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Marv Marshall - Hi and welcome to the first monthly discipline chat.
Pecos - P, I have not attended one of these before. I am very excited because I always need suggestions for discipline
Paulie - hi am ready to listen . . .
P - discipline is definitely my weakness
Cotrino - Hello, and thanks for the welcome, it is an honor
Pecos - I am seated on the first row!
Marv Marshall - for your information, I have posted a new link at http://www.marvinmarshall.com/raise_responsibility.htm. I think you will enjoy it
Cotrino - Thanks for the welcome, and I am honored
Cotrino - Your Raising Responsibility system was a Godsend for us last year
Pecos - I have not read any of your papers, Dr. Marshall.
Marv Marshall - Thank you Cotrino! Can you tell me more?
Cotrino - We went through the whole process using the literature books etc. and the children really got it!
Jolie - Hello, Everyone. Dr. Marshall, I have just begun to read your book, and it is a breath of fresh air!
Cotrino - They even started using the language themselves by Nov.
Pecos - Dr. Marshall, what is your specific topic tonight?
Marv Marshall - I'm open to any question you have.
Pecos - Well, school is about to start. Please tell me about your approach to discipline.
Marv Marshall - Let's start with the difference between classroom management and discipline
Cotrino - thank you
Marv Marshall - Most teachers teach toward obedience and often times get resistance and rebellion--and even defiance.
Jolie - I teach kindergarten. In the past, with the more traditional (external) motivational forms of discipline, teachers would ask parents to read about class rules & consequences, and sign a statement verifying they understand the discipline plan.
Pecos - yes, MM, what can we do differently?
Jolie - With "Raise Responsibility," how can we effectively involve parents & encourage their support from the start?
Marv Marshall - Most teachers teach toward obedience and in return often get resistance and sometimes defiance. My approach is to empower students and when you do this by promoting responsibility, you get obedience as a natural by-product.
Pecos - OK, sounds good. What do we do differently to achieve this?
Lonna - I just got your book and can't wait to read it. Is there anything you change when using it with kindergartners?
ditto - Probably run your room like a community -- everyone expected to do their part without rewards that are external
ditto - or as a team?
Marv Marshall - One way to get parents involved is for them to use the same vocabulary at home as teachers do in the classroom. I'm referring to the four levels of social development: anarchy, bullying/bothering/bossing, cooperating, and democracy.
Cotrino - Dr. Marshall, This time of year everyone wants "rules" posted, short of having them read your book, how can we counter this and encourage otherwise?
Marv Marshall - The website listed above has a pdf file that kindergarten teacher can use.
Marv Marshall - Keep the rules to a minimum and state them in positive terms.
Cotrino - I am happy to see you offering more for the "b" level, I was bothered by the term "bullying" so I changed it to bothering but felt a little bad
Pecos - Are these the terms most people use when dealing with others?
Marv Marshall - Rules are either expectations or procedures. Teach and reteach the procedures you want followed. Don't assume students know how to do anything without your telling them in specific terms. Then have them practice the procedure.
Pecos - or levels of communication
Pecos - Could you give us an example of teaching a procedure?
Cotrino - We used "disciplined" for democracy, do you see a discrepancy with that?
Marv Marshall - Regarding parents: Go to the website, http://www.AboutDiscipline.com/TIPS_FOR_PARENTS.pdf and download the "Tips for Parents" on the site.
ditto - procedure: what do I do if I want to talk/give answer? Procedure:raise your hand to talk then model
Pecos - I've noticed that you term behaviors as A, B, C, D. Does that follow the anarchy, etc?
Marv Marshall - Let's say you want to get the students attention. You can say, "Give me five--2 eyes, 2 ears, and one closed mouth." Put your hand up to demonstrate it. Have the kids talk. Then use the procedure by raising your hands with five fingers showing. Time how long it takes. Then challenge students, saying something like, "It took 20 seconds. I bet you can do it in 10." Let them talk and then put your hand up again. You would have taught a procedure, practiced it, challenged them, and reinforced it by practicing the procedure again.
