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Mary K&1 - Good evening, and welcome to our Reading Recovery Meeting. Tonight we will be discussing the Hard to Teach.
Kathleen - I thought I should be here as a specimen (one of the 'hard to teach')
Doug - mary- can we also talk about flatlining? I have a kid who has been at an 8 for 2.5 weeks
Mary K&1 - Not you, Kathleen :)
Kathleen - I promise I won't stay and disrupt the meeting. Mary, will your group be discussing the thread that is on the main chatboard right now related to the effectiveness of RR?
Mary K&1 - Sure Doug, this child is Hard to accelerate, right?
Doug - Mary- you bet
Mary K&1 - We weren't planning on it, but it may come up
Mary K&1 - It sounded like that person was talking about research done in AU. Ohio State compiles ours
Kathleen - I'll be peeking in sometimes, even though I'm not a RR teacher. :-)
Lori - Hi Doug! I'm a Reading Recovery Teacher in New Mexico.
Mary K&1 - Doug, that plateauing happens, you have to examine your records and see what's holding him up
Doug - Hello- I teach K and 3 RR kids. This is my first year after training
Mary K&1 - Doug, how come only 3?
Kathy - Sometimes kids flatline when they have been dependent
Mary K&1 - Doug, is his letter knowlege strong and flexable?
Kathy - Also, you run out of the best choices of books for a particular child at a level and then you only have poorer choices of books to go with at that level!
Doug - Mary- our district got permission from Ohio State provided we are also teaching a class of K's.
Kathy - - are'nt you in California using Clay's Kinder model?
Mary K&1 - Also, how's his word chart looking? It should be ballooning, that's when they really start to take off
Doug - I don't know about the specifics. I was given the option and I took it. Three kids is heaven!
Mary K&1 - I teach a K class and 4 RR kids, the schedule is really packed, I don't have time to breath
Kathy - Doug, are you in California?
Doug - Mary still some letter confusions with p and d and b.
Doug - Kathy- yes
Maureen - We have an ongoing concern here in Lubbock about students who are slow to get a system of learning words. Suggestions??? Lori, are you in training??? I heard New Mexico had joined RR.
ses - I'm a 1st grade teacher in Texas--We have heard of reading recovery --is it successful?
Mary K&1 - I think it is, and the kids I've helped do too, not to mention their parents
Kathy - Clay made an implementation monitoring visit to California. She met with school administrators about issues, and trying to squeeze in 4 lessons when only 40% of the day was left was an issue. She gave us permission to try teaching 3 instead of 4. The results will be monitored at OSU. It is considered a pilot.
Mary K&1 - Maureen, what are you doing in Making & Breaking?
Doug - maureen- do they write words on the chalkboard before familiar reading and the timer starts?
elsie - I could use help getting a word base. I have a couple of students who forget the words as soon as they get a new one.
Maureen - With the students who are learning words, it is more alphabet sorting and only a bit of making & breaking with their knowns.
Maureen - Doug, hey the timer starts before the fast writing of words.
Doug - Maureen- yes with early levels. I think the guidebook suggests not starting M and b until at least 30 words are known
Mary K&1 - Maureen, if they don't have letter work mastered, their word work is going to not get going
Mary K&1 - Doug, that's 20 letters before M & B
Doug - Maureen- but it is not part of the lesson. Just like my pile/your pile
Doug - Mary- thank you, I stand corrected
Maureen - I agree, Mary. The meagre vocab. is always a problem when selecting (or making) books. I made 21 books for one such student THEN he moved!!!
Mary K&1 - Don't stop letter work too soon, the rest will not happen until they have those letters under control
Debbie - I am a Kindergarten teach in a school with RR and soaking up knowledge.
Gina/MO - When do you do Your Pile/My pile?
Mary K&1 - Gina, that's not something that you have to do, only do it if needed
Gina/MO - I usually do it during making and breaking also!! I haven't really done it that much before this year but it has really seemed to help develop that core of known words!!
Mary K&1 - Those "Short Books" are great for getting the High Frequ. words into the known realm
KD - Sorry I am late. Have you talked about teaching letter names or sounds? I have a child on lesson 22 and still isn't fluent on letter ID. I've done salt, water on the board, ABC book, finding letters in text... HELP!!!
Mary K&1 - Kd, do lots of mag. letter sorting, and read BL on learning letters
Maureen - Anyway how do you know when they are "out" of the meagre vocab. syndrome. How many words should a child have under control say to move into middle levels (6-10)?
