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Marv - Welcome to our monthly chat on discipline.
Paulie - I want to ask if there is a list of books or something you can relate the A, B, C, D to for Kindergartners
Marv - Harry Wong has a new website: http://newteacher.com. It is a wonderful site to review the importance of teaching procedures before content.
Paulie - or do you just talk about each and have them draw to relate to each one -- since they can't read, there has got to be some kind of clues for them???
Paulie - no I meant books for kids
Marv - Books for ABCD: A-Miss Nelson Is Missing.
Marv - B. The Three Little Pigs
Marv - C. Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs
Marv - D. The Hole in the Dike
Paulie - I remember the dike story from when i was a kid but is it available today?
Marv - Sorry, I had a list from a school in Texas but had such a difficult time locating them that I gave up.
Marv - If you come across any to share, I would appreciate your sending them to me.
Paulie - o ok
Paulie - so you don't know the dike story if it is available today?
Marv - The Hole in the Dike is difficult to locate. I got my copy form the Tattared Cover in Denver, CO. They have a huge collection of children's books and if anyone can locate a copy, they can. Also, try the local library.
Paulie - I just thought it was always a part of a book and not a whole story
Marv - Paulie--The best way to teach the levels is for students to come up with examples in your classroom. They can role play.
Paulie - but K students will have a hard time with this
Chris-7th-SocSt - marv- I went to your site today. impressive
Paulie - Is that Tattered or Tattared
Chris-7th-SocSt - I was wondering what type of research you did to come up with your findings.
Marv - Ask one student to bully another and see if they understand. y understand
Paulie - hi Nicki glad u came back
Chris-7th-SocSt - Will you be discussing that tonight?
Paulie - I don't think 5 yr olds are gonna understand that
Nicki - Hi.....
Nicki - I teach fourth!
Marv - There is an example on my website of a bulletin board giving examaples. A is talking when the teache is etc.
Paulie - I thought I read it all must have missed it
Paulie - I will look again
Marv - 5 year olds are like sponges. I have testimonials from kindergarten teachers informing me how effective the levels are and how once illustrated, the youngsters start controlling themselves.
Nicki - Is it possible for you to give some examples of reflective questions when inquiring about a behavior (say, blurting for example)
Marv - Youngsters need a procedure to help them . Have "blurting" youngster make a mark on a sheet of paper before he blurts. If he blurts, ask him if he made a mark first. Continue to ask this question.
Marv - Thanks for the comment about my website. The first link on implementing the Raise Responsibility System will be of great benefit.
Nicki - Thank you....can you tell me which book (of yours) would be appropriate for fourth grade? I have been reading your articles on T.Net, but have not read any of your books yet, but would like to
Nicki - Regarding blurting, you would not ask the question "What level is your behavior?"
Marv - The site http://www.DisciplineWithoutStress.com has a descriptive Table of Contents and 3 sections from the book you will enjoy.
Nicki - Thank you!
Marv - RE: Blurting. Having the youngster do an activity to help remind him of his impulsivity would be my first approach. He may recognize his level is inappropriate, but he will need some activity to replace his blurting. to replace his bluring
Nicki - OK....I will try that! Thank you very much!
Marv - If you think, "What can I have the youngster do to replace his inappropriate behavior?' you will be on the right tract.
Chris-7th-SocSt - marv - Is The Raise Responsibility System tailored for each student in the class or can it be implemented on a grand scale (to say 30 kids at once)?
Chris-7th-SocSt - marv - Is The Raise Responsibility System tailored for each student in the class or can it be implemented on a grand scale (to say 30 kids at once)?
Marv - The levels (the foundation of the approach) can be taught to one child--at school or home--or to an entire class. I taught the levels to the entire class and was almost dazed at how successful teaching a hierarchy is.
PS it's paulie - but would that not depend on the age of the student?
PS it's paulie - I got to get another color I chose red but it came out black brb
Chris-7th-SocSt - What do you mean by a hierarchy?
Marv - Until another question comes up, let me share with you that I heard my friend, Harry Wong, present in Costa Mesa, CA yesterday afternoon. His presentation was outstanding and reinforced the idea to teach procedures before content. The first week of school should be spent teaching and having students practice procedures--how you want them to do what you want them to do.
Paulie - Yes, I tryuly believe in harry Wong's first days of school (you missed a question from someone who asked about hierarchy)
Barbara - I haven't read your book but the articles and the information from your site. It has been very helpful so far.
Paulie - please excuse the typos
Marv - a hierarchy is like a ladder with the lowest on the bottom rung. You may be familiar with Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs--Jean Piaget's hierarchy of congnitive developmeent--or Lawrance Kohlberg's hierarchy of moral development.
Chris-7th-SocSt - I see.
Marv - The foundation of the Raise Responsibility is to teach a hiearchy of social devleopment with anarchy at the bottom and democracy (taking the intitiative to do the right think without being asked) at the top.