KarencCA - like it Dr Marshall
P - I like that
Pecos - I've noticed that you term behaviors as A, B, C, D. Does that follow the anarchy, etc? How do we do that?
Marv Marshall - The hierarchy of social development has anarchy at the bottom and democracy at the top. There is something about a hierarchy that entices most people. They want to get to the top.
Jolie - Should rules be general (ex. Treat everyone kindly on the inside and on the outside) or specific (Keep hands, feet and objects to yourself)?
KarencCA - good question Jolie
Pecos - So would a chart or pyramid with Democracy at the top be appropriate?
Pecos - So we strive for Democracy. We teachers are benevolent dictators. How do we avoid voting on everything?
Marv Marshall - First, I would read this month's Teachers.net/gazette. Go to the gazette by me. http://teachers.net/gazette/AUG02/marshall.html I have given an example of rules--but I do not call them rules--which are negative and place the teacher in the position of being a cop--an enforcer of rules. I use the term "responsibilities" instead. They are all general, positive, and give expectations. Specifics can be done with discussions.
Marv Marshall - RE: democracy--This does not refer to democratic classroom, such as when students vote on rules. Democracy in the hierarchy of social development refers to taking the initiative to do what is appropriate and right--without being told. Being told what to do and then doing it is level C- cooperating. In the higher grades I refer to it as conformity because I want young people to be aware of the power and effect of peer pressure.
Barbara - Should students be allowed to help determine the responsibilities?
Cotrino - So, could "disciplined" be equally substituted for first graders to more easily understand?
pat schmidt - Personally I don't think so
Marv Marshall - To keep the difference between classroom management in mind, think of it this way. Classroom management is about how things are done. Discipline is about how people behave. Management has to do with procedures, routines and structure. Discipline has to do with self-discipline and impulse control. Here is the Key: Classroom management is the teacher's responsibility. Discipline is the student's responsibility.
Pecos - I like that Key!
pat schmidt - I learned last year that no matter what you do sometimes you just can't make kids behave. They have to want to do it.
Deb4thTX - How do you deal with those kids that just don't want to behave?
pat schmidt - I think you have to make them want to... how??? It's different for different kids.
Pecos - I want to remember the "Key" as I will probably need to explain it to some parents.
Marv Marshall - For primary students--really for any student--discipline should be thought of in a positive manner. The more disciplined a person is, the more freedom the person has because the person has more control.
pat schmidt - What about the kid who just wants attention.. negative attention will even do?
KarencCA - it becomes based on trust to be disciplined
Cotrino - It did seem that we had a couple of kids who understood the levels, they just didn't seem to care. What then?
Deb4thTX - you give them less freedom?
Pecos - Cotrino, that's exactly what I was about to ask!
ditto - they will
Marv Marshall - For kids that will not behave: Say to them, "What you have done is inappropriate. (Teach that word and concept.) The say, "What do you suggest we do about it?" Your are ELICITING the activity to help the youngster not repeat the behavior. If what the youngster says is not acceptable, follow it up with "What else?" "What else?" "What else?" until you both agree on what the youngster should do.
Pecos - That's what Ruby Payne suggested also.
Cotrino - Okay, so you do that, agree, and then they do not do what was agreed upon?
Pecos - Could we ask the student to write what he's going to do about it?
Jolie - For Kdg children, does anyone have any object lessons to make the terms easy to understand? Do you role-play?
ditto - why punish with writing? Just makes them hate to write
P - Would you explain to the student why the suggestions are not acceptable?
Cotrino - we role play tremendously
pat schmidt - I think role playing is a great way
Marv Marshall - Ruby Payne's book on kids in poverty is good. I am working with youngsters in Harlem with my contract with the New York City Board of Education. Empowering kids--rather than overpowering them--works with anyone at any age in any situation.
Stanley - Marv, though I've only heard his things described, your "eliciting" post here sounds much like my impression of Jim Fay's work.
P - The writing is good for middle school. It facilitates the students calming down and reflecting on their behavior.
