Join the Reading Recovery Mailring listed in the English Center at the
Teacher Mailring Center
http://www.teachers.net/mailrings/
Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight's topic is "Strong Skills Which Block Learning."
greedycat - When I was visiting a teacher earlier today we took a look at this section of GB because she was asking about a student who was "huffing and puffing" sounds out letter by letter.
Mary/PA - Greedycat, that's probably because her teacher and her parents are always telling her to "sound it out"
greedycat - She wanted to know if it was ok to put her hand over the text and stop the student immediately
Mary/PA - During the rr, no, but any other time yes
greedycat - I asked about that too...figured they had Hooked on Phonics but RRT said that parent had indicated 'no.'
greedycat - Right....the teacher was very clear about stating that she knew she couldn't say anything in rr
Mary/PA - The GB says, "*Penetrate the old pattern by splitting it apart over space and over time."
greedycat - Yes...and we looked at the sentence that says "Prevent the inappropriate behavior....."
Mary/PA - How could this be done in a situation like the one you've mentioned?
Mary/PA - Hiding the text is one way, are there any others?
greedycat - We discussed really prompting meaning
Mary/PA - Structure too
greedycat - you're righ
Mary/PA - We've been talking about what to do when a child is over doing the searching of V
Mary/PA - The GB says, "Sometimes children fail to integrate cues from different sources because they tend to focus on one kind of cue ignoring discrepancies in the other types of cue."
tyykee - Sounds like the child needs to learn how to use chunks and make analogies, sometimes they just have to have strategies to get to new words, meaning won't do it all the time.
Mary/PA - I think that we realize this, but the GB is short on solutions
leftcoast - Asking what would make sense?
Mary/PA - My second rounders don't know how to think of the story
greedycat - that makes the orientation to the story even more critical then, doesn't it....if they are having trouble thinking about the story
Mary/PA - I prompt for this often, and even site exact things to think about, but on their own they seem to not remember to do this
tyykee - Sometimes a child who is using visual too much needs easier text so that meaning comes quicker and will be used as the first strategy, and then checked with the visual.
leftcoast - I seem to have the opposite problem. THey remember the story, and make it make sense, but the text doesn't match
greedycat - 95% or above, according to BL p. 307 or the matrix of cues becomes blurred = no integration
Mary/PA - They have great memories for text and what they have been told, if I tell them too much, they are using their memories rather than strategies...it is a narrow path to tread
leftcoast - I think therein lies my problem
Mary/PA - greedycat, then the text needs to more challenging?
tyykee - I have had good luck having the child tell me about the pictures as a part of the book introduction rather than my telling him/her about them. Or sometimes I will cover the print on the page and instruct the child to look at the picture and then uncover the print and have them read it.
greedycat - no....if it's harder than 95% it becomes non-progressive
leftcoast - I'm a real novice. what's BL?
greedycat - fluency is also an important piece because when the reading slows down, the reader is more likely to use visual info. to guess
greedycat - BL=Becoming Literate
leftcoast - thanks
Doug - Are we still talking about children who overuse one cueing source and fail to orchestrate on continuous text?Are we talking about children who fail to use more than one cueing source or children who fail to orchestrae their strategies on continuous text?
pd - Hi, Mary. I've focused a lot more on meaning this year. Usually the book intro has set the meaning for the story. Visual has been coming in after meaning with my kids.
Mary/PA - The GB says, "Move cautiously towards fluency. The child may manage to control a new response by thinking about it, and although this makes for slow, responding, he may then be able to control the old rapid, unthinking, response." This makes sense, but there is so much talk this year about pushing for fluency, are we getting in the way sometimes when we work too hard for fluency?
greedycat - classic RR answer...
Mary/PA - Doug, all of them. Each one will block learning, don't you think?
greedycat - "It depends" on the child . Once control is established of a particular strategy, then you work for flexibility and fluency
leftcoast - my tl says that if they are not reading fluently they are not reading for meaning, and that familiar, running record, and new text should all have about the same fluency sound
Doug - Perhaps finding what the child does well...my problem is using a child who is a low-repotior child to start using strategies
Doug - sorry about my bad grammar
Mary/PA - When background knowledge is lacking, where do we start?
