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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight's topic is "Teaching for Independence."
Tyylee - Hello Doug and Mary, just had Continuing Contact today and we learned that we are going to do our end of the year reports online rather than on the scan forms. Has anyone else tried this yet?
Doug - mary- I think independence is one of the most important things we as rr teachers can aim for with our kids....don't you agree tyylee?
Mary/PA - Yes, we had to have our first round info entered quite a while back
Mary/PA - I like it a lot better than those scan forms
Doug - tyylee - we were told that we can do them next year. Are they easy?
Mary/PA - I think this is a big improvment
Mary/PA - It's very easy
Doug - I think independence is closely linked to high self-correction raitios and good self monitoring behaviors. It seems that these 2 just bring about independence
Doug - have always had to do my scantrons over...really silly mistakes
Mary/PA - Or is it the other way around Doug?
Tyylee - I had a light bulb moment today with a little boy who had been very dependent on having someone help him. Today he was doing the work himself and pointing out to me everytime what he had done to help himself (no need for me to prompt or praise as he was doing it all himself) When he got finished he looked at me and said "I'm getting good at this reading stuff!"
Mary/PA - Does independence bring on the Monitoring & SC?
Doug - tyylee- and those nice when you get to hear them.....
Mary/PA - That's a good sign, Tyylee
Mary/PA - What are some strategies and/or prompts that you use in helping to develop independence?
Mary/PA - Today I told one of my kids, the one who still looks at me or the ceiling or the bookshelf when he gets to a word he has to work on, that if he looked at anything out of the book he had to go back to the beginning of the page and start all over
Tyylee - Sometimes the child needs to take a risk and try something, be willing to admit to making an error and attempt to fix it. Also make an attempt at a new word, not wait for the teacher to prompt. I find that some of my second round children have a habit of dependence already established before they come to me, perhaps because they really don't know how to help themselves. Therefore the first step is modeling and teaching them what to do and only then expecting them to take on the work independently.
Doug - sometimes, teaching for independence will make the work hard . A teacher next to me was over time 45 minutes and Familiar reading and rr book took 20 minutes...good processing and lots of independence but long......has this happened....I told her to do FR at a level where it sounds fluent and phrased and then focus on fluency since good processing was shown in her 45 munute lesson?????/
kinderkate - At our school classroom teachers are beginning to use the word 'strategy' with students. So I asked my students what that meant. "I don't know" or a shrug was the usual answer. So I asked "What is something you do well?" (art, sports, etc) Then I ask what do you do that makes you good at that?answer, then "Good, thats a strategie to do_______. " Now we'll talk about strategies to be good readers.
Mary/PA - That's right Tyylee
kinderkate - Yes, tyylee, many second rounders come to me already with the habit of asking or copying from classmates.
Mary/PA - Yes, Familiar reading should focus on fluency
Tyylee - Mary, have you ever tried sitting slightly behind the child so he/she can't look at your face for help? It helped one of mine realize that he had to do it himself.
Doug - I like to say try it if no initiation is taking place....I also make it the teaching point from early lessons.....
Mary/PA - Every now and then you get a student who will avoid working out problems in a big way
kinderkate - I have a difficult time keeping the lessons short, but when I do I find it works better.
Tyylee - Doug, sounds like the level was too high for that child. The guidebook says that a book should have a minimum of things that the child needs to work on. When we give them something wtih too many new things they lose their fluency and often the meaning too.
