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Kathleen - Teachers.Net is pleased to welcome author Jay Carter to talk about 2 of his books, "Nasty People" and "Nasty Men". Jay is a psychologist and professional speaker from Pennsylvania. Jay, what else should we know about you? :-)
Dr J - I'm in a good mood.
Kathleen - Ok, that's a good sign, anything else?
Kathleen - Dr. J, Please explain the dedication you used for "Nasty Men": "To those butterflies who still hang out with caterpillars."
Dr J - I am about ready (August) to self publish 4 books, one of which is "Butterflies Don't Land on Manure", and "Love: The 'L' Word"
Dr J - "Butterflies... "is fictional. The "L Word" is enlightenment AND practical!
Dr J - I have almost always found that an abuser picks someone who is better than him/her to degrade and sponge off of. Hence "Butterflies hanging out with caterpillars". The abuser usually as a lot of potential, but usually stays a caterpillar.
Kathleen. - Dr. why the dedication to great great grandchildre, such a remote generation? (In "Nasty People")
Dr J - The butterfly usually has a low self esteem and is unrealistically critical of themselves, and opens themselves up to the invalidator who insures their esteem stays under his/her control.
Kathleen. - Sounds something like moth to flame??
Dr J - If I can stop the contagiousness of abuse in my family getting passed on down from generation to generation, I wil have saved tens and hundreds of people in my own family. Do you realize how many great great great grandchildren most of us will have?
Kathleen. - Jay, would you define "invalidation" and what forms it can take?
Dr J - Moth to flame. Yes! The victim 's low self esteem says she/he can't do any better. So therefore, why not find a frog with "potential" ... kiss them ... and see what happens. Almost always (99.99% of the time), the invalidator is just a frog with potential. You know what untapped potential is? Nada!
Kathleen. - would you define "invalidation" and what forms it can take?
Dr J - Invalidation is "making someone an invalid or just plain invalid. It makes someone feel as small as the period at the end of this sentence.
Kathleen. - Examples of invalidation (behaviors)
Dr J - Invalidation can be physical (bad), emotional (worse) or sexual (worst). The sexual abuse is worse because it invades the mind, body, and SPIRIT.
Kathleen. - Are men more likely to be invalidators?? Why?
Dr J - Examples: Physical (punch someone in the nose to get your way) Emotional (Make someone feel small for not giving way) Sexual (Make someone feel dirty, shamed, and violated to have your way with them)
Kathleen. - Would one person exhibit all 3 types of behaviors, or do the invalidators each have a "specialty"
Dr J - Men and women seem to be even-up for invalidation. They just approach it differently. Others have pointed out, however that short people seem to be equipped with powerful invalidation techniques.
Kathleen. - Do some victims literally attract invalidators?
Dr J - Invalidators have their specialty based on their own background. Physical and mental abuse are learned behaviors, so if you do it, you probably learned it from someone. Rapists, for example, usually include threats of violence and emotional abuse. They are so sick that they may even pass a lie detector test because they really don't think it was that wrong.
Kathleen. - What range of damage can people experience from people who invalidate (the extremes)
Dr J - Invalidators hide a lack of confidence with their arrogance, they hide a lack of self esteem through a big ego (EGG: The Big Penis Car). They are usually savvy enough to know that their partner is better than them, which scares them, so they try to keep them down.
Kathleen. - Are rapists classic examples of invalidators..low self-esteem, need to control?? Is that why we hear that rape is not a sexually motivated act, but one of violence/anger/control?
Dr J - range of damage - Anywhere from annoyance to death. I have pewrsonally seen someone invalidated "over the edge" and committed suicide. Sure, you could say they did it to themselves, but they WOULDN'T have except for the opportunist invalidator who cunningly and deliberately pushed them off the clift.
Dr J - Most rapists have problems with Mom. Mom was either a prostitute, crazy, or enabled the hell out of them. One rapist (incurable usually) hates women. The other (curable with jail and consequences) merely thinks women exist to serve him.
Kathleen. - You are a director of a women's shelter..how many are in shelters because of invalidators? Most?
Dr J - Some rapists suffer from low self esteem due due being raised by a man-hater mother who took it out on them. A little boy forms his personality by the time he is 5. Who is with until he is 5? Mom. Who gives him his self esteem? Mom. That's why men can't stand it when they think the woman they are with thinks badly of him.
Dr J - All shelters exist because of invalidators. You must keep in mind though, that invalidators are created, not born. It is the MECHANISM of invalidation that must be stopped. Most physical abusers were abused and most have had terrible childhoods, with the exception of some who were just enabled and think they can ALWAYS get their way.
