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Kathleen - HI, welcome to a chat meeting for ESL and Foreign Language teachers.
Kathleen - Will you each tell us about your interest in ESL or Foreign Lang?
Sandy/K/Ca - My most pressing concern regarding ESL is the rules that change faster than we can keep up with regarding prop 227 here in Calif.
Sandy/K/Ca - We jave vastly differing opinions of what is expected
Merlyn/MD - I am an ESOL (English for Speakers of Other Languages) That's what ESL is called in Baltimore,MD I work in elementary school setting and pull students from regular classrooms and tutor 30 min/day
Kathleen - Sandy, how does your situation compare to Merlyn's?
Sandy/K/Ca - I share a classroom with a bilingual kindergarten.
Sandy/K/Ca - I teach in English and she teaches in spanish. all bulletin boards, notices and books are in both languages
Kathleen - Would you share what languages/and cultures you work with?
Merlyn/MD - I have students ranging from Pre-K to 5th grade. This year I have mostly K and 3rd.
Sandy/K/Ca - our children interact together for 50 minutes a day
Merlyn/MD - This year I have students that are from Mexico, Pakistan, Korea, VietNam and Western Carribean.
Kathleen - Maybe you can investigate how similar the rules and conditions are in your 2 states???
Merlyn/MD - Sandy, do you have children who all speak the same two languages?
Sandy/K/Ca - our students are mostly from Mexico, though I have a few from Laos and Nigeria, Samolia
Merlyn/MD - I would expect that you have many more students in your school than I do. I work in Three schools each day!
Sandy/K/Ca - 50% of my students speak only English, while the rest speak Eng and Spanish but get their instruction in English only, My partner has students who speak mostly Spanish and not enough English to do school work
Sandy/K/Ca - We have 1300 elementary students 40% of the school speaks spanish, either only spanish or Eng and spanish
Merlyn/MD - I am expecting two new students next week that speak very little English. In our elementary schools we have the pull out program but in middle and high school we have centers and the students go there for ESOL. In the elementary schools, when a student arrives with little or no English, it is rough for the regular classroom teacher.
Sandy/K/Ca - we have a small population of Laos and therefore enough to qualify for a Loas teacher to do pull outs and teach in their primary lang.
Merlyn/MD - WOW, what a big school. The elementary schools I work in have between 300 and 400 hundrend students each.
Merlyn/MD - In Baltimore, we do not teach in a second language. We only teach in English
Sandy/K/Ca - many of our student don't speak any english when they come to us
Sandy/K/Ca - our state is in the process of changing how we have been teaching students in their primary language instead of only English
Merlyn/MD - Our school system has three liasons that help our Asian, Hispanic and Russian populations. Russian is our largest ESOL population.
Merlyn/MD - Sandy, don't you think total emersion is a bad way to go?
Merlyn/MD - That's not what I meant. I meant to say "Do you think total emersion is a bad way to go?
Leo/UAE - The UAe society is a multi-national society. English is used on a wide scale here.
Sandy/K/Ca - The problem isn't that emersion is good or bad but that each school and each class is doing it so differently. there is no consistency or follow up and little push to exit them into English
Leo/UAE - The UAE government realized this fact and is giving a great attention to ESL here.
Merlyn/MD - Are you in southern Cal?
Sandy/K/Ca - yes, San Diego
Leo/UAE - Students used to learn English from grade 4 , now students start their English from grade 1.
Sandy/K/Ca - we are right on the border
Merlyn/MD - No wonder you have so many spanish children
Kathleen - Victoria, just 'jump right in"! This is very informal:-)
Leo/UAE - Mother language of students here is Arabic.
Merlyn/MD - By the time they graduate,m how fluent are the students, LEO?
Kathleen - Victoria, Sandy is frustrated with changes and inconsistency in ESL programs in California. How are things going in NM?
Leo/UAE - Fluent enough to communicate with others about what they need.
Leo/UAE - ...and to prepare them for their college studies...
Victoria - Here is NM, ESL and bilingual ed have some support.
