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Kathleen - In just a few minutes we will open tonight's session. Our guest will be Dr. Joseph S. Renzulli, Director of the National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented. http://www.gifted.uconn.edu. The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented (NRC/GT) is a collaborative effort of the University of Connecticut, City University of New York/City College, Stanford University, University of Virginia, Yale University, 52 state and territorial departments of education, over 360 public and private schools, over 167 content area consultants, and stakeholders representing professional organizations, parent groups, and businesses. The funding for the Research Center has been provided by the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, United States Department of Education, under the Jacob K. Javits Gifted and Talented Students Education Act of 1994.
Kathleen - Co-moderators tonight: Donna Kinkead who teaches 6th grade gifted classes. Donna is the mother of three G & T identified children. Mim who has been teaching for 10 years in public school in PA and serves as GATE coordinator, working with gifted students in grades 2-6 and talented students in grades 1-6. We thank Donna and Mim for agreeing to moderate this session.
Kathleen - Teachers.Net is pleased to welcome Dr. Joseph S. Renzulli, Director, National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented.
Kathleen - Dr. Renzulli, would you like to open with a statement about what you wish to focus on tonight?
Joe - Hi...I'm on and ready for your questions
Joe - If you are familiar with my model, I would be most comfortable just answering questions about it.
Donna K/IN - Dr. Renzulli, we thought you might want to introduce what you would like to focus on tonight to begin the session
Mim/GATE/PA - Which books or articles would you recommend I share with my principal who still clings to the thought that if we accept students whose IQs are not 130 we will water down the GATE program?
Joe - Best bet would be to get him/her a copy of The Three Ring Conception of giftedness which is on our NRC/GT web site
KT - Dr. Renzulli, how do you implement SEM in the lower grades. I teach an enrichment program (grades 4&5) many parents of younger children are inquiring about gifted ed for their children ( yes I said the "G" word)
Donna K/IN - I would like to ask some questions about SEM. How do you bring along reluctant teachers?
Kathleen - The Schoolwide Enrichment Model: A How-To Guide for Educational Excellence -- Sally M. Reis, Joseph S. Renzulli; Paperback http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0936386703/teachersnet/
Karen Z. - I would recommend that book... I use it almost daily.
Joe - The SEM can be implemented in any grade in a series of components. start with the Total Talent Portofolio, and then set up a series of enrichment clusters across grade levels.
Donna K/IN - There is often a resistance to setting aside cluster time for grade levels - what is the best way to implement - start small?
Mim/GATE/PA - Can you explain the Total Talent Portfolios for those who are new to your theories?
Joe - Next, get teachers to compact curriculum for their most advanced achievers. Articles about all these components are on our web site, and there are book length versions and some video tapes regarding each component. The enrichment clusters have been esp
Emmyp - How do you deal with the problem of people perceiving gifted education as "elitism"?
Donna K/IN - Dr. Renzulli many people who have joined us may be interested but not familiar with all your work. I happen to use enrichment clusters and find it is the only way to survive (for the kids and me!) in a classroom of gifted children.
jmich - Can you please give us your website?
Mary/GT/GA - Can you define "enrichment clusters"?
Patti - I would like to know what "Enrichment Clusters" are...
Joe - We try to make the equity argument work for us in much the same way as any specisl accomodation that is made for other youngsters such as those with learning problems.
Kathleen - National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented at http://www.gifted.uconn.edu
Donna K/IN - On the UConn website are some Dr. Renzulli's articles and information about gifted education
Sandy - Are enrichclusters for standard classrooms or for pull-out gifted programs
Joe - Look under articles under The Schoolwide Enrichment Model
KT - How do you deal with the political notion that every child should be receiving gifted ed. The criteria for my program has been lowered to allow more children in and many of them are not ready for it.
Emmyp - Somehow, people do not perceive gifted children to be the same as those with learning problems.