Kathleen. - In "Nasty People" you say that the best way to make an invalidator lose his grip is to invalidate him..yet your subtitle: "How to stop being hurt BY them without becoming one of them"..seems to be in opposition to that tactic????????
Dr J - I do not advise that the invalidator gets invalidated, but I have also lived long enough to know that when you have tried everything, then HURTING a bully will make them think twice before they attack you again. It's ot optimum, just an option of survival.
Kathleen. - Are there implications for educators in recognizing how invalidators are created?
Dr J - There are a lot of invalidators who have tenure in college, most anyone who has a degree has run into one of them. They usually try to get positions of authority because they can't stand taking direction from anyone else, and they can't stand it unless they are in total control. All you have to do is remember when you were treated unfairly by someone in power to know that invalidation must be carefully avoided with our children.
Kathleen. - Dr. J. please explain your statement in "Nasty People": "There is no such thing as an invalidator."
Dr J - Invalidators are created by invalidators or by victims (enablers). The invalidator's limits and boundaries get all messed up. They feel "unreal" sometimes.
Dr J - It is the mechanism of invalidation that gets passed on down to those people who I initially call "Invalidators". But there is no such thing as "an invalidator". People do not normally stay in the roll forever, only when they feel threatened in some way. Your invalidator boss may go home to his wife and children and be a loving man ... after he has taken out all his aggressions on you.
Sandy/K/Mo - This is just a lot to absorb.. making me think of some of my kids Mary K&1 - Can a victim ever fully recover?
Dr J - I have seen many victims recover. They usually become invalidators for a time until the pent up rage and emotion is purged, then get a hold of themselves. WoW! What I have seen. Role reversals like you wouldn't believe.
Sylvia/CA - How can we get 'young invalidators' to realize, or admit to, what they are doing? I have 10 year old students who seem to thrive off of putting others down...
SarahW/2/TX - Dr. J can you share with some signs of an "invalidator in the making" Child-sized?
Dr J - A child "invalidator in the making" would be this poor kid who is verbally and emotionally abused to the point that he feels WRONG, has suppressed rage, and feels out of control. This "poor kid" grows up to be just like the invalidator (winner).
Mary K&1 - What can we as teachers do when we see tendencies in children?
Dr J - Affinity works well. Find something to like about the little invalidator and then like it and tell him so. They lack so much affinity (love, affection, etc) that they will want to please you. ADMIRE the kid for something real. Would you displease someone who admired you? It's simple, but hard sometimes.
Sandy/K/Mo - do you see that messy/angry divorces have any bearing on the kids becoming an invalidator?
Dr J - The singlemost factor that stands out in a child's upbringing that has the most negative effect on kids is PARENTAL CONFLICT whether or not the parents are divorcing. That has been statistically shown in the most recent surveys.
Kathleen. - Do many children go through the stage of looking like an invalidator?
Kathleen. - Does every one bully others at some point in life?
Dr J - I think we all may try to get our way. It is the job of children to test their limits and boundaries in life. It's a real pain for the parents, but God made them cute, so we don't kill them.
Kathleen. - Don't all kids try out the role of bully at some stage of their development?
Dr J - Maybe not all. Some kids get their way by playing the victim so that some enabler comes to rescue them.
Kathleen. - Dr. J, you said earlier that you have 2 more books coming out..why not tell us a bit about each
Mary K&1 - Do you have any other books published at this time?
Dr J - I will remain online after the conference is over for those who wish to talk. I have all night.
Kathleen. - Tell us about your new books :-)
Dr J - Basically, Nasty Men and Nasty People are the only ones available. I am going to re-publish a book called Self-Analysis in August.
Kathleen. - Did you say that you have a (fictional) book coming out soon?
Sylvia/CA - Dr. J... I appreciate your offer to stay on after the formal conference!!
Dr J - The new books are fun. One is called "Butterflies Don't Land on Manure", and it is a fictional book sort of. It is about Caterpillar Jack who becomes transformed and reluctantly meets his soulmate. The other is called "Love : The 'L' Word" which is actually republishred and revised. It is about love and how we have made it a four letter word. It helps remo0ve all that other stuff that we feel we have with it.
Dr J - I can be reached at sencarter@compuserve.com
Kathleen. - why is Jack reluctant to meet his soulmate??
Dr J - Jack is reluctant to meet his soulmate because he has made up his mind that he doesn't HAVE TO yhave a woman to be happy and has realized that there is no such thing as "the one". Just when he has all this straigyht and he doesn't NEED anyone, his soulmate passes before his eyes. And she is the one, but not the WAY he thought. He thought she would make him whole, but soulmates don't come along until you are ready to meet them (ie:when you are already whole)
Julie/2/IA - Thank you Dr. J. This book would have been very helpful with my last administrator. Nite all!