Merlyn/MD - I wish that we were doing that here, I mean teaching a second language in elem. school. My daughter didn't begin her Spanish until 8th grade.
Victoria - Since OCR has stepped in the past few years, things are changing, and all Limited English Proficient students are served, and from what I can see, they are served well.
Leo/UAE - The syllabus which we use here focuses on the communicative approach rather than grammar and writing....se, we teachers have a problem when correcting the written works!
Victoria - I enjoy teaching Spanish, for 1/2 of my class, Spanish is their heritage lang. For the other half, Spanish is a second lang
Merlyn/MD - Are the English teachers native English speakers Leo?
Leo/UAE - Merlyn, in the public schools they are not native speakers.
Leo/UAE - Students in private schools are as fluent as native speakers because they have all subjects in English!
Merlyn/MD - I suppose it's the same here, the Spanish and French teachers are American!
Kathy/5/IA - I have several ESL students in my classroom. Just looking for ideas to help them. 4 come from Spanish speaking homes, 2 from Vietnamise (SP). They are reading at about the 2-3 grade level in English (in a 5th grade classroom)
Leo/UAE - Most teachers in private schools are native speakers.
Merlyn/MD - I'm confused Victoria, you teach half a day in Spanish and half in English?
Merlyn/MD - Kathy, I suggest that you give each student a buddy to help them until they can understand basic/survival language.
Kathy/5/IA - I have Merlyn. They are doing quite well. :0)
Leo/UAE - My 4 children are in a private school. They speak English fluently. They even dream in English!! It's true!:ýLOL!
Victoria - Yes, Merlyn, I am teaching in a dual immersion classroom.
Merlyn/MD - And you, Leo. How's your English?
Merlyn/MD - That sounds very interesting, Victoria. Where did you learn to speak Spanish ?
Leo/UAE - I was a translator for 14 years. I translated more than 1000 TV hours for TV stations and cinemas....
Victoria - I grew up in a bilingual household. My family is Native New mexican, and has lived here in NM, and has spoken Spanish and English for about 3 generations now,
Merlyn/MD - You are very lucky. I wish I could speak another language fluently. I guess I am lucky that in Baltimore, ESL teachers only need to speak English!
Leo/UAE - I need English native speakers to improve fluency..
Kathy/5/IA - Most of my ESL students can read English well, but comprehension is lacking. Any suggestions?
Leo/UAE - Kathy, use the tape recorder and reading comprehension passages..
Victoria - In NM, There is a difference between ESL and Bilingual teachers, a big part of being an ESL teacher, is only speaking in English
Kathy/5/IA - Could you explain more, Leo?
Victoria - If an ESL teacher is speaking in the childs home language, then the child would wait for the input from the teacher in their home language.
Merlyn/MD - I have that problem too Kathy. One student can decode words beautifully but hasn't a clue what many mean. I have been using short reading assignments then ask many oral questions during reading. I have used Weekly Readers for this activity. I use a second grade level for my 3rd grader.
Kathy/5/IA - It's amazing to me that they can decode so well. I gave them the SORT test not too long ago. Many ESL scored at a higher "readability" than my nonESL students!
Leo/UAE - Kathy, I use interesting stories and dialogues then I write comprehension questions on the B.B. or on printed sheets.
Merlyn/MD - Does teaching the children in their native language really aid them in learning English when they are now living in an English speaking country, Sandy?
Merlyn/MD - What is the SORT test?
Deb/WI - I too Leo use many interesting stories but I also do stories around the holidays that involve taste testing.
Victoria - Yes, Merlyn, it does help them when they are learning in their native language.
Kathy/5/IA - SORT stands for Slosson Oral Reading Test. Our Title 1 teachers use it.
Merlyn/MD - Tell me more about the stories with the "food" interest, Deb
Victoria - about the students comprehension of stories, it could just be that they are having a hard time explaining what they know about what they have read. The hardest thing for ESL students is becoming a risk taker, and speaking or explain what they are thinking.
Leo/UAE - Yes, Deb.