Donna K/IN - enrichment clusters are for regular classrooms as well as gifted pullouts - they allow children to investigate and explore topics of their choice
Karen Z. - Sandy ~standard classrooms... for all students to benefit.
Donna K/IN - Definitely - and usually children with learning problems are funded by state and local and definitely Federal monies. Not everyone has gifted funds
Mary/GT/GA - Does the SEM dilute the pull-out services for the gifted?
Joe - Sandy - We use enrichment in both places. In regular classrooms it is often tied to the regular curriculum ans advanced level offshoots. In pullout or enrichnmet clusters the topics are based in student interests. Pull out has been especially misused w
Sandy - Are enrichment clusters like a research paper?
Karen Z. - Joe ~ maybe you could comment on how teachers/volunteers run a cluster for the kiddos...
Donna K/IN - Dr. Renzulli why do you say pullouts have been misused?
KT - Our curriculum is differentiated and challenging. Several of my students under the lowered criteria lack the skills necessary to attain success in this environment. they are not at the ceiling of their learning,
Kathleen - Building a Bridge Between Gifted Education and Total School Improvement by Joseph S. Renzulli http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0788137123/teachersnet/
Joe - Look at the web article entitled How To Develop and AUTHENTIC Enrichment cluster. I emphasize authentic here because too often teachers treat the clusters like mini-courses. There is a decided difference and this is covered in the article.
Donna K/IN - KT I understand that notion - we are also having our formula for placement changed. At one point it relied heavily on several criteria for placement, now everyone is reverting to test scores
Mim/GATE/PA - we rely on the test score as the deciding factor...we do not look at teacher input or creativity : (
Donna K/IN - You are suggesting that the choice should be emphasized within these clusters?
Kathleen - A Guidebook for Developing Individualized Educational Programs (Iep for Gifted and Talented Students) by Joseph S. Renzulli, Linda H. Smith http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0936386134/teachersnet
Melanie - Dr. Renzulli, Can you give us some background on how you got your inspiration to develop your model?
jmich - Dr. Renzulli, do you feel the Revolving Door Model can be implemented along with SEM, or should you set up one or the other? I'm not familiar with SEM.
Gumbo/Kdn/La - test scores carry most of the weight here.....whatever kid tests highest in--math or language----he/she goes to gifted resource for that one area.......
KT - We use IQ and test scores which are based upon the new learning standards in New York State. The scores, although average are not indicative of above average and thus the criteria was lowered
Donna K/IN - I think that is sad Mim - sometimes very creative children who excel in arts and performance are missed for gifted programs - I fight to keep mine!
Joe - Donna: I believe pullout is misused if we do the same kind of prescribed/preszented instruction as in regular classrooms. the fact that we might have different topics doesnt change the pedagogy. See the web article entitled The Definition of Hige End L
Donna K/IN - Yes, I agree. I am very lucky as I teach in a gifted magnet program - I have darling gifted sixth graders all day long to teach every subject!
Emmyp - Dr. Renzulli, I apologize for not having read your book, I am in this discussion trying to get an idea as to what your book is about, and what you would like to see done with the gifted children. Most of the posts seem to be stating our general unfamiliarity with your SEM model. Is it possible for you to give us the "Coles notes" on your theories, and some meat to think about?
Mim/GATE/PA - donna- I know. I had two students last year who I worked with in Open GATE (non identified students) and they were creative, bright, dedicated students who loved learning and they tested as 127s. They were not allowed in the program even though the teache
Gumbo/Kdn/La - Dr. Renzulli-----pullout is definitely misused here.....very sad and wasteful......
Karen Z. - Or, try to use some Action Information Messages for the students
Karen Z. - THe RDIM is a wonderful way to include more students...
Mary/GT/GA - Dr. Joe---what should a pullout program look like?
