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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight's topic is "Second Round RAK."
Mary/PA - pd, are you into the second round?
Doug - mary- do you teach how to use sound boxes during raoming or do you save it for beginning lessons?
pd - I'm going to discontinue 1 this week
Mary/PA - Doug, I don't teach anything during RAK
Mary/PA - I save the new stuff for lessons
Doug - pd congratulations
Mary/PA - We do a lot of reading easy texts and writing...the child dictates and writes what he/she is able and I do the rest, of course I model saying words slowly while I do the writing
Mary/PA - But I don't ask them to do it, but they usualy start because they imidate me
Doug - mary- do you do lots of read alouds during roaming
pd - I just went on a collegial visit last week and the teacher I observed brought a student into RAK at a 4 and she started lessons at an 8.
Mary/PA - I suspect that will be the case with my kids. They know more than the OS showed
Doug - pd- where are you from? I am from Southern California
pd - I'm in San Diego.
Doug - I am in colton...north about an hour on the 15
pd - During my coll. visit, we discussed the importance of phonem. awareness and how to use it in some part of the lesson.
Doug - pd- are you refering to sound and letter boxes?
Doug - manipulating onsets and rime are also examples of pa
pd - This RR teacher did a sort of oral making and breaking before looking at the mag. letters.
Mary/PA - pd, Phonemic awareness is taught during M&B and applied during reading and writing, don't you think?
Doug - Is Pat Kelly training you in San Diego?
Mary/PA - But we do add the visuals to the phonems
pd - Then the child would be using the rhymes orally before attempting them with letters/words.
Mary/PA - pd, that is a good thing to do
Mary/PA - Doug, when you go back, where will your kids be...lesson wise?
Doug - mary- there was an interesting study done a few years ago at the east coast and they included pa activities with the lesson and found fast acceleration......one thing concerns me though..Clay was clear about saying that Rr can work no matter what the classroom teachers orientation to reading is...any ideas?
pd - I was trained last year through SD county. Pat Kelly visits training group but this year she is training teacher leaders thru SDSU.
pd - Do you think playing around with PA during roaming is "teaching"?
Mary/PA - Doug, I guess I don't understand your concern. Phonemic Awareness is something that all good readers need. When we say words slowly or put onsets and rhymes together, we are working in this area
Doug - mary- week 2 second round and OS testing
pd - But the kids should hear the onset and rhyme first before they see it.
Mary/PA - pd, I guess it depends upon what kind of "playing around" you are doing
Doug - mary- my concern is that Rr kids usually do poorly in pa and incorporating it into lessons more so may give classroom teachers even more reason for using direct reading, Open Court and other programs that espouse pa
Mary/PA - pd, yes they should, in theory, but sometimes, the visual helps some kids make the connection.
pd - I have not begun my 2nd rounders, so my brain isn't thinking RAK yet.
Mary/PA - There's a difference between PA and phonics
Mary/PA - Doug, we never want to lose the balance for each child, all thre cues should be kept in balance, and each child will be different
Doug - Mary yes...and RR teachers are usually curiculum leaders for schools and we must be on our toes with pa
pd - mary and doug, what are your 2nd rounders coming in at on texts?
Doug - TR- 2 and 3...one is quite hesitant and overuses memory and the other will sail with a few strategies under her belt
Mary/PA - pa in its pure sense is being aware of the sounds in words, onsets and rhymes, segmenting and puttng together, etc, just the sounds, .... but we have to go beyond and the the visual symbols in there as well. When the visuals are brought into the picture, it's no longer phonemic awareness, we are asking the child to apply his awareness and build associations that he can use in reading and writing
Doug - Mary- well said
Mary/PA - pd, 1 at 1 and 3 at 3
Doug - Mary- do you let second round kids take home books during roaming?
Mary/PA - Doug, I should add that the child can't apply something if he doesn't have it
pd - mary, that's why I think PA needs to be a part of the lesson. I asked a kid today what he noticed about the endings of play and say (during fluent writing) and he looked at his white board and said "Y". He did not notice the -ay chunk. Ugh!!!
Mary/PA - Doug, yes I do, I let first rounders take books home as well, I always have, is this something I should be doing?
Doug - pd- did you take the magnetic letters and show him?
pd - I let my RAK kids take books home. They are so excited that they can read them.
Doug - mary yes....some teachers at my school wait until formal lessons....as far as i can tell...the GB does not mention homework
Mary/PA - pd, maybe you should have asked "what do you notice about the sounds of play and say?
pd - Oh, he figured it out after we looked at it again, but it wasn't his first response.
Mary/PA - or what do you hear that is the same .... or different
pd - , we are fortunate to have 4 RR teachers on staff this year, so my 2nd rounders are probably at an 8 or above.Oh, he figured it out after we looked at it again, but it wasn't his first response.
Doug - mary- do you use fluent writing before the lesson begins...some people do at my school and some don't
Mary/PA - Doug, I don't call it homework...they are usualy so happy to have books they can actually read all by themselves, that they are excited to take them home to share with someone
pd - Doug, do you fluent write with all your kids or the hard to remember ones?
Mary/PA - Doug, yes I do, but not when the child is close to the end of his program, by then, they don't need it any longer
pd - what kind of letter work do you do during RAK or do you do any?
Doug - Mary i do but I have leaned to do my pile/your pile instead.....I meant learned
Doug - pd- sort known letters
Mary/PA - Doug, how does my pile, your pile help the child learn to write the works fluently?