Kathy/5/IA - I agree Victoria. Any advice on helping them become risk takers. I have a class of 24 (7 of which are ESL)
Merlyn/MD - I'm not familiar with it, Kathy. I'll ask our reading teacher about it.
Deb/WI - I'll do a Christmas story that talks about peppermint and gingerbread. Then I bring in those items for the kids to try. My students are Hmong and many have no idea about our holidays or the customs. anything you can do that involves taste testing for a story. Recently we were reading a story that had licorice in it. I had black but not red the kids hated the black.
Kathy/5/IA - They are "shy" and don't participate a lot.
Merlyn/MD - I have that problem with my Pakistani boy. I can hardly hear him when he speaks
Kathleen - HOw much of what you do relates to teaching about cultures in addition to teaching language skills?
Victoria - Respect and reinforce the childs culture. Plan activities in which the students can share their cultural heritages.
Kathy/5/IA - This is the first year I used the SORT. Has been interesting. Only shows a readability score. One of my girls scored at the High School level. (non esl) She realized that she could say the words, but didn't know what they meant.
Deb/WI - With my students alot. I have to go as far back as to teach them the alphabet song. The Hmong people have only had a written language for 100 yrs so much of the culture is oral learning. Things we take for granted have to be taught to my students.
Merlyn/MD - I do a lot with teaching American culture. I teach about all the major holidays we celebrate in the US
Leo/UAE - Kathleen, the realistic dialogues and stories we teach are related to the native speakers..
Kathy/5/IA - I need to do more of that, Victoria.
Deb/WI - My students share their culture freely with me because I'm interested and ask questions.
Merlyn/MD - What grade do you teach Deb?
Deb/WI - K-5 Merlyn.
Kathleen - Is there an effort to include the culture of the non-native students in your classroom holiday celebrations. In other words, do you observe only "American" holidays or others, too?
Leo/UAE - but we focus on our culture rather than the native speakers' culture, Kathleen..because children at this age MUST know their culture and traditions!
Merlyn/MD - Same here Deb
Victoria - Kathy, or anyone who is interested, I have a great list of ESL strategies that are great for all children. Anyone interested?
Kathy/5/IA - Yes, I'd be very interested, Victoria.
Leo/UAE - Shoot, Victoria!
Deb/WI - We observe all holidays. The Hmong people just had a New Year a few weeks ago. Now the kids are excited about Halloween.
Kathleen - Victoria, do you know about our ESL chatboard (bulletin board) and ESL mailring?
Deb/WI - me too
Merlyn/MD - Since I pull the students from the classroom , I usually only have one or two at a time. I celebrate holidays from other cultures too.
Merlyn/MD - Victoria, I'm always interested in gaining more info
Deb/WI - I do the same Merlyn. I recently just purchased alphabet suitcases to enhance my teaching aids with my lower elementary kids. They're really neat!
Victoria - I dont know about the chatboard, where is it, and I can post it there?
Kathleen - Victoria, if you post your information on the chatboard, too, it will be available to many others. It's at http://teachers.net/mentors/esl_language
Merlyn/MD - Tell me more Deb
Kathy/5/IA - Merlyn and Deb...I take it you are both pull out teacher for ESL. Got a question...
Kathy/5/IA - Does your district set a certain number of years that a child can be in the ESL program. Ours was 7 years, now they want to move it to 3.
Deb/WI - Lakeshore has a set of alphabet suitcases. In each case are items that start with a, b, c, etc. They are fairly small but hold about 3-4 items and then an activity.
Leo/UAE - It is a MUST that an ESL teacher should know the culture of the language he/she is teaching..
Kathleen - Leo, that does seem to be crucial (and humane)
Deb/WI - I'm not sure in our district. More of our students are seen in the elementary years and less in middle school and up.
Merlyn/MD - No there is no limit to the number of years for service. Most kids are out in two -three years.
Leo/UAE - Yes, kathleen.I do agree with you.
Kathy/5/IA - After those 2-3 years, do you find that they are pretty much on grade level?
Leo/UAE - Kathy, at least!