Doug - At a conference this weekend, we were presented on things to use when you get a 0 on CAP
leftcoast - I'm listening
greedycat - hmm..repeated readings help to build fluency so it would seem that familiar rereads might sound more fluent than the FIRST reading of a new book
Mary/PA - Lots of "in the ear and out the mouth"? This may promote memorization. Lots of searching V? I don't think so. I suppose that leaves Meaning
Mary/PA - Do tell us about it Doug
Mary/PA - Please
leftcoast - yes, please, doug
Doug - She suggested to start right away with cross-checking...use the child's name and make books during roaming....she also showed us how keeping to an agenda keeps us on target and focused
Doug - Clay spoke about the power of writing and she taught us more about early writing behaviors
pd - Doug, did you see Diane DeFord's presentation about teaching to an agenda? Interesting..
Mary/PA - What is meant by agenda? Focus?
Doug - barbara Watson wants us to build words lots of words so much so that the child can free himself to try harder things with writing and not get bogged down with teaching went for 10 days...LOL
Doug - Mary yes
Doug - Barbara Watson also warned us not to quote her because what she says one day may not be true the next day
Mary/PA - How do you build words? What is meant by this? When? How?
pd - Watson would not even allow an audiotape of her presentation because she felt that her message would need updating soon.
greedycat - I saw Barbara Watson at the Greensboro NC conference this year too. She talked about not using fluent writing review.
Doug - Watson wnats a word a day...Clay feels that learning 30 to 40 is fine because you can get to other words from those 30...this excludes word families
jeri - hello, seems like building new words comes in writing and making and breaking
pd - Watson said when you work on bringing a word to fluency in writing that you must keep at it until the child knows it...otherwise it's wasted time.
leftcoast - but can you get to new writing words from their writi
leftcoast - sorry.
Doug - Dr. Watson showed us some interesting examples from sound boxes and visual perception problems.....
Mary/PA - Not using fluent writing? This is starting to sound contrary
greedycat - Yes....she said that in NC too.
jeri - what Watson says makes sense, they need lots of exposure, in lots of different situations
greedycat - The rationale for no fwr was that it looks like word level teaching and gives a false impression of RR
Doug - underwater letters should go below the box but a tall letter can stay inside
greedycat - we should be TEACHING the word in writing
Doug - she told us that about fluent writing and reminded us that in later lessons it may not be necessary and it is a strategy for hard to remember kids
greedycat - the only exception was "a child who is having an inordinate amount of difficulty learning how to learn words"
jeri - Doug, what do you mean "underwater letters", is this new?
Mary/PA - OK, that makes sense
Doug - I'm sorry lets get back to tonight's focus
Doug - g, j, p they can go below the bottom line in sound boxes
jeri - ok, ic
Doug - t, l, k are tall examples and they should stay inside the sound box
pd - I thought she said to make the boxes for underwater letters hanging down.
jeri - I have never done that, it is new to me
Doug - pd- I wish I could draw this....
Mary/PA - What does Marie mean when she says in the GB, "Move with large movements before refining the pattern."
jeri - I understand what you are saying Doug
Mary/PA - This is to unlearn an inappropriate reading skill or response
pd - Mary, under which section of the GB?
leftcoast - such as?
Mary/PA - Strong Skills Which Block Learning
Doug - Clay stated her talk about the power of writing by telling us something she noticed many years ago in the 1960's and she is still thinking about it...why when you say to a preschooler read a bit and they grimmace but if you say write a bit...they smile and start right off
Mary/PA - p 53, I think
tyykee - Good point Mary, I wonder just how much time we should spend making sure that the letters are exactally correctly formed and each 'underwater'letter is below the line. Isn't that partly why we use unlined paper, to free the child who is learning from the constraints of lines.
pd - Sorry, I don't have my GB handy.
jeri - I am sorry I arrived late, what is your focus of tonight's chat?
leftcoast - hey, 3 seat, I'll call you later with the stuff you missed last Wed.
jeri - thank you Mary
3seat - thanks leftcoast....
pd - Tyykee, Watson was very firm about letters being formed correctly, spaced well, etc. I think the underwater boxes helps the child visualize the correct letter without getting "tricked".
3seat - mary strong skills as in those that become dominant and others neglected?
greedycat - I think that part of the emphasis on letter size, formation, etc. was related to the LOOK of words in text
Doug - pd...didn't Watson say letter work should even go into the middle of the program even after all are named ok on OS...she wants them to notice fine details
Mary/PA - I think that kindergarten teachers and first grade teachers should spend more time on handwritting. I get RR kids who are struggling with how to make letters. They don't know where to start, which wat to go, the peice the letters together in a very time consumming manner, this is such a shame
Mary/PA - 3seat, could be, anything that is over shadowing something else
pd - Doug, yes, and they should come fluently and rapidly.