kinderkate - I'm just starting lessons with one like that, Mary. She is an ELL and does NOT want to risk. I've been taking the least bit of trying and celebrating it.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, yes, I sit, I stand behind him, he thne looks at the wall or the shelf, he just doesn't want to work. He is the youngest in the family with many years between him and his sister. The whold family has always done everything for him
Mary/PA - He's getting better, but old habits are hard to break
Mary/PA - He has the skills and the knowledge, but still prefers to try for the easy way out
rc - this is my first time in a chat room I hope i can follow along
kinderkate - Sometimes I think that kind of student doesn't realize that every one works to read. It's like they think it's magic or something. lol
rc - thanks! I'm really trying to get my kids indedpent right from the start. I don't think I've done this early enough in pat
Mary/PA - It's so sad, he still can't blow his nose by himself, his mother helps him do that and a few other things as well
Tyylee - For the chilld who doesn't want to take a risk keeping it easy is important until they have built up their self-confidence and are extremely comfortable with the strategies. This child will need repeated modeling and prompting before they feel comfortable working independently. Sometimes the refusal to work on something really means "I am not really sure what I am suppose to do."
kinderkate - I agree, tyylee. But sorry to say I probably don't do enough modeling. Will try to improve.
Mary/PA - Most kids do take pride in working out the difficulties and proclaim their pride in thmselves and their attempts
Tyylee - I have two children right now who don't want to try to work out things for themselves. We talk about it every day. I have been telling them that they need to be saying to themselves "try that again" not waiting for me to say it because I can't be beside them everytime they have to read someting. They are doing better as long as it is at a comfortable level but when it gets a little hard they quit trying after the first attempt.
Mary/PA - When you have a student who has the "When it's hard to remember" problem, are there any special things we can do to thelp them develop independence?
kinderkate - I think we need to bring that to the child's attention sometime, Mary. Today one student FINALLY stuck with it and worked out a problem. I could tell she felt great about it, so as the teaching point I went back to that and instead of asking her what she did, we talked about how she felt when she solved it. Then I told her that I didn't TELL her the word because I wanted her to have that good feeling.
Tyylee - For those 'hard to remember' children we need to involve all thier senses, hand, eye, and ears. We need to make the words/letters in and on many surfaces over and over. I sometimes have the same fluency word for several days until I feel the child is really sure of it.
kinderkate - I agree with Tylee that getting them to "talk to themselves" is a plus. I can remember hearing another teacher's student doing that and thinking it was really wierd - before I realized the benefit. The first time one of my students did it though, YES!!.
Doug* - kinderkate- with ELL kids, don't you think you need to have "richer" book walks and when you pick the child up for a lesson, it should be a time to get lots of discussion for the story.....???
Mary/PA - My most difficult to teach child is one who takes a very long time to learn a word, she also has to work at remembering some letter sounds, has to really think hard about if she is seeing a b or a d, can't seem to keep the story meaning in her head, you know the type of student I am talking about here?
kinderkate - Absolutely, Doug. With ELL kids I also bring more attention to advanced language structure, sometime alter the text and question them to make sure they understand the concept. Sometimes we even do a bit of oral language experience such as " A snail crawls." Show me what that looks like.
Doug* - June- do you do reading recovery?
Mary/PA - Hi June, I didn't see you come in
Tyylee - Especially with these second rounders I have had success giving a quick introduction to a book, talking about a couple of pages and then have the child take over looking at the pictures and telling me what he thinks is happening in the story. We then read to check if his predictions were right. I makes him look closer at the pictures and enables him to put more of the picture cues in his first reading.
kinderkate - I had one like that first round, Mary.In 20 weeks got to level 3. Come to find out he had learning disabilities.
Tyylee - Mary, do you use the b/d made with the hands as a tool for a child to check for himself. I recently had one discontinue at level 20 who still had to check his b/d's frequently because he just couldn't remember them.
Mary/PA - How can we teach for independence with these kinds of children?
kinderkate - I used to have a problem with "predictions". Seems as if the child didn't want to 'lose'. But I saw a teacher tell a child, lets read to see if your prediction is right or if we're surprised. Although he liked being right, being surprised was ok too.
june - Hi everyone, am in 1st year and finding second rounders with more independence than first. Is that maturity and classroom experience or (ha) my experience? more and
Mary/PA - Tyylee, that only works if the child can remember the cue
rc - tylee, I'll often show the children how a and d look alike. Have you tried that before?
kinderkate - About the b/d thing. Are you talking about making the
kinderkate - sorry, bed with hands.