Nicki - What do you do with students who are repeat offenders? They just don't seem to be learning from the hierarchy? Do you implement "Guided Choice" ?
Marv - Chris--I developed the program teaching 7th and 8th grade social studies. You can use the hierarchy to analyze and current events or any historical event.
Paulie - I want to know how behavior is documented for report cards or parent conferences using this hierarchy
Chris-7th-SocSt - I can't wait to get your book!
Chris-7th-SocSt - It sounds much different than Canter.
Marv - Here is the best approach for guided choices. Ask, "What should we do about it?" (referring to an inapproprate level). Think: ELICIT an activity--rather than impose one.
Chris-7th-SocSt - Canter focuses on consequences, you don't (It seems).
Nicki - So, in other words, the student will come up with a suitable consequence (for lack of a better word)?
Marv - Chris--The Raise Responsibilty System is 180 degress from Lee Cantor's approach.
Chris-7th-SocSt - I see.
Marv - The Raise responsibility system uses the princpals of Stephen Covey (Be Proactive--teach first), William Glasser (noncoercion), and W. Edwards Demming (collaboration and empowerment).
Marv - Your are right.
Nicki - ....even if the "consequence" is miss recess?????
Paulie - no that is punishment
Marv - Consequences are generally imposed, and the student has no ownership in something imposed. Ownership is essential for long term and lasting behavior change. behavior
Paulie - the consequence I thought would be realizing their error of ways and correcting/trying to it
Chris-7th-SocSt - Is this a realistic approach? What 13 yr. old will impose a logical consequence on himself?
Paulie - I thought the "change" had to be immediately recognized and worked towards
Marv - It is the idea of correcting. The main point, however, is whether or not it is imposed (prompting an adversarial relationship and victimhood thinking) or if it is elicited (bringing empowerment and feelings of control).
Chris-7th-SocSt - I can see how this might work with early elementary students.
Nicki - Thank you for your help....I am very excited to read your book!
Marv - No one imposes a consequencel. It (an activity) is elictied from the student.
Nicki - Can you give examples of appropriate activities?
Paulie - sicne it is dpone with a positive way, then no student thigns they can get out of it but really try to follow the D plan?
Paulie - I cannot type
Marv - The key, after teaching the hierarchy so students have something to reflect on, is honing in on the skill of asking reflective questions. This skill works on people from the ages of three to 103.
Chris-7th-SocSt - I see. I'll have to read your book to understand further.
Paulie - so what about smart alec students who think if they "give" the correct answer they can get away with murder so to speak?
Paulie - and how do other kdis in the class feel about that student gettign away with murder
Paulie - and
Marv - Just walk over to the student and say, "We'll talk after class. Don't worry what will happen."
Paulie - does a student that is out of control or misbehaving work thru the hierarchies or go right to D for a "answer" to solve problem?
Chris-7th-SocSt - Is this a model that needs to be started at the beginning of the year? Or can we begin it after we have a more complete understanding of it? My worry is that I will change discipline strategies on them and confuse them.
Paulie - How can you "talk after class" when the student has a bus to catch or is being picked up
Paulie - Does that stop the student from misbehaving the rest of the day?
Marv - You would have explained to your students that your interest is not in punishing them--but in their enjoying their lives more. And this will only occur if they are responsible. You have no interest in punishing them, but level and and level B behavior will not be tolerated.
Paulie - so what if they keep it up How can u not tolerate it
Paulie - if u are waiting til the end of the day to talk to them/with them
Marv - You can inititiate the Raise Responsibility System anytime during the school year. Kids will not be confused. Tell them one reason you are a teacher is that you enjoy learning. And when you learn something that will help them, you owe it to them to share it.
Chris-7th-SocSt - Ok. You understand my concern, I'm sure.
Marv - If you can't talk to the student after class, let him worry all night. When you see him next isolate him by having him tell you what he has come up with to change his behavior. If he says, "I don't know," you say, "As capable as you are, I don't believe that." POINT: Be positive and empower the student--rather than overpowering hime--which does not change his behavior and brings you stress.
Paulie - but what if they are continually doing the same thing alld ay because they are not corrected/punished?
brad - At what point do you intervene to develop a plan?
Marv - It is a mistaken notion that punishment changes behavior in a lasting way. Punishments satisfies the punisher more than it changes behavior of the punishment. If punishment worked, the same students would not repeat inappropriate behvior or be repeatedly sent to detention.
brad - I agree
Paulie - I understand not using punishment
Marv - For more on the subject of using external approaches to change behavior, visit the website http://www.AboutDiscipline. com
Paulie - but if they say they don't know and go all day misbehaving what do u do?
Paulie - it says can't find the website
serena - www.aboutdiscipline.com
serena - type it in--link does not include .com
Marv - You intervene to develop a plan when what you have been doing is not working. You collaborate with the student by (1) letting him know that you don't know how to solve his problem and need his help
Marv - sorry: http:///www.AboutDiscipline.com
brad - Okay, so you teach the levels and begin the questioning technique. What if behavior is persistent?