Deb/WI - Not to mention Leo it is showing respect for their beliefs and cultures. The one thing I found with my students is when we go on a field trip I have to tell them it is ok if they bring rice and vegies as part of their meal otherwise they would bring donuts only.
Merlyn/MD - Deb, where did you get the cases and how much did they cost. I have NO budget, but can recommend them to my department head for possible purchase.
Deb/WI - I'll have to post the address Merlyn I don't have it at home with me right now. They cost 99.00 for the entire set and are really great. Mine should be in next week.
Leo/UAE - Don't you think that the ESL syllabus should be designed by the native speakers of the language being taught??
Victoria - I cant post it here right now, but tomarrow, I will try to post it on the bulletin board, if not, HUNT me down for it at MrRmt@aol.com
Merlyn/MD - When they exit from our ESOL program, the student has reached a P level of 3 (P=Proficiency level) A P level of 5 = native speaker. So at a P-3 they are able to communicate well but not perfectly. I would not say that each is on grade level when they exit.
Leo/UAE - Yes, Deb. That's great.
Deb/WI - My district gives me 574.00 for supplies and staff development. I'm going to a workshop next week on investigating discrimination complaints.
Merlyn/MD - Deb, do you think that you could make a set of "suitcases" from things you have or could get? I guess I would not have the lesson ideas though.
Kathy/5/IA - Really, Leo? What do you do in your pull out programs to get them up to grade level so quickly.
Deb/WI - Leo that would be fine if my parents had more of an education level. In a traditional home the women aren't educated at all. The men have total control of the house.
Deb/WI - Yes Merlyn you could do that if you can have access to many items. My school is the lowest on the district for ESL students and may not even need me next year.
Merlyn/MD - Deb, do you have ESL centers in you district? I mean do they bus ESL kids to one school in the area for services? Here we go to the home school and teach.
Leo/UAE - Women here receive the best education, everything is made easy for them ..
Merlyn/MD - Sounds wonderful Leo
Deb/WI - No we are spread out around the district. Where the parents have chosen to live defines where the bulk of the students are. A school that is about 1 mile from me has over 150 ESL students.
Deb/WI - Not if your going to be an administrator Leo. I'm working my tail off for my specialist degree.
Merlyn/MD - Deb, then do you have traveling teachers of ESL?
Deb/WI - No. Each school that has ESL students has teachers, aides, and bilingual aides except for me. I have only 19 ESL students.
Merlyn/MD - Oh, here we have some elem. schools that have only 1 to 4 students in the whole school and many teachers here travel between two -four schools a day to service these students. We are considering centers in the areas that are like that. I hope so, I do three shcools every day!
Leo/UAE - Merlyn, what are the most important aides for an ESL teacher?
Deb/WI - Wow and I have a hard enough time figuring out where my students are between classes and specials most days. Do you guys do any pre-teaching?
Merlyn/MD - What do you mean, Leo. What do I need to teach?
Merlyn/MD - What do you mean by pre-teaching? I'm not sure I understand
Leo/UAE - Merlyn, I mean what are the best aides an ESL teacher might use.
Merlyn/MD - I sometimes think that figuring out my schedule is the haardest part of my job
Merlyn/MD - I sometimes think that figuring out my schedule is the hardest part of my job!!!
Deb/WI - If the classroom teacher is doing a story that the kids don't quite understand I will work with them on the next chapters ahead of the class. That way we can go over vocabulary and concepts so that the kids can participate in class. I even will work on projects before other students move on in order to keep them ahead of the class.
Merlyn/MD - Unfortunately I can't do that all the time. I do not have the opportunity to talk with and plan with classroom teachers, I deal with 11 teachers in 3 schools
Deb/WI - That's where the centers would be helpful in your case Merlyn.
Leo/UAE - All: Is it a good way to let students repeat in chorus after the tape specially in dialogues?
Merlyn/MD - I think so too., The push in Baltimore county is to integrate our program with the classroom and especially with the esential curriculum that was developed in our state. I often have students from two or three different 3rd grade classes. All teachers are not on same units!