Mary K&1 - Do you have a Web Site?
Dr J - Sorry, no website. Kathy Noll has a website. Do you recall what it is, Kathleen?
Kathleen. - Ah, smart Jack ;-) Do you ever write for children?
Kathleen. - Kathy Noll: http://members.aol.com/kthynoll/bully.htm
Kathleen. - Dr. J, where would people find your new books? most stores? just Amazon?
Sylvia/CA - So, Dr. J, you said your newest books will be published in August? Will they available in most bookstores?
Dr J - No sylvia, You will probably see an advertisement in the parade. I got tired of my publisher sitting on the books and just collecting money. If I self-publish, I have more control. It will be published by Unicorn Press - not the one in Greeneville, the one in Pennsylvania. It will be orderable through bookstores by September.
Kathleen. - Parade magazine, Sunday papers, right?
Dr J - Hey, if you want a first autographed copy, just send me an e-mail at sencarter@compuserve.com I'll trust you for the money. I know teachers are poor, but they are honorable.
Mary K&1 - Link to purchase - Nasty People - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809244063/teachersnet/
Dr J - Yep the Sunday Parade.
Sylvia/CA - Hmmm... I don't get the Parade... Maybe you can post something on our chatboard.. or notify Kathleen... OR.. my email address is cali@ntr.net You can email me, if it's not too much trouble...
Kathleen. - Dr. J, if you give me the info about prices, shipping charges, I'll post it on the site. Tell us now, then send an e-mail to me
Kathleen. - I think we'll contact Dr. Jay rather than have him reach each of us..I'll post the inof on the site
Sylvia/CA - Okay, Dr. J! I'll email you!!
Gumbo/K/La - Good idea, Kathleen.....
Dr J - When I respond I don't mean to sound like I know it all. It's my opinion, but other ppeople have their own opinions and it is just quicker to write it that way.
Dr J - So, has anyone met or married or lived with a very suppressive person?
Sylvia/CA - Now... back to invalidators... When I talk to the parents of students who constantly belittle others, they, too are in denial... Any hints on how to handle this?
Sylvia/CA - Dr. J, I've taught with very suppressive people!
Kathleen. - Dr. J. what else do you do (when not writing)?
Dr J - When I am not writing, I am babysitting my 3 & 6 year old 3 times a week so their mother can play tennis. I also just recently built a swing set/fort for my boys. I also support my 3 grown-up children with money and moral support through school. When I am not busy I feed my food addiction and go to overeaters anonymous before I have to buy the next size underwear.
SarahW/2/TX - sometimes I wish I just had control!! ;-)
Sylvia/CA - Sarah! I'm with you! My addiction is Teachers.net!!
SarahW/2/TX - mine too!
Kathleen. - Sometimes people say that many become teachers because they are control freaks...I don't see that in a great many cases but what do you think?
Kathleen. - It would seem that a 'control freak' would go crazy as a classroom teacher!
Dr J - Most teachers are wonderful and have good intent. But there are some teachers that make the other teachers working lives hell, and do not have the right heart for teaching children. I'm sure none of you have ever met anyone like that (Heh Heh!)
Sylvia/CA - Dr J!!! You know us so well!!!
Dr J - MY wife just got home and told me to be sure to clarify that when I am watching the children, I am not "babysitting". That phrase just sort of slipped out.
Kathleen. - BABYSITTING.... yes, she has an excellent point!!! Tell her I agree ;-)
Sylvia/CA - Dr. J! Tell your wife that I a the same thought! hee hee!!
Kathleen. - So, Dr, J. 'nasty men' build up their women just to cut them down?
Kathleen. - I know a couple like that...he builds and cuts...she bows, but she is happy...really does seems to be happy..maybe he's not as bad as appears to me from the outside
Dr J - Yes, Nasty men get control of a low self-esteemed woman but 1. building her up, 2. Making her dependent for her self esteem on him, 3> Being able to pull the puppet strings by giving or witholding self-esteem. Good Question!
Sylvia/CA - Dr. J... I hope you don't mind if I resubmit my question for your consideration...Now... back to invalidators... When I talk to the parents of students who constantly belittle others, they, too are in denial... Any hints on how to handle this?
Dr J - Sylvia, If you can give them the analogy of a lightening bolt. You can deny it's existence, but it will still char-broil your butt.
Kathleen. - Sylvia, you might want to rephrase that for the parents, or not ;-)
Sylvia/CA - Well, I guess I mean that parents deny they have any part in how their children have a need to constantly put others down...