3seat - i agree mary....have a little boy who shapes his 'w' in the strangest manner says his teacher told him to do it that way (i kind of doubt that)
jeri - my most common problem it seems, is confusions of b/d p/q b/p. It is very difficult to teach with some children. I know not to teach both at same time. etc. but still have trouble with some
Mary/PA - My lowest child this round makes letters different every time she goes to make one. She doesn't have a system established
tyykee - I have a second round child who has relied on memorizing words and can read at a level 9 but can't/won't sound through and/or visually check new words. She just makes meaning and goes on. Any suggestions. Sounding through words is very hard for her but she can do some words if I insist.
3seat - tyykee...how does she do with making and breaking activities
leftcoast - looking for parts of words or thinking of similar words
jeri - after you say, "it could be, but chec the first letter" also bring up a magnetic letter matching first letter of the word
pd - Mary, I had a similar problem with a child up to his 17th week or so. I just dropped M&B for a while to firm up those letters because it was slowing him down.
Doug - tyykee- masking and jumblemagnetic letters isn't working either....start cutting onset/rimes in the cut up sentence echo it in all places
Doug - at lunch a tl told me that it may not be such a bad idea to regive the OS mid program to check on teaching
Mary/PA - Here's an interesting prompt from the GB - "What sounds can you see in that word?"
Mary/PA - For the child who is using only meaning
jeri - yes, Mary, I use that prompt
Doug - mary- I know that one....don't you just love the guidebook?
3seat - i find the 'get your mouth ready' the prompt that has helped my kids
greedycat - tyykee...how does this child do with boxes in writing? Have you tried having her think of words in text as though they were in boxes if that is a strength for her.
Mary/PA - People think we're nuts! What sound do you see...but we know what we mean, don't we!
tyykee - Once the pattern is established she does very well with M&B. She understands how to use chunks and even sees them, she understands rhyming words, but she can't put sounds and chunks together across the words and come up with the correct word. She sometimes gives me a word that doesn't even start the same as the word she sees even though she has just made all the correct sound chunks. I have been working with her in Lit. Group all year and have modeled this over and over but she still has great difficulty.
Mary/PA - tyylee, sounds like she has no phonemic awareness
Mary/PA - can she blend words when you say them broken?
3seat - tyykee--i have a daughter who had the same sort of problem...she has difficulty with sequencing and i think for those kids it takes awhile to string together what they can do in isolation
Mary/PA - Or is it just when she says the parts that she can't put them together?
greedycat - good night everyone and good luck with your 2nd and 3rd wavers
tyykee - Sound boxes are also difficult for her. She can write many words fluently but new words are a problem. She can usually get the first and last letters and sometimes the vowels but beginning and ending blends are something she just doesn't hear. We have stretched and stretched but unless I say it slowly for her she just doesn't hear all the sounds.
Mary/PA - Thanks greedycat
Mary/PA - see you next time
leftcoast - 3rd wave"
leftcoast - 3rd wave???;-0
leftcoast - :-0
3seat - wow leftcoast are we behind the 8 ball or what....3rd wave?
Mary/PA - have you tried the PVC phone to help her hear herself?
3seat - mary what is pvs phone?
3seat - sorry pvc phone
leftcoast - another something new---PVC phone?
Doug - Again I was reminded this weekend that with writing we go from small phoneme level and in reading you go from meaning first, story level.....perhaps learning the alphabet as sounds may be a way to go with your little one....perhaps she is not strong in going sound to letter
Mary/PA - two elbow PVC joints put together to make a little phone that directs the child's voice right into his/her ear
leftcoast - Kewl, I'' try it
3seat - wow mary now we have to be plumbers too
Doug - tyykee- when a word is shown in magnetic letters can she put her finger under it and slowly make the sounds....is this checking?
Mary/PA - We'll be whatever works to get the job done
tyykee - No, I haven't tried my 'phone' with her. Good suggestion. She knows her sounds and many chunks, just can't put them together and come up with a word. And can't always hear them when writing. The cut up sentences seem to be helping her and doing things with the magnetic letters and white board and then going back to the word in the text seems to be helping.
leftcoast - I have a first rounder that doesn't know his alphabet letters yet, and doesn't have sound relationships to them
Mary/PA - What do we want to talk about next time?
leftcoast - anything, Mary, I always learn so much, and feel ready to go back and try some more
3seat - leftcoast is this a new one? did you discontinue the one you were hoping to?