Mary/PA - With this child, I have her think of her name because there is a b in it and she knows it's a b and she never writes it wrong in her name
Doug* - mary- here's one to laugh about....today a collegue was saying hello at the time I was doing soaund boxes with a shy ELL girl...level 7, i was doing the sounding and pushing with her....i needed to change my prompt to say it slowly and listen to the sounds and I need to be QUIET!!!! This is the essence of teaching for independence.LOL
kinderkate - LOL, probably both june. And a good classroom teacher, also. We were just discussing some second rounders who come with LESS independence becasue of bad habits picked up in the classroom.
kinderkate - Oh, Doug, is she a 'low talker'? I had two 'low talkers' one round and was exhausted after trying to hear them.
Mary/PA - Yes, we need to keep quiet
Mary/PA - But at the same time keep them on task
Tyylee - If you make fists with the fingers turned toward you,and then put the thumb up, now start wtih the direction you read by saying a, b, c, d the left hand is makeing a b and the right is making a d. Works for my children.
kinderkate - I don't know Mary, can't get 'b' and it's in her name?? How long has she been with you?
Mary/PA - I have a couple who are very good at getting off task
Mary/PA - We are on week 9
kinderkate - I make the same thing with the hands, Tyylee. However, before that we write a story with 'bed' in it. (easy to get with a question like 'what time do you go to bed?') Then I draw the word 'bed' and make it into a bed, lightly coloring the lower part as a spread, and putting a stick figure in it. Then we make the 'bed' with our hands. (Does that sound confusing or WHAT?? Oh, well , it works for us. LOL)
Doug* - kinderkate- if she discontinues at a 16 and on letter id. gets 52 out of 54 because of the bd thing is she still self-extending?.....how about revisiting the bd once in a while/ Do others feel this way or am I off base?
Tyylee - Doug, don't you think that learning when to be quiet was one of the hardest things to learn in Reading Recovery. I still struggle with it, we just want to be so nurturing that we are often not giving them the chance or the expectations to work independently.
Mary/PA - Doug, If that was her only problem, I wouldn't be concerned, trouble is, she has many others
Doug* - when I heard Clay talk about letters she said clearly that kids will get the letters through learning the 30 key vocabulary words...as well as many other things with the 30 words...
kinderkate - I've had students discontinue who still have the b/d confusion occasionally. The most important thing is that they know that if the /b/ isn't working then try /d/. (or vice versa) don't you think.
Mary/PA - When she is reading, she will mis read words that she knows well, but says something else to make it fit the structure that she has in mind
Doug* - tyylee- it was even harder for me...i'm male..LOL
kinderkate - AAAAAAa - 30 key vocabulary words????? What is this?? I need to know.
Mary/PA - When I take her back to the place where she did this and ask "what is this word" she syas it in a snap!
rc - Doug, I just recently heard Marie Clay say the same thing about getting all the letters through the high freuency words. All of the letters except for three would be covered.
kinderkate - So she isn't using visual, Mary?
Mary/PA - kinder, she uses it as long as it fits with what she has in mind for the story
Mary/PA - She will ignore V when she thinks the book should be saying someting different
Doug* - mary - what happens when you ask what sounds better give her sentence and then the books sentence?
rc - Mary will she go back and s/c
Mary/PA - I tell here that she must make her mouth say what her eyes see, but when on her own, this doesn't always happen
kinderkate - One of my students did the same thing last round, Mary. M & S but little V. Around week 16 he caught on and then got TOO visual. At 20 weeks he bombed because he was sounding out everything. I got permission to keep him 22 weeks, and only worked on making sense and he finally discontinued. Whew. Sometimes they just go back and forth.
Tyylee - Mary, I sometimes have the child 'be the teacher'. I will read them what they said and have them locate the error and tell me how to figure out the word and how to correct it. They love being the teacher and it puts the process more firmly in thier minds since they are in essence doing the work. When I explain that it was their error they are sometimes surprised that they made such a silly mistake.