Kathleen - Chris/AZ welcome to the ESL teachers' meeting:-)
Merlyn/MD - Deb, do you have to spend a certain amount of time with each student?
Deb/WI - I try to spend an hour a week with my Kindergartners and the other kids get about 2 hrs a week.
Merlyn/MD - I must spend 30 min each day. Can you spend that hour all at once? or do you spread it out throughout the week?
Leo/UAE - Do you teach grammar as a lesson content?
Chris/AZ - Hi. My program is for the Migrant or monolingual students. Like Merlyn, I teach student from several different classrooms. We have about 40 min. per day with each group of students.
Deb/WI - I spread it out throughout the week. That way I can build on what I'm doing.
Leo/UAE - Is it a good way to let the students repeat after the tape and follow in their books if the teacher is not a native speaker?
Chris/AZ - Leo, that sounds all right. What ages are the students using the books & tape?
Merlyn/MD - What tapes do you mean? Like in language lab? I suppose it is better to here a native English speaker pronounce the words.
Leo/UAE - Chris, they are 14-15 years.
Leo/UAE - Merlyne, the speakers in the cassettes are native speakers of course.
Chris/AZ - Leo, 14-15 year olds will pick up good pronounciation from the tapes. Do they read simple stories at their ability levels for fun?
Leo/UAE - Chris, very little.
Merlyn/MD - It is hard to get most 14-15 year olds to read, whether it's in their native language or not!
Leo/UAE - All: Do you teach a grammar lesson in one period?
Chris/AZ - Look for fun, easy to read stories in the target language. Much of our understanding of written language comes from seeing print. Look for comic book or high interest stories about video games, cars, or fashions and make up.
Merlyn/MD - Not usually. I will work on a skill for several days and even weeks if necessary. For example, I have been working with one student on subject/verb agreement with singular nouns for several weeks now. It is difficult concept.
Leo/UAE - Merlyne, just to improve the pronounciation.
Leo/UAE - Yes, Merlyn.
Merlyn/MD - No, he drops the "s" on the verb, often can do it on paper but not in speech. You know "John runs to the store" Will often come out spoken as "John run to the store"
Leo/UAE - I agree with Chris.
Chris/AZ - Merlyn, do you think the student understands verbs in her/his home language?
Merlyn/MD - I have the most trouble with usage of the past tense. It is difficult especially with irregular verbs.
Leo/UAE - I also have the subject/verb agreement problem with my students especially in the writing process.
Merlyn/MD - Good question Chris. I think so, but I'm not sure. Do you think that's why it is taking so long to learn?
Chris/AZ - Many of my students come from schools in other countries. They have no background in their own grammar, & other content areas. It slows them down.
Leo/UAE - Chris, my students have difficulty with the present perfect tense because we don't use it in our native language.
Chris/AZ - English speakers have trouble with the "familiar" form of verbs vs. the formal one.
Merlyn/MD - What is your native language Leo?
Leo/UAE - Merlyn, Arabic is our language.
Merlyn/MD - Chris are you discussing English speakers learning another language? That's what I thought, leo
Chris/AZ - Leo, most Americans would have trouble learning Arabic letters. I'm sure the English letter system is hard for your students.
Leo/UAE - Chris, not at all. English letters are very familiar to all students because the UAE society is a multi- cultural.All store signs are written in Arabic and English as well.
Chris/AZ - Merlyn, I teach English. Mostly to little guys in 1st, 2nd & 3rd grades, and older monolingual students.
Leo/UAE - Chris, thanks for every thing.G' Nite and have a great night all. // Merlyn, thanks for everything.
Leo/UAE - Our web site is great.http://www.emirates.net.ae
Kathleen - Hi, just dropped by to say sign up for the ESL mailring, and other mailrings, all free, at http://teachers.net/mailrings
Kathleen - check in regularly at our meetings page for events like this..on most week nights we have a professional development topic.
Kathleen - Just remember, http://teachers.net
Merlyn/MD - Good night
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