Mim/GATE/PA - cont's teacher and I disagreed with the recommendation : (
Joe - Emmy: It would be difficult to give you even the Coles (Cliff) notes version via this medium. That is why I have put summarized version of most of my books and longer articles on the web site. I appologize, but please look at the short articles on the w
Nellyb - I feel lucky-no ndates in MA and a supportive administratin which is encouraging me to assess in multiple ways, do revolving door programs, keep track with portfolios. The problems - I am it for a population of3500 K-8 kids, and many teachers don't unde
jmich - Mim, is your Open GATE similiar to a RDIM?
Karen Z. - My advice is take teachers from where they are at... start slow...baby steps... :D
Mim/GATE/PA - jmich- I believe so. Teachers recommend students to work with me in certain areas (math, reading,writing) The students may work with me for a day for several sessions or the whole year.
KT - Dr. Renzulli, our program is a pullout ( a day and a half) I travel to 3 buildings, the children work on self selected mini-units on a wide range of topics as well as other divergent topics. I'm finding that the students who have entered in my program under the lowered criteria find difficulty researching independently and thinking creatively. How can you get regular classroom teachers who regard the program as an inconvenience to foster high level thinking for their students?
Karen Z. - KT ~have you presented any teacher inservices on the benefits of differentiating instruction?
Nellyb - KT, I am doing a newsletter for teachers with examples of open ended questions and work at all levels, including theirs.
Karen Z. - KT ~ Show teachers how differentiating isnt more work, it is simply adjusting your thought process to reach all the abilities & interests of students.
Joe - Mary: Essentially a pullout program shopuld use Types I and II (general) enrichment to stimulate individual and small group interests, and Type II should follow acquired interests with training in methodological skills (research) skills in how to pursue
jmich - Dr. Renzulli, in an effective pullout program, what would you say are the most important objectives?
Nellyb - Dr. r, the problem is that teachers say, again and again without trying it, that differentiated education doesn't work.
Mim/GATE/PA - I offer articles, recommended websites, and discuss these topics with the teachers I work with. I am often looked at as if I have three eyes!
Kathleen - Revolving Door Identification Model by Joseph S. Renzulli http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0936386169/teachersnet
maz - we should make the children love to study
jmich - Just got my answer!!! Thanks
Nellyb - Oh, yes! I know the 3 eye routine!
Karen Z. - Nelly~ Have you been able to model any examples of differentiated instrcution w/i tneir classrooms? I would suggest that! :)
Mary/GT/GA - Thank you, Dr. Joe. I heard you speak at he the Ga, Assn. for Gifted Children conference 2 years ago!
Nellyb - Karen Z, this is new, but yes. One time was a setup, as thteacher admitted after, but a good converstion was started. The other got an aha.
andy - How can a student learn what's being taught when they are pulled out of the classroom?
Karen Z. - Nelly, I would check back with the teachers as frequently as you can. Offer suggestions to tier the assignments, interest centers, etc...
maz - we must make sure that all the children have all the oppurtunity to study
Joe - I will be speaking at the CAG conference in L. A. in March
Karen Z. - andy ~ they should already show mastery of that subject matter before they are being pulled out...
KT - Andy, their curriculum should be compacted so that they don't have to do every assignment
Kathleen - GATE Chatboard: http://teachers.net/mentors/GATE
Kathleen - Join the GATE e-mail discussion group: http://teachers.net/mailrings
Mim/GATE/PA - andy- in many cases these children already know what you are teaching OR they will be able to pick it up with little instruction. Teachers often do not realize the potential a student may have.
Mary/GT/GA - Very inspiring speaker!
Donna K/IN - If a child is Gifted, he or she does not need to learn everything being taught over and over in a classroom - the curriculum is compacted for them
jmich - KT, how do you gently explain to the classroom teachers that compacting for these students is not, "letting them do less work" I got that comment once
KT - We usually dismiss our class 40 minutes before the end of the day so that our students can conferenc with their teachers on what was missed
andy - If they have masterey of the subject why are they in the class to begin with? My experience has been that they mess essential material and many do not catch up.
Karen Z. - jmich ~ Do you show the teachers what you are doing with the students? Maybe that will clear the speculations up.