Mary/PA - rc, sometimes, but not always and not when she is staisfied that what she has said is OK
june - when G. read sheep as sleep in rr book and we went back to it, he proudly said "that's just the way I talk, I don't say things too well..I had to laugh. Those moments keep me going!
rc - is she using at least partial v at error. (is she integrating m,s and v)?
kinderkate - Somebody, please, how did I miss the 30 high frequency words. What are they, or at least where can I find them???
Mary/PA - If she reads with her finger, this doesn't happen as much, but her fluency is totally gone when she has her finger in there. Without her finger, accuracy goes wout the window
rc - kinderkate, I think some of them are listed in the guidebook words such as like, as , is up, the child's name, mom etc.
Mary/PA - Even on familiar texts
kinderkate -
Tyylee - Are those 30 words the ones on the sheet where we circle the ones they know how to write?
rc - mary, it sounds like she's having diffiulty with her visual tracking
Doug* - kinderkate- start with the guidebook and use developing a meager vocabulary....then maybe dolch words
Mary/PA - kinderkate, I'd like to know as well
rc - tylee i'm not sure which sheet you're talking about.
Mary/PA - rc, no, she is not integrating
Mary/PA - rc, there are 20 or 22 in the GB
Tyylee - Mary, perhaps a small ruler or paper under one line at a time would help her focus on the exact words she needs to be checking visually. I have one who gets confused and starts inventing text when there are too many words on the page, seeing only one line at a time really helps her..
rc - mary perhaps you need to prompt her for intergration. praising m and v and prompting for v
kinderkate - I know there is a short list of words in the GB in the writing section. And I know about the words on the OS, writing vocabulary test. But other than that??
Mary/PA - Tyylee, I think that the new training classes aren't given that sheet any more.
rc - when clay spoke about the high frequcency words, she did not specifically tell us what they were. I'm sorry that i can't give you an exact list.
kinderkate - Uh, Mary, just a thought but I had one that didn't use V well until she got glasses.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, thanks, I'll try that. I thought of it at one time, but then forgot
Tyylee - We have a sheet that has about that many high frequency words and we circle the ones they can write independently and sometimes star the ones they can read independently. It helps to plan the new words to teach, and sometimes I have a word they need to know that I try to sneak into their writing story. We were given the sheet in training year along with the Can Do sheet and the weekly record sheets.
june - Any suggestions for a second rounder, level 8, who rubs the left eye constantly, and skips entire lines of text frequently. His mother will not have eyes checked, says it is a habit.
Mary/PA - kinderkate, that was my first thought, but he nurse said that she passed her screening
kinderkate - OK, Tyylee, now you must share the list.
Doug* - june- is it too silly to say make it match?
kinderkate - Can you have the school nurse do a preliminary eye check, june?
Mary/PA - Doug, make what match?
kinderkate - Your socks, silly. (OK - sorry)
Mary/PA - I think that the school screening doesn't do a very good job at finding all problems
june - Doug, not silly, simple suggestions are the best. Thanks! KK, will do that tomorrow.
Doug* - mary when a child skips a line sometimes it isn't a 1;1 correspondence so in those cases i say make it match it is an early startegies prompt
kinderkate - I agree, Mary, but at least it's a start. June, why doesn't the mom want to have the eyes checked. Every child should have his/her eyes checked every other year. Perhaps she can't afford it. If so the Lions Clubs often finance eye screenings and glasses.
Mary/PA - What do we want to talk about next time?
Tyylee - June, have the child cover that eye and read a page and see if there is any improvement. If there is that is more fuel to add when you talk to the parent next time. Maybe have the parent sit in on a lesson and see what the child is doing.
rc - mary, how often do you have these chat sessions
june - Thanks, Tylee. All good suggestions.
Mary/PA - rc, we have these meetings on the 2nd and 4th Monday of each month
kinderkate - OH wait before you all go
kinderkate - Have any of you used the books from Owen publishing?