Mary K&1 - Maureen, move them when they are doing well, 90% or above, not according to how many words they know
Doug - Gina- I do it after the lesson, after the first reading of the introduced book. do you have a better time?
elsie - I do your pite/my pile during make and break
Maureen - Mary, What "short books"?
elsie - What are Short books?
Mary K&1 - Maureen, something new the year, check the archive of our last meething, I put the contact info there
dkt - Gina-- are you talking about "your pile, my pile?"
Maureen - Well, they generally are not doing well. Natural language coupled with the low # of words see to that. Thanks Mary, I will check the archives.
Todd - I agree with you Gina; I used it much more this year and got my kids out of that meagre knowledge of words area faster
Gina/MO - I'm not familiar with the "short books"!!
Maureen - My Pile /Your Pile doesn't necessarily lead to being able to WRITE the word.
dkt - Could you explain how you would do your pile / my pile -- do you write only known words? Or words you want them to know ??
Doug - Maureen- I agree. I only do it with a kid who is really having trouble
Mary K&1 - Can these hard to teach kids say words slowly? Are they in sound boxes? Can they get 50% of the word or more?
Doug - dkt- it is explained in full in the guidebook, p. 55
Kat - At what level our your RR now? What is an appropriate level for this time of year?
Gina/MO - I had a parent that was VERY concerned about her child memorizing the books I was sending home so that is when I developed your pile/my pile!! It really worked for her!! Iput about 30 words on index cards and used them---most fairly know and a few unkn
KD - I do letter sorting every day, read BL. Have been very systematic with wht letters I teach and how. He has other strengths but we are hitting a wall with the letters. It almost seems more like a retrieval problem but he needs to be able to own them in some way. Any other suggestions?
Mary K&1 - Kat, levels 6 - 9 are good for this time of year
Doug - KD- can you bring a word to fluency with magnet letters after you do some letter sorting
Maureen - KD, That's it - a retrevial problem, they know a letter (or word) for a day, but it gets covered over and they can't retrieve it easily.
Mary K&1 - KD, have you tried making a letter very large on the Ch B and have him drive a matchbook car around the letter telling which why he is going? Then you record the words that he uses and use those words every time?
Gina/MO - Sorry about my message last time--It didn't print it all!! I meant that most of the words are fairly known words and a few are new words!!
Ryn - Hi I'm a Title 1 teacher and I find that many of the children who were in RR last year and 2 years ago are now with me. How can I keep this from happening? I get very frustrated with this
Kat - Short Books - I recently heard of these books from collegues at a continuing contact mtg. The Short Books, 23800 15 Mile Road, Big Springs MI 49307 616-796-2167.
Doug - Mary- good one
Mary K&1 - To learn about Short Books, read the archive of last month's meeting - http://teachers.net/archive/index.html
Sadie - Hi Ryn. That is very discouraging to hear. What kind of classroom programs do the RR students return to?
Maureen - Mary, Great idea with the driving a car. I can picture it for some children with some letters.
Doug - Short Books I believe have an address in the Fountas Pinell book on Guided Reading
Sadie - Boy, Gina. You aren't kidding!
Mary K&1 - Be sure to use the child's language in letter formation, and be sure that they say the name of the letter every time after making it
Debbie - As with any program...children need continued support from the classroom teacher and parents.
Kat - When you mention a retrevial problem, I think of one of my students. My teacher leader suggested going from a level six back to a level four to be sure that a strong foundation is in place. Is this something that others have done?
Mary K&1 - Kat, that is a common thing to do if the pieces aren't falling into place, you should also be pushing for fluency much earlier that we had been doing
dkt - Any suggestions for students that move S-L-O-W-L-Y through the levels? I have 2 students who are progressing but almost as slow as this chat board tonight
Sadie - Did anyone read the posting about Reading Recovery that was on the chatboard?
Mary K&1 - Short Books are new this year, The car thing has really helped my low guys with their letters
Maureen - Ryn, Reading Recovery can't be the only good teaching they have.
KD - Doug-he learns words easier. I have started with ML words now that he has more!! Will keep that up and see if it helps. Mary-, WONDERFUL idea with matchbox car, I'm up to my son's room now to look for one for tomorrow! Wish this whole chat process was faster. Good night!
Debbie - Associating a letter with a "thing" they know helps my students. B-butterfly. And saying them together each time.
dkt - I read it! It was quite a bashing of reading recovery and it;s research!
Mary K&1 - dkt, be carefull, was that person quoting OSU research or AU research, or literature?
Sadie - Ryn, what do the RR teachers say about their former kids not progressing?
elsie - Any suggestions for a child who won't make any sounds when trying to read an unfamiliar.