Pecos - well, if the student is disruptive, his sitting down and writing may enable you to get in some teaching to the rest of the class. One or two incidents like that are not what makes a kid hate to write.
Pecos - Writing is good for third and fourth also
pat schmidt - If a child is disruptive do you think he will just sit and write?
Marv Marshall - Yes, have a discussion with students. The more they understand the reasons, the more satisfying it is to them and the more desire they have to cooperate.
ditto - a kid that "needs to write it to remember it " will have to do it many times not just once He/she will learn to hate writing
P - The writing is also good for documenting. Plus the teacher can make a copy to send home.
Kerry - Marv, I'm finding that I need more help with giving Guided choices with primary students who are not yet able to write. What do you suggest for them for self-refelection?
Cotrino - so you just keep doing it over and over?
Pecos - Kerry, draw a picture, an illustration?
Cotrino - With our class last year, they were a very different class--responsibility was what they needed most, we felt like we were discussing ALL the time.
Marv Marshall - For the disruptive child, if you cannot have private conversation just then, say, "Don't worry about what we'll do about this situation. We'll talk later. Kids want security and a desire to know were they stand. Not knowing is agonizing to them. Don't be surprised if the youngster keeps coming back to find out what you mean. Just say, "We'll talk about it later." When later comes, elicit the activity as described above.
pat schmidt - I had a principal who use to use this tactic... very effective
Marv Marshall - Don't spend much time discussing. Present the four levels of social development and then have students come up with examples of each level in the classroom.
Pecos - LoL, Dr. Marshall, I can see some of my kids warting me about that!
pat schmidt - I always thought it was a form of torture<VBG!!>
Marv Marshall - What does LOL and warting mean?
Pecos - Are the four levels of social development discussed in your book?
KarencCA - laugh out loud
Pecos - LOL...laugh out loud
Pecos - warting.... a Texas term for repeatedly bothering someone
Cotrino - I still want more about what to do when they "get it" they just don't seem to care
Marv Marshall - Yes, Chapter 3 is entirely about the Raise Responsibility System. A descriptive Table of Contents is available at http://www.DisciplineWithoutStress.com
Cotrino - never heard of warting!
Jolie - School will be starting soon. The first week is always hectic, especially with Kdg. How, and how much, do we introduce those first few days?
Pecos - Cotrino, we all have that problem, even in the lower grades. What do we do with the "don't cares?"
Marv Marshall - Thanks. I'll be presenting in Bryan and Houston, Texas, next month. Local idioms are always helpful.
pat schmidt - Isn't it sad that so many kids have that apathetic nature
Stanley - Marv, there is a post on the SubBoard which wonders how your current Gazette article might apply to Subs.
Pecos - Yes, Pat, it's alarming!
Kerry - Marv, I have another question. Many people I speak to on mailrings are caught in the difficult situation of teaching in a school that requires them to use a "flip-a-card" behaviour plan and a daily/weekly report to parents. Any advice for those trying to work with other staff members who don't use your approach?
pat schmidt - Now, what can we do about it?
Marv Marshall - Regarding substituting: In my Resource Guide available to schools as of last Friday, I do not use the term substitute. I use guest teacher. As an elementary school principal, the very first thing I did every day when we had a guest teacher was to go to the class and announced that we had a guest in our classroom and made a comment to the effect that I expected (KEY WORD) students to be good hosts.
Stanley - Kerry, as a Sub I see LOTS of Ts using the "flip-a-card" system!
ditto - well the stoplight flip card was a good system awhile back
Marv Marshall - A previous gazette started with a letter from a guest teacher. He abandoned any lesson and taught the hierarchy. The youngster settled down. They matured. - http://teachers.net/gazette/APR02/marshall.html
Stanley - Marv, **KUDOS** on what you did as a site administrator!Would that even the classroom Ts prepped their Ss thusly……
KarencCA - what is the name of the book
Eric J. Bentley - I also address my "subs" as guest teachers.