Mary/PA - No, but I plan on getting them for next year
Doug* - kinderkate- who can forget greedy cat......
rc - which books are from owen
kinderkate - They are called Books for Young Learners.
Mary/PA - I've seen them and they are really good
kinderkate - I have some money from school and had a flyer from them.
Mary/PA - Do we want to compare discontinuing procedures next time?
kinderkate - I looked on internet and they looked good to me, too, mary.
Tyylee - We are getting the PM books from Rigby to add to our collections.
kinderkate - YES, good topic mary. Especially for end of year.
Mary/PA - We've have major changes here and I'm wondering about what others are doing
kinderkate - I LOVE PM's.
rc - i also like pm's]
kinderkate - Oh no Mary, now you'll keep me wondering. I want to know what your changes are now.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, Yes, I use the PM books a lot
kinderkate - You are all still using scan trons, right?
JamieK - i am brand new to chat.
june - Please do. After hearing Mary Fried in Ohio, I have some different ideas.
kinderkate - Hi jamie, are you RR?
Mary/PA - I also like the Sundance books - the little red readers, the little blue readers and the little green readers
Mary/PA - We are using he online way of recording this year
Mary/PA - No more Scan trons for us
kinderkate - Is that your district, mary, or from ohio?
kinderkate - Are they the same questions?
rc - how are our recording on line? Do you have standard sheets to fill out?
Tyylee - I meant to say the new PM Plus books.
Mary/PA - We are using the ohio site for record keeping
rc - what are scan trons?
Mary/PA - I thought the everyone was using it
Mary/PA - We even had to go for special training
kinderkate - What level do you have to discontinue at for first round? end of year?
kinderkate - Scantrons = those awful bubble in sheets.
rc - i'm using the pm with the hard to remember children
Mary/PA - First round, 12, second 16
Doug* - see everyone next time.......thanks for the chat...bye
rc - that should have read Pm plus
rc - wow, we discontinue first round also at 16
kinderkate - I use pm's will all. Usually I alternate pm's with another publisher, so they read one half to one third pm's.
Tyylee - Kinder, that is exactally the focus of Mary Fried's talk, she thinks that exact levels are just for record keeping and are only done after the decision to discontinue or not has been made.
kinderkate - Sam here Mary. Wow rc, where are you??? 16 is way too high for first round. How many weeks do you keep them??
Mary/PA - Thanks for coming this evening
kinderkate - Bye Doug.
rc - we keep them for 12 -20 weeks
Mary/PA - I hope to see you all again on the 23rd
Mary/PA - We will dicuss discontinuing procedures
kinderkate - I don't understand tyylee.
rc - how many weeks do you keep them for kinderkate
kinderkate - We keep them 20 weeks max. I can't imagine getting mine out at 16 first round.
kinderkate - See you, Mary.
Mary/PA - Tyylee, yes, but don't we have to get them to the average of their class? That can vary greatly even within the same building
kinderkate - Of course the GB doesn't ever mention levels when discontinuing.
Mary/PA - Well, it looks like we have a lot to talk about next time, see you then!
rc - mary it seems like it will be very intersting to compare the different discontinuing methods. I hope to return then
Mary/PA - Good night all
kinderkate - They don't care about the average of the class here. Has to be 12 first round, 16 end of year. (Sometimes can slide with 14 end of year.)
Tyylee - Kinder, Mary thinks we should make the discontinuing decision based on their self extending system as reflected on their processing of new books, classroom performance, etc. and then give them the text level mearly to have scores to report. If you can get hold of her Ohio presentation I would highly recommend it. I will look at my notes before the next chat.
kinderkate - Absolutely, Tyylee, I will be here. Sounds like Mary is going by the GB which does not mention levels at all.
rc - good night everyone
kinderkate - Very good chat, thank you all for the info. I look forward to chatting again in two weeks.
Tyylee - In NZ they do not use our text level books.
Tyylee - Night everyone
kinderkate - night all