Ryn - In second and third grade they come to me. I then lose about half of them to Special Ed. the dyslexia program, MTA, When we do get testing in second grade, many of them are classified (labeled?) slow and nothing can be done until they have a big enough discrepence between their IQ and they level of achievement.
Kat - What are some new ideas (adaptations) for teaching fluency?
Doug - elsie- that is a form of searching. Do you say "try something?"
Sadie - Ryn, where do you teach?
Ryn - In second and third grade they come to me. I then lose about half of them to Special Ed. the dyslexia program, MTA, When we do get testing in second grade, many of them are classified (labeled?) slow and nothing can be done until they have a big enough discrepence between their IQ and they level of achievement.
dkt - elsie-- take a small card and cover all but the first letter of the unknown word-- have the child start the sentence again and tell him to say the first letter-- then cue to M & S
Ryn - Some discontinued and some were dismissed due to lack of progression.
Debbie - Our RR teacher covers the words read to push the students eyes across the sentence more quickly.
Gina/MO - I didn't read the RR article on the chatboard!! dkt--I have three RR students that are progressing at a VERY slow rate this year also!! they are only on levels 4 and 5!!
Kat - Any discontinuing taking place yet?
Mary K&1 - I have one close to discontinuing
Doug - I have one close as well
Lori - I also have some that are close
elsie - I urge him to try something but he says he's doing it in his head. I'm quite frustrated trying to get him to be more verbal.
Doug - kat- when we do the cut up, I group them into pharases and I encourage phrasing and fluency.
Mary K&1 - elsie, when the child won't even try, tell him to get his mouth ready, but be sure that he knows the sound for which to get ready, if not, grab a letter book
Sadie - Kat, try choosing texts that lend themselves to phrasing and fluency. Just be careful not to limit your choices to that.
Doug - gina- are they self-correcting, rereading, articulating during sound boxes. Look for the positive
Ryn - They usually just shake their heads and shrug their shoulders. The second round students are more successful with the program. I have a child now that has such a problem with speech that I really don't know if he is reading the words, but the rhythm and intonation sound reasonable. In a suburb of Dallas
dkt - I think it was talking about the early research from reading recovery and then saying that RR never lived up to the "early results" so I imagine they were referring to the AU/NZ research-- It was a brutal articile
Sadie - Are there any teacher leaders in the room?
dkt - I have one child who is close to discontinuing-- what level at this time of year do you discontinue your students at?
Kat - I have a level 9 student and it seems to take forever to get through her running record book. She reads at a 90% on the running record but it frustrating. Any sugestions?
elsie - What level are you discontinuing at?
Gina/MO - Yes--Doug!! Thanks for the encouragement!! I see progress but I don't really feel like it is acceleration!!
dkt - I didn't respond to the article-- I felt a bit intimidated by the attack to be honest
Kat - DKT - I plan to discontinue a child at level 10 next week. His class average is approx. an 8.
Mary K&1 - dkt, I'm shooting for level 12, she's at 10 now, but I want to get some writing things stenthened before I move to Dis.
Doug - Kat- try doing shared reading. Especially with those silly PM readers
Sadie - Kat, lowering her level in familiar reading may help. Be sure you praise any fluency you hear. Remember, the child attends to what the teacher attends to.
esmerelda - If we are talking about the Reading Recovery Program (Clay) is there a research based group to evidence if it is significant? Do students do well in attitude and achievement?
DAC - Kat - Try having her read much lower level familiar reading and work on fluency. Also work on fluency with cut-up sentence. You may want to drop down a level and look for faster processing.
Gina/MO - The one student that was doing the best and who was on a level 7 2 weeks ago MOVED!!
dkt - I was told NOT to discontinue until at least level 12-- because that is when their self regulating strategies are really in place
Mary K&1 - Kat, drop her down a level or two and push for fluency and problem sovling on the run, when they are that slow, it's too hard for them
Sadie - Kat, we are told not to discontinue below a 12 no matter what the class average is. They need to at least at this level to have developed a self-extending system. What do you think?
dkt - What level do you discontinue with in May/June???
Mary K&1 - esmerelda in the USA, contact Ohio State Univ.
CLW - Hi! I'm looking for a website that can explain RR and provide evidence of its effectiveness. Any suggestions?
dkt - I meant to say "self extending" not self regulating!! Whoops!
Mary K&1 - In May level 16 at least
Doug - Sadie- don't forget about writing 40 or more words quickly and showing processing
Mary K&1 - CLW try here http://www.amihome.com/rrca/rrcarr.htm
Sadie - esmerelda, Richard Allington who is very much into research calls Reading Recovery one of the best early interventions (i'm paraphrasing) in his book "Classrooms that Work"
sadieluck - I have a student that is very manipulative. She reads well only when she wants to. We are at level 4 after 15 weeks. Any thoughts??
dkt - We were told that we have to discontinue at Level 19 or above-- It is a real nail bitter in June!!!