Stanley - I can see that I should spend more time reading the Gazette……
ditto - glad to hear that subs are teachers and not babysitters
Marv Marshall - My general recommendation is to just follow what you have been doing. Once students understand the difference between external motivation (level C) and internal motivation (level D) external motivators and manipulators quickly lose their appeal.
serena - Hello all, tomorrow is my first day of school.
Erin - Hello, Serena. Good luck!
Cotrino - so, it could take more than one year or classroom for them to internalize it?
Marv Marshall - Well, it's past that time. I'll be on again the last Wednesday of this month, August 28 at 5:00 PACIFIC Time.
Eric J. Bentley - When I'm absent, I leave a note for my guest teacher asking them to identify 3 "poster children" of good behavior. When I discuss this with them, the students and parents, I tell them that these students were not the best 3 or the only 3. Simply 3 students who were identified as supportive, positive and mature. I also send a letter home asking parents to share in applauding this behavior.
Marv Marshall - A good week to you all.
KarencCA - thank you Dr. Marshall
Stanley - THANK you for your time, Marv!!
serena - Thanks, Erin. I should be in bed. Goodbye Dr. Marshall!
Cotrino - Thank you very much
Gazette Articles by Dr. Marshall:
- Ronald Reagan and the Art of Influence (June 2009)
- Discipline Is a Liberating Word (May 2009)
- Eliciting vs. Punishments (Apr. 2009)
- Habit vs. Awareness for the 3 Practices and for the Hierarchy of Social Development (Mar. 2009)
- How to Be Consistent (Feb. 2009)
- Teaching is an Art, Not a Science (Jan. 2009)
- Tapping Into Internal Motivation (Dec. 2008)
- People Do Better When They Feel Good (Nov. 2008)
- The Brain and Sleep (Oct. 2008)
- Using a Butterfly Analogy to Explain the Hierarchy of Social Development (Sept. 2008)
- 5 Classroom Tips (Aug. 2008)
- Discipline Without Stress, Inc. (July 2008)
- Visualization (June 2008)
- Promoting Responsibility - Or How Not To (May 2008)
- Immaculate Perception (April 2008)
- A System Is Superior To Talent (Mar. 2008)
- To promote responsibility, Elicit Rather Than Impose (Feb. 2008)
- Understanding Boys (Jan. 2008)
- Descartes' Error: I think; therefore, I am (July 2003)
- Metacognition -- Thinking about Thinking Is Essential for Learning (June 2003)
- Listening Lessons -- How to Help Kids Learn and Comprehend (May 2003)
- Approaches of Outstanding Teachers (Apr 2003)
- Using a Discipline Approach to Promote Learning (Mar 2003)
- Curriculum, Instruction, Classroom Management, and Discipline (Feb 2003)
- Learning and Relationships, The two are inseparable (Jan 2003)
- Accountability in Schools (Dec 2002)
- Suggestions For Motivation (Nov 2002)
- Given Names - When NOT to Use Them and when TO Use Them (Oct 2002)
- The Power Of Hierarchies (Sept 2002)
- Use the Language You Want Learned (Aug 2002)
- Observations From Last Year (July 2002)
- How The Horse Whisperer Trains a Wild Mustang in 30 Minutes (June 2002)
- Using Breath Management for Better Listening and Voice Preservation (May 2002)
- Reducing Stress By Promoting Responsibility--Rather than by Attempting to Manipulate Behavior (Apr 2002)
- Rules Vs. Expectations (Mar 2002)
- How to Achieve 100 Per Cent Student Participation (Feb 2002)
- Positivity, Choice, and Reflection Exercise for Students (Jan 2002)
- Learning Climate (Dec 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 3) (Nov 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 2) (Sep 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 1) (May 2001)
- The Empowerment Of Choice (pt 2) (Apr 2001)
- The Empowerment Of Choice (pt 1) (Mar 2001)
- Power Of Positivity (pt 2) (Feb 2001)
- Power Of Positivity (Jan 2001)
- Home Assignments (Dec 2000)
- Collaboration is the Key (Nov 2000)
- Classroom Meetings (Aug 2000)