Doug - snap and my pile/your pile are very effective and described in the GB where it is hard to remember
pd - Now I'm not the most studious person and I don't know my GB by heart, but I though that we were supposed to keep texts whole in RAK and not isolate letters or words. Am I wrong?
Doug - mary its an addition to the lesson before I even turn on the timer
leftcoast - Can anyone help me with a child who does not know the letter names (5 still not known) even with a daily alphabet book use, and does not have sound/symbol correspondence except for a few sounds, and has been dropped by the speech and language path becuase he is never at school for her sessions? He is at level 7, first round
Mary/PA - those help the child learn to recognise the words, but if we want them to write the words, we need to give them practice writing ... they need both of these activities
Doug - pd- yes but eventually you want to transition the child to lessons and if LI is not under control it will be addressed during lessons...sorting just gets the kid ready (I think)
Mary/PA - leftcoast - what are the 5 he doesn't know?
leftcoast - f,g, h, v,y
pd - Are the letters he doesn't know visually similar to other letters? Because then he needs to overlearn the known so that when the confusion occurs, he'll think, "It can't be b, because I know b"
Mary/PA - leftcoast - can you find some kind of association that means something to him?
leftcoast - his response to htese and many other questions is i don't remember, what's this again?
Doug - leftcoast- except for v and y you can sort them alland they are visually different enough
Mary/PA - Leftcoast, what are some of the associations that he does have? And does he really have them, or has he just memorised a certain item for the letters without really understanding what it is he should be attending to?
leftcoast - We use the alphabet book where he has put a picture of his own to the letter. If I tell him to put an e on the end of a word, he'll say, what's an "E", and if I say egg, the picture in his book, then he associates back.
Mary/PA - Can he get his mouth ready?
Doug - leftcoast- just an idea...keep a class list of his first grade to refer to and can use that as a reference to check at your lessons and at reading recovery
Mary/PA - leftcoast, he isn't attending to the right pieces if info, he is thinking that everything he has to do is someting that he has to remember
Doug - Mary is very correct...perhaps he thinks that reading is memory
Mary/PA - leftcoast, have you done a lot of letter sorts with him?
leftcoast - No, he can't get his mouth ready, because he has no sound association for the letters.He is memorizing some sight words, from whatever assosciations, usually first letter, but not aways, but ins't making meaning .
leftcoast - Lots and lots of letter sorts. He can match upper and lower case of the unknowns.
pd - Doug, have you tried the class list idea yourself in RR? I use the class list in my K class to assoc. letters/ sounds. It seems like a great idea for RR.
Mary/PA - eg. put a bunch of e's in with other letters and just have him sort out the e's, saying ee each time he pulls one out
Doug - pd- its effective but if you serve 3 classes your wall looks visually busy
leftcoast - He doesn't seem to transfer from magnet letters, to reading, to writing. eg, he'll make play with magnet letters, but not be able to read it.
pd - My wall is busy anyway. One more thing won't hurt.
Doug - leftcoast- not as a cop out but what does the teacher leader say when he observes?
Mary/PA - leftcoast, teach him how to get his mouth ready...keep it on an oral level first, until he can get his mouth ready for any word you say...don't just do this while he is reading and writing, during reading and writing he needs to apply that skill, but he can't apply it if he doesn't understand it
leftcoast - I'm sure he does think that reading is memory, and that you just remember the whole story and the words will come out right! Yet, when he saw a sheet of words with commonly used words that I had for another purpose, he identified them out of context!
Mary/PA - am I making any sense?
pd - Does anyone have any good strategies for squelching appeals?
pd - How do you make 'em stop looking at you?
Doug - pd-sit behind the child slightly
Mary/PA - You try it ... I won't help until you try it first
leftcoast - I use sound boxes alot, it seems to help him hear some of the sounds in writing. I just feel like I am missing a major connection somewhere. He has been "identified" as unable to process language, but I don't think that should get in the way
Mary/PA - Wear a brown shopping bag over your head
leftcoast - lol
Doug - pd- my teacher leader made a song and dance thing by putting the book on her forhead and saying aare you looking at me because the book is on my face....it depends on the child and the humor used
Mary/PA - Really, get a clipboard and sit or stand behind them so that they can't look at you
pd - cute
pd - Is there a topic for the next chat?
Mary/PA - pd, what would you like?
pd - I can't think. I'm braindead.
Doug - mary- lets review self-monitoring, self-correcting, searching and cross-checking
pd - What I really want to talk about is writer's workshop with my Kinders, but this is the wrong cahtroom.
Mary/PA - how about keeping our teaching to the strategy level, not getting down to the item level too much
Doug - sounds good
Mary/PA - pd, you you attend the EC chats on Tuesday evening?
Mary/PA - That would be appropriate for that group
pd - I have not . How often are they?
Doug - thank you mary...thanks everyone else
Mary/PA - Ya, Doug, strategies
Mary/PA - pd, every Tuesday at 9:00 eastern time
leftcoast - how often are RR chats? The one I saw posted said the 22nd, and I just lucked into this one
pd - Thanks for the info, mary.
Mary/PA - Thanks for coming this evening
leftcoast - thanks for the helpful ideas
Doug - pd- the next one is a review of the Pinnell fountas approach to guided reading....check the archives and you will find 2 to 3 chats archives on kid writing...its a conference approach to writing its a start
Mary/PA - RR chats are on the 2nd and 4th Mondays of each month
Doug - bye and thanks again mary
Mary/PA - Have a good week everyone!