Mim/GATE/PA - Joe-How can we as GATE teachers help the classroom teachers to understand that compacting curriculum is not giving gifted students special treatment, but is in reality giving them what they need to succeed?
Donna K/IN - andy my experience is quite the opposite - that as a parent I watched my children repeat many areas each year that they had known before hand
Nellyb - jmich, compacting isa way to give the students opportunities to do MORE work. Andy, I ask teachers and kids, again and again, whether this is the kind of student who can do 2 things at once. They usually know.
KT - jmich, explain that if they can demonstrate understand of the concept that should be enough If students can do 10 math problems and show understanding rather than 30 problems that should do it
Joe - Come on Andy, you know that SOME kids dont need to be dragged through ever inch of every lesson...we're not talking about kids with lewarning problems here!
jmich - Karen, yes, I often go to them and try to explain that we are covering the skill and going beyond to a higher level of thinking, and I sometimes get, "They're in my class and they will do the same homework, etc. as everyone else."
Donna K/IN - When schools do not allow for gifted advancement or clusters the repetition in effect, kills their interest in learning -
KT - Otherwise, it's just busy work and boring for them
Karen Z. - andy ~ students dont always have mastery of every subject. Compacting is a curricular adjustment for students in the specific area that they are proficient in.
andy - Would you take a doctor from his surgery class to make puppets?
Mim/GATE/PA - while in the regular ed classroom I differentiated instruction. Many teachers asked me how I did it. I told them it required a shift in the way we thought about planning. It sunded good, but I still am at a loss as to what to tell them next!
jmich - Yes! Donna Yes! Some of our teachers can't see it.
Donna K/IN - I know I have a 17 yr old profoundly gifted son who was turned off by school by 4th grade - he didn't need to relearn fractions every year
Joe - Cherpa: I think you should have as much background info as possible, but it should be more that their scores. Look at the total
Donna K/IN - andy I think this is the surgery class - not what happens in a regular classroom
KT - jmich, unfortunately by doing everything children learn to hand in not the best quality and they have learned not to learn. That is the quiet crisis existing today.
jmich - andy, you said it very well!!!!!!
andy - Correct, our public schools should operate like universities instead of factories.
Joe - le -- this is the info that should be used to make decisions about any kinds of modifications you can introduce into your classroom.
Kathleen - Renzulli, J.S. (1998). A rising tide lifts all ships: Developing the gifts and talents of all students. Phi Delta Kappa, 80, 1-15
meandu2 - administrators worry about cluster grouping as being an elite homogeneous grouping...how do you get around this?
Mim/GATE/PA - andy- if students are always making puppets...then there is something worng with your GATE program.
jmich - meandu2, i think some of our tchrs feel the same way
Joe - The Rising Tide article is on our web site...
Karen Z. - exactly Mim...
KT - Dr. R., will you be giving another conference on Long Island?
cherpa - How can I make that point to my supervisor? I am not condsidered with regard to the selection process and the only time a student is dismissed from the program is at the parent's request.
Kathleen - Renzulli, J.S. (1998). The three-ring conception of giftedness. In Baum, S.M., Reis, S. M., & Maxfield, L.R. (Eds.). Nurturing the Gifts and Talents of Primary Grade Students. Mansfield Center, CT: Creative Learning Press.
Donna K/IN - andy, that could be another discussion in itself - how public education was in fact designed to produce that type of mentality - the good citizen who did not question
Joe - The research clearly points out the advantages of cluster grouping by skill level in the regular classroom.
jmich - cherpa, do you have an exit criteria for the program?
Mim/GATE/PA - but times... they have changed. We need to look at the way we identify and service gifted students...that's what this is all about : )
Donna K/IN - I think all programs need a set criteria for exiting - non-performance, lack of interst included
meandu2 - I'd like to try cluster groups next year,but administration says we have to "balance" classrooms with varying abilities
jmich - Our district is looking at developing an exit criteria, any suggestions, Dr. Renzulli??
