Join the Reading Recovery Mailring listed in the English Center at the
Teacher Mailring Center
http://www.teachers.net/mailrings/
Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight we will discuss "Teacher Talk, using the prompts".
tyylee - Doug, I am having a problem deciding if I should consider a child reading a OS level successfully even though they got 90% but was just reading words with no meaning. What do you think?
Doug - Tyylee-no self-correcting and no rereading. I say it isn't reading if there isn't any processing
Doug - Mary- I heard from a TL that we should demonstrate before prompt. What do you think?
tyylee - I really wonder if we should consider it an accurate reading level if there is no comprehension and no meaning. Do you count that as their level on their reports?
Mary/PA - Doug, yes, early in a child's program
Mary/PA - But later, we should not have to do that .... I think
Doug - Tyylee- you remind me of something that happened a few weeks ago. A child was reading a repetitive phrase and I gave him a Told at the beginning because last year another child missed that word on every page. In other words, I gave a Told not to get the child going but to get an acceptable percent of accuracy. has this ever happened to you?
Mary/PA - Charlotte, at what stage are you in your lessons? We are testing now as the end of the year is approaching
tyylee - There has been some discussion on the listserve about the higher level stories on the OS. I have a problem with the number of errors allowed - 50 on one of them. They would have to miss a lot of common words to miss that many. Some children can read enough words to pass but can't really understand the stories. I think those stories need to be revised.
Mary/PA - Doug was it a strange word?
Mary/PA - Do you ever feel that you talk too much in your lessons?
tyylee - I had to bite my tongue today when a child continuously miss read blew/blowed throughout a book, enough times to cause a low %. It did make a good teaching point!!
Doug - I bite my tongue too. My TL has a classic saying...."your doing too much work for the child"
Mary/PA - tyylee, what will your TP be?
Doug - I find that if I have too many teaching points with familiar reading.
tyylee - I went for the ending sound because this child often ignores the endings. Blowed is one of his many grammatical errors and it sounded right and made sense to him.
Mary/PA - Doug, I rarely say anything during Fam. Reading. I may have a point after the child is done with the book. My "too much talking" happens during the first reading. I have problems with that if I missed the mark in the Book Orientation
tyylee - Doug, we