Doug - CLW- try the north american reading recovery council. you can find it through a search engine
Sadie - Doug, did you hear about the speaker who is going to be at UCR next Monday?
Mary K&1 - here's another link that may help http://www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/ucomm/points/edcation.html#rr
Doug - No, who?
Mary K&1 - dkt, where do you teach?
dkt - I teach on Long Island in New York
Maureen - I'm back after being vaporized 3 times. Level 19, my books for that level are untouched.
esmerelda - Mary, Thanks , but what I want to know, if in comparison to the Dunn's Learning Style Model, is RR as effective? Do teachers know when they are using it, if it has evidenced significance or is it another bandage approach for the struggling reader?
CLW - Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.
Mary K&1 - sadieluck, that's a hard one, have you layed down the law with her? Told her that It's her job to read well all the time?
dkt - Maureen-- really??? I don't have enough of them which makes May & June interesting--
dkt - esmerelda-- I am somewhat familiar with Dunn & Dunn's learning style research-- they also work with Marie Carbo -- I haven't seen any negative "vibes" coming from that camp as to reading recovery.
Doug - esmerelda- learning styles have never been published in a refereed journal especially the ira or the ncte, these are the two organizations that reading research appears to first show up on.
Dot - Maureen, I'm with you-In June we are hoping for level 15-16.
Mary K&1 - CLW, I can tell that it works, I taught first grade or 23 years, often having the "low group" I searched and searched for something that really worked, I tried everything that came along, Reading Recovery was the first thing that I found that really worked!!
sadieluck - Yes. I have resulted to bribing her. I tried making books with only her solidly known words, but she was bored. I have been having some success with the more interesting books at levels 4 & 5. But it depends on the day.
Sadie - esmerelda, the goal of RR is to discontinue students at or above the average of the class. It is an early intervention as opposed to a remedial program.
Maureen - sadieluck, does she feel that she sucessful, achieving something?
Mary K&1 - When you follow the child, you have to use his learning style
dkt - I'd like to go back and reread it -- hopefully at a quicker pace!!
dkt - Gotta run! Same time next month???
esmerelda - Doug, Rita Dunn's articles on learning styles has and is currently being published in several refereed journals.
sadieluck - I thinks she feels successful, but again, it's only when she wants to read well. She's really quite a puzzle to everyone who works with her.
Mary K&1 - Any topic suggestions for next month?
esmerelda - Sadie, thanks then its objective is similar to the learning-styles approach.
Gina/MO - Bye,dkt!! Hang in there and thanks for dropping by!!
dkt - WRITING!!!-- And the CUTTING of the sentences!
Dot - At a recent conference Barbara Watson states that 15 weeks is the goal for discontinuing. How do you feel? This is about 5 weeks before we have traditionaly been thinking of it.
Sadie - Well, i need to go. I'm going to try back later if you're still here, but if not go to the chatboard when you are done and read the article. I think a few responses would be helpful.
Mary K&1 - esmerelda, Dunn and Dunn have been around a long time, they are why we are finally using Balanced approaches and lots of hands on and others
Debbie - Thanks for letting me learn from you. I will suggest this to our RR teacher. When is the next chat?
dkt - Barbara Watson doesn't teach in the USA -- where there are more days off in the fall than we can count!
Gina/MO - Sadie--Who is coming to speak next week?
Mary K&1 - dkt, writing, that's a good topic, thanks
Dot - Like the topic of writing also-
Mary K&1 - The 4th Monday of each month
Mary K&1 - Thanks all for coming and contributing, I'm sorry that the server was so slow tonight
Gina/MO - I like the idea of having this RR chatroom!! I think we can gain many ideas from each other!!
Dot - I have to get to my lessons for tomorrow-being observed by new teacher leader. Night all. See you next month.
Mary K&1 - Dot, 15 weeks could be the average, I was told that the ave. was 12, so 15 doesn't sound bad to me
Gina/MO - Good luck, Dot!!
Mary K&1 - Dot, good luck
MAM - Mary K&1 Is "week" defined as a 5-day unit or varying number of days?
Mary K&1 - MAM, a week is a calendar week, even if there was just 1 or 2 lessons
Mary K&1 - Days off, absences, etc. can play a negative on weeks :(
Mary K&1 - Well, thanks for coming tonight, I have to go now, I hope to see all of you at our next meeting, Good Night