KT - Thank you Donna. Totally agree
Kathleen - Articles: http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/articles.html
Mim/GATE/PA - meandu2- thenyou can use compacting for the students who are able : )
cherpa - mich -- there is no formal exit criteria from the program at the elementary level. Also, in our system, elementary teachers are not allowed to fail a student in any subject.
Joe - The Rising Tide article points out how we can improve the education of all studdnts by applying some enrichment strategies to general education, and at the same time, how we can use the enrichment process to challenge our highest achieving students.
Rachel - I totally agree - AG or not I enrich all my students - even LD with wonderful results!
Donna K/IN - Our school system not only addresses the needs of our highly gifted students by use of a magnet program in elementary, but also has a set criteria for adressing needs of giftedness in a regular classroom from K-6. There are selections of blocks of gifted classes in the middle schools and specific classes in the high school.
Rachel - The identifying criteria by school systems leave out those who are AG in other areas that need that enrichment.
KT - Jmich, in our system the student has to keep grades up, but that is all
Donna K/IN - Regular classroom teachers have commented how the rest of their students are blossoming from use of enrichment clusters and enrichment activities - including project/product choice
jmich - KT, that's sad, what if the student is gifted in other areas? I have a SED student that is gifted. He does poorly in academics, but excells in other areas.
Mim/GATE/PA - so Donna- send me the magic wand so that the people I work with will be open to this! LOL I just feel so frustrated that many I work with will not even consider what we are talking about : (
Rachel - Joe - I'd like your response on how best to help an AG child who is so very h ard on herself
KT - Donna, do you have this in the elementary? My program is for the highly gifted, but now I'm also getting students of average ability
KT - and they are struggling to keep up with their classwork and our curriculum
Nellyb - Kt and jmich - and what about the gifted kid who is emotionallat risk and not performing? I've got a handful of those.
Donna K/IN - I know MIM - but there are 14 elementary schools here and mine happens to be most supportive of this - other elementaries in our system make remarks such as "we don't have gifted children in this area" - usually this is the lower socio-economic group. That is my question Dr. Renzulli - how do you convince people there are gifted rural and homeless etc. Some teachers don't believe the two can be found together!
Karen Z. - KT ~ Can you simply offer them more choice in their work? (more product possibliities, etc...)
Mim/GATE/PA - KT- I have a few students who do not get great grades in the regular ed classroom, but they work hard for me and really excell while in the GATE room.
jmich - Nellyb, yes, I have just a few of those, what do we do???
Donna K/IN - KT this is our elementary program - we have a magnet for 4-5-6 for those 130 and above plus recommendation, and we have clusters for those in 120 and above in regular classrooms
Joe - Rachel: That's a tough one, but there are some people who have done some good work on the topic of perfectionism. Dr. Patricia (Pat) Schuler, one of my former grads has some material on this. Leave a message on our web site and i will give you her e-ma
KT - Jmich, that is why the SEM model is so good. It meets the concerns of everyone. i feel though that my school systeem is not ready for it yet.
Donna K/IN - My highly gifted son did that - he was bored in reg ed
Rachel - Donna - Show them the movie October Sky -
Donna K/IN - That was to MIm
jmich - Yes, Donna. In fact our superintendent said to me just today, "Well, all of your students probably have the internet at home, so you won't need more computers." believe it
Melanie - But, Donna, are those children generally identified under your state criteria and district's measures? We have a large ESL population and lower socioeconomic area and I have great difficulty getting kids through the testing and into the program.
Donna K/IN - I don't understand your comment?
KT - Donna, our program is 120 with Total Reading and math of 96th percentile and 130 with total reading and math of 90 percentile
Mary/GT/GA - Dr. Joe, we are using your Motivation and Creativity checklists as part of multiple criteria for entrance into our pullout program.
Donna K/IN - Melanie, yes that is why we select not only on test scores but teacher identification and parent and student self recommendations
KT - No more teacher recommendation because many referred students who were not ready for the commitment
Donna K/IN - Rachel?