Kathleen. - Dr. J, so Sylvia's point is, can she cure the parents who are creating the invalidator?
Sylvia/CA - They will often say they don't know where their child picked up this strategy for dealing with others....
Mary K&1 - What are addictions and why do we have them?
Mary K&1 - Are addictions a form of submission?
Dr J - Mary K, Addictions, my area. I believe people who use substances are looking for love. The submission to substances happens after the person is addicted and has a love/hate relationship with the substance. There is still the notion they have control. EG: "Hell, cocaine is not addicting,. I've been using it for ten years and I'm not addicted!" The submission (surrender) comes when you realize you are powerless over the substance. Only then can you get well. Sounds paradoxical, I know.
Mary K&1 - Why don't school have more psychologists on staff?
Sylvia/CA - Mary, we have psychologists on staff, but they mostly deal with assessment of students with 'special needs'. What we need are counselors who can just talk with kids and give them the time and attention they need. (IMHO)
Sylvia/CA - IMHO=in my humble opinion
Dr J - Sylvia, Yes, but very expensive.
Sylvia/CA - Dr J... Yes.. I know it is expensive, but I see it as being cost effective. Unfortunately, I suppose that most won't go for it because they won't see troubled kids... They'd see happy kids who got the attention they needed. We tend to be RE active rather than PROactive...
Kathleen. - Does the cause have to be determined in order to reach the cure?
Dr J - Kathleen, I shouldn't be saying this as a psychologist, but it has my experience that sometimes the cause does not have to be determined to extract a "cure"
Gumbo/K/La - bye, all......Thanks! (gotta get that butterfly book!!!! ;-)
Kathleen. - Gumbo, me too!!
Kathleen. - Boy, a psychologist could have a field day in our chatroom!
Sylvia/CA - Dr. J... when would be a good time to send you the email for the newest books?
Dr J - Yes I have to Re-Mind myself about the love thing. It always seems to manifest as an eye looking for itself, when it actually comes from within like a well that never runs dry.
Mary K&1 - If Dr. J wants some good material for another book, he'll hang around Teachers.Net!
Kathleen. - Dr. J, e-mail your mailing address, the total charge for each book or combination of books, and I will post the info so that people can even send checks when they order
Dr J - OK, The charge for each book is $9.95 and $2.55 P & H. Two books P & H = $4.00, then it is one dollar for each book after that for p & h.
Sylvia/CA - Well, folks! I enjoyed this session! Dr. J!! Thanks for staying on for this informal part of the session!!
Kathleen. - Dr. J, we have a Chatroom at http://teachers.net/chatroom if you would like to drop by anytime to, well, chat :-)
Dr J - My wife is going to Princeton soon for a championship. If she wins, it's out to Phoenix for her. Which means I have the privledge of caring for our two wonderful little boys for a while.
Mary K&1 - What kind of championship?
Dr J - Kathleen, Sounds good. I'll drop by.
Kathleen. - Wow, so your wife is a professional?
Sylvia/CA - Dr. J! You would fit in PERFECTLY with the chat folks!! As Mary said earlier, you might find the makings of a NEW book in there!
Dr J - Tennis Championship. She is a jock.
Sylvia/CA - I need to be on my way! Thanks for the session, everyone!! Bye!! Good night!
Mary K&1 - WOW! That's really cool! I can't play any sports!
Dr J - My wife is also a nurse for the ICU. She watches these people come in to her ICU that eat poorly, then comes home and loving abuses me for my eating habits.
Mary K&1 - Bye Sylvia! When are you guys going to come clean about the round up?
Kathleen. - It must be difficult managing to do both nursing and tennis competition??
Kathleen. - Well, it wasn't free for all..I submitted questions for most of the meeting..audience observed, last 15 minutes they submitted questions
Dr J - She will probably save my life too. I eat better when she is around. She disgusts me though with her PERFECT diet. She is always eating some darn thing that is good for her. I'll never understand how she can get her favorite dessert, and the only eat half, and save the rest for the next day.
Dr J - OK, Any other questions/comments? It's beddy bye time.
Mary K&1 - This has been fun, thanks for spending so much time with us!
Kathleen. - this was good therapy :-)
Dr J - Mary K, Thanks, anytime. It was fun for me too. It's a good group.
Mary K&1 - Teachers.Net people are really GREAT!
Kathleen. - Jay, thank you, it went very well!
Mary K&1 - Watch the ChatBoards now and then, you could offer lots of good advice
Dr J - Ok. Stay in touch. Sweet dreams!
Kathleen. - Goodnight, then, Jay!!