Mary/PA - We are about to finish up here
pd - There were some very interesting and powerful ideas about writing at the conference this past weekend. It might be good to share next time.
leftcoast - Yes, writing would be good
jeri - I am curious. At what levels are your students exiting the program. The average in my school is already above level 22
pd - Jeri, we are in the same boat>
Mary/PA - pd, writng would be a good topic for next time. I hope you can be here, as I didn't go to the conference
jeri - pd???????
tyykee - My first round children discontinued at L16 in mid-Feb. However they are still in the lowest reading group in their rooms.
3seat - mine are much lower jeri....level 13 student is at the top reading level in K/1 class (9 ones)
Mary/PA - good grief jeri! ours are no where near that!
3seat - glad to hear that mary
Mary/PA - I'm on week 5 and the levels range from 4 - 8 right now
pd - I know. The frightening thing is that the 1st grade teachers think there are learning problems with these average kids at 14-16 right now. Ugh!!
jeri - my students are nowhere near that, (level 16-17 or lower) but classroom ave. is so high
Mary/PA - they came in at levels 1 - 3
leftcoast - Thank you Mary, this is SO good for us newcomers.
pd - Our second rounders are coming in with at least a 10.
jeri - my students come in at levels 1-3 also. a couple are at level 13 now. will not be able to discontinue. not enough time to get to classroom average
leftcoast - My 9only) 2nd rounder is at level 7 week 5
3seat - 3 of mine started in Jan at level 1....they range from level 6-10 now....one at level 6 i am very concerned about
tyykee - My second round children are on week 5 and are all in Level 8-9 now.
Mary/PA - Oh my! Our kids discontinued at 16 to 18 in Jan and were way above average! What's going on?
3seat - mary...kids at my school would be in the same boat don't worry
Mary/PA - tyylee, at what levels did they enter?
Doug - bye everyone...very interesting chat....see you in 2 weeks...
3seat - bye doug
Mary/PA - bye Doug, thanks for coming
Mary/PA - see ya next time
pd - Mary ,are we skipping any weeks? Ithought there was a break in the schedule somewhere.
Mary/PA - pd, what do you mean?
tyykee - This is very interesting as I teach in a low achieving school. My second round children entered at levels 5-7. But we are fully implemented and these children are much higher than the first rounders. Also several children in the classes were identified for Special ED. before we could get to them.
3seat - leftcoast are we at D/C school this week?
pd - When I checked teachersnet meeting times, I though there was a break. Maybe I'm wrong...
Mary/PA - tyylee, I see, sounds like things are working well in your school
leftcoast - yes, DC. this week I won't be there
Mary/PA - We meet on the second and fourth Monday of each month
3seat - would you let me know if i have to prepare anything out of the ordinary for Wed.....thanks
jeri - Was so great to find this site. Do you meet every 2 weeks?
leftcoast - 3seat check bottom of our screen
pd - Goodnight all...it was fun chatting.
jeri - ok, thanks Mary. Goodnight all from Idaho. see you next time, I hope
Mary/PA - 3seat, what's on Wed?
Mary/PA - Good night jeri
Mary/PA - Good night jeri
Mary/PA - and pd
tyykee - Have you followed your children over the years? I was very disappointed that my first year children who discontinued did not pass their state test in third grade. They can read but didn't do well on the comprehension parts of the test.
3seat - leftcoast....bottom of our screen??
leftcoast - thanks Mary, I always get so much out of this. 3seat and I have our training teachers meeting on Weds.
3seat - mary that is when leftcoast and i have our rr meetings....we are in same district
leftcoast - 3seat,, just above where you tye your message.
leftcoast - type
Mary/PA - Oh, you two know each other if real life!! That's great!!
3seat - I don't see anything there leftcoast........
Mary/PA - Well, I have to go now, thank you all for coming and I hope to see you all next time as well. Good night
leftcoast - see you in 2 weeks
tyykee - Got to get to bed (even if it is Spring Break here) Hope to see you next time.
leftcoast - 3seat, or I could just stay on and chat with you for a few minutes
leftcoast - We are to reread Section 9 for the meeting
3seat - sounds good leftcoast...i have to go save my lasagna in about 3 minutes
3seat - hey how did you do that private message thing
leftcoast - We did not have a behind the glass, but had to role play making or breaking, which was actually good
leftcoast - where it says send to room, down arrow, hit the down arrow
3seat - better go get food before family dies of starvation
leftcoast - me too, I'll phone you
