thanks Kathleen and Harvey so much!
Kathleen - Literature Circles: Voice and Choice in Book Clubs & Reading Groups --by Harvey Daniels http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1571103333/teachersnet
Kathleen - Kathy/IA led a lit circles chat here on June 4 1998. The transcript is in the Archives. http://teachers.net/archive/literature_circles.html.
Kathy/IA - OH my - Kathleen. That was a long time ago!!!!!!
Kathy/IA - Thanks, Kathleen!
Kathy/IA - AND HARVEY!
Kathleen - Good night and thank you for participating!!
While waiting for the meeting to begin, the following discussion took place.
Kathy/IA - Yes, I've used Literature Circles as a 5th grade teacher. I'm now a staff developer. I've taught classes on literature circles and have incorporated them into many area!
kbzil - Do most of you use multi leveled books but follow the same genre?
Kathy/IA - I used a lot of picture books with my 5th grades. What grades do you have in your multiage, Robin?
Kathy/IA - I used lit. circles with basal stories.
Kathy/IA - The key is to get the kids discussing!
Robin - I have 3,4,5 graders who have a variety of levels from K.5 to 3.
Kathy/IA - I have used whole group texts, multilevel text, and multi books on the same theme. All worked well.
Terry - I think as I become use to the series I can do more with LIT circle
Kathy/IA - Short stories with thought provoking themes work well.
Kathy/IA - Do you have your multi group for full reading or are they also doing reading in the general ed classroom?
Nicole - Are you using a chapter book or one that can be finished in 1 sitting?
Robin - I have the 17 students for all subjects
kbzil - We use chapter books
Kathy/IA - When I did lit circles I included my special ed students. The special ed teacher would help out - whether it was inclusion into my room, or with them separately.
kbzil - But we introduce lit circles using one book for all as they learn the roles
Kathy/IA - I've used either, Nicole. Thought provoking picture books, articles from newspapers, etc... work well.
Terry - Do any of you assign yourself a job each setting?
Nicole - I used chapter books
Kathy/IA - I used the roles for a while, but did work the kids away from them. I had 5th graders.
Robin - with low level readers, content is hard. 2nd grade stories for street wise 4th graders is tricky
Terry - Kathy, without roles how do you do it?
Kathy/IA - You could, Terry. I now work with schools that concentrate on guided reading. Have the teacher in the group would help bring in more explicit teaching.
kbzil - We don't take a job in fact our role as teachers is to step back once they become independent
Terry - I was thinking it would be a great way to model
Kathy/IA - Once my 5th graders got use to discussing, saw the value in it, etc... if flowed naturally. When I started moving away from the roles I had the kids do a grouping of the roles. Like they wrote a question or two, had a passage ready, or had a connection ready.
Robin - Could you please tell some options of "roles" in the group.
Terry - Right now I am doing a lot of strategy lessons, and it will work well into independency in LIT circles I think
Kathy/IA - I had low level students, ELL students - Lit. circles worked well with all of them.
kbzil - I have also found that the mini lessons are so important to teach the strategies