~Merlyn - Can anyone here explain what AP classes are and when do students begin taking them?
Karen Z. - Melanie ~ If they cant be a part of the program or be a part of a RDIM, would it be possible to offer them the chance to fill out Action Information Messages?
jmich - Donna, you said that some people think the upper socio-econimic groups have gifted kids, not the lower ecomomic groups. I have lots of kids that don't have computers let along internet. The superintendent thinks all our GATE kids are the upper crust.
Rachel - Joe- leave an email at what website??
Donna K/IN - jmich that is exactly what I have been saying - our school which has large ENL population and socio-economic probs recommends these kids - but in other parts of this town they are ignored
Rachel - Sorry - Have you seen October Sky about kids in a coal mining town who are "gifted" and make it - based on a true story
Melanie - Karen, In my district we are told by our director that we may not work with unidentified students. We must spend 100% of our time with id kids.
KT - Merlyn, ap advanced placement classes. In my local district it starts in the middle school
Donna K/IN - Advanced Placement classes are usually taught at the high school level and usually must follow a standard college curriculum for that subject area
~Merlyn - So it is a college course?
Karen Z. - that's too bad Melanie... You could offer services to so many more students otherwise...
Donna K/IN - The students are prepared to take a test which scores them 1-5 on passing colleges accept 3-5 scores depending on what kind of college/strictess of standards they have
Rachel - As a regular ed teacher, I do differentiation with all kids in the classroom - AG id or not but pullout is only AG id
KT - Merlyn, some colleges give credit for these courses. On the High School level, students must take an advanced placement test. If they score a certain amount colleges accept it as credit
Donna K/IN - If you score well enough you can place out of college courses (not all colleges accept them however - many ivies do not for example with less than a 5)
Donna K/IN - KT not all colleges
~Merlyn - Thank you Donna, my daughter was recommended for two next year in 11th grade. I am afraid it will be too much of a strain.
~Merlyn - Yes she did mention college credit, as much as 9 credits!
meandu2 - I am gifted inclusion/pullout teacher for a primary campus of 800 students.I am now inprocess of identifying kinderg. students...we are rural, low ses and we try to identify a broad base using multiple measures. Problem is in serving so many with 1 teacher...
Kathleen - Nurturing Social Emotional Development of Gifted Children. ERIC Digest E527. Webb, James T. http://ericae.net/edo/ED372554.htm
Donna K/IN - Dr. Renzulli I really enjoyed talking with you this evening - I wish we could have had a more in depth discussion -about some of the models - perhaps next time?
KT - Merlyn, my daughter took it for English and Foreign language only. She enjoyed the challenge.
jmich - Donna, read some of Dr. Renzulli's work. You will find them very informative.
Mim/GATE/PA - yes thank-you Dr. Renzulli. It was an honor to "meet" you and take part in this discussion : )
Kathleen - Dr. Renzulli has offered to do another session with school administrators. Perhaps we can persuade him to do a third session to explore more deeply topics touched upon here tonight?
KT - Dr. R, will you be giving another conference on Long Island soon?
Kathleen - Dr. Renzulli, thank you very much for spending time with us at Teachers.Net tonight!
Kathleen - Those who wish to remain for further discussion about GATE are encouraged to do so
Mary/GT/GA - Thanks, Dr. Joe! Keep up the good work!
jmich - Dr. Renzulli, I am so thrilled to have spent these past few minutes 'with' you. It's an honor to meet you and thank you for talking with us. I used one of your books six years ago to convince our district that changes in our program had to be made. Well, it took them years to believe me, but they're listening now. Thank you.
Joe - Thank you all for your thoughts and comments...I agree, we should have more time for this, and a face-to-face discussion would be nice. Time to read one of those ponderoud doctoral dissertations tha has been staring me in the face all evening. Good Nigh
Kathleen - Good night, Joe. many thanks!