Paulie - thanks
brad - I mean, many self-correct when you bring it to their attention, but then they're "right back at it" say twenty minutes later.
Paulie - I think that is what I been asking brad
Marv - or (2) say, I need your help. It is amazing how effective asking for help is.
ally - Can you explain how this works with special needs children, specifically children in the autistic spectrum?
brad - At what point does it become enough of an issue to warrant a plan? And please explain the plans. It's been a long while since I read book.
Marv - Give choices. Let the student know that he chooses to enjoy the class or not--but that inappropriate behavior will not be tolerated. The choice is his or hers. Help the student then come up with a procedure to implement a plan for better behvior.
brad - Once the plan's been designed, what 's the next step. Should we be tracking successful implementation?
Marv - With autistit children, behavior reinforcement is necessary.
ally - does that include taking aware desired things/objects?
Marv - Forget about keeping records and tracking. Let the student do that. He is the one who shoulc be doing the work--not the teacher.
brad - Maybe a pad to keep tally marks taped to the desk??
Marv - Hope I have helped some of you. I will be in New York City Upper Manhattan and Harlem the last Wednesday in September--so my connection may be a little slower. But I'll be on.
Paulie - if a child makes a better plan and tries why should they be puunished with tally marks to remind them they did not do so good
Paulie - I gues sit is time to day goodbye . . .
Marv - Suggestion: see some of the articles on my website http://www.MarvinMarshall.com under "PROMOTING RESPONSIBILITY."
Paulie - I thought I read all on the website and also got the newsletter
Terri - Hello first timer here
Paulie - thanks
Marv - Last comment: the tally marks are not punshments. It is an attempt to have the child reflect to control his impulses.
Marv - Until next month, Adios
Chris-7th-SocSt - Thank you so much.
Gazette Articles by Dr. Marshall:
- Ronald Reagan and the Art of Influence (June 2009)
- Discipline Is a Liberating Word (May 2009)
- Eliciting vs. Punishments (Apr. 2009)
- Habit vs. Awareness for the 3 Practices and for the Hierarchy of Social Development (Mar. 2009)
- How to Be Consistent (Feb. 2009)
- Teaching is an Art, Not a Science (Jan. 2009)
- Tapping Into Internal Motivation (Dec. 2008)
- People Do Better When They Feel Good (Nov. 2008)
- The Brain and Sleep (Oct. 2008)
- Using a Butterfly Analogy to Explain the Hierarchy of Social Development (Sept. 2008)
- 5 Classroom Tips (Aug. 2008)
- Discipline Without Stress, Inc. (July 2008)
- Visualization (June 2008)
- Promoting Responsibility - Or How Not To (May 2008)
- Immaculate Perception (April 2008)
- A System Is Superior To Talent (Mar. 2008)
- To promote responsibility, Elicit Rather Than Impose (Feb. 2008)
- Understanding Boys (Jan. 2008)
- Descartes' Error: I think; therefore, I am (July 2003)
- Metacognition -- Thinking about Thinking Is Essential for Learning (June 2003)
- Listening Lessons -- How to Help Kids Learn and Comprehend (May 2003)
- Approaches of Outstanding Teachers (Apr 2003)
- Using a Discipline Approach to Promote Learning (Mar 2003)
- Curriculum, Instruction, Classroom Management, and Discipline (Feb 2003)
- Learning and Relationships, The two are inseparable (Jan 2003)
- Accountability in Schools (Dec 2002)
- Suggestions For Motivation (Nov 2002)
- Given Names - When NOT to Use Them and when TO Use Them (Oct 2002)
- The Power Of Hierarchies (Sept 2002)
- Use the Language You Want Learned (Aug 2002)
- Observations From Last Year (July 2002)
- How The Horse Whisperer Trains a Wild Mustang in 30 Minutes (June 2002)
- Using Breath Management for Better Listening and Voice Preservation (May 2002)
- Reducing Stress By Promoting Responsibility--Rather than by Attempting to Manipulate Behavior (Apr 2002)
- Rules Vs. Expectations (Mar 2002)
- How to Achieve 100 Per Cent Student Participation (Feb 2002)
- Positivity, Choice, and Reflection Exercise for Students (Jan 2002)
- Learning Climate (Dec 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 3) (Nov 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 2) (Sep 2001)
- Reflection and Self-Evaluation (pt 1) (May 2001)
- The Empowerment Of Choice (pt 2) (Apr 2001)
- The Empowerment Of Choice (pt 1) (Mar 2001)
- Power Of Positivity (pt 2) (Feb 2001)
- Power Of Positivity (Jan 2001)
- Home Assignments (Dec 2000)
- Collaboration is the Key (Nov 2000)
- Classroom Meetings (Aug 2000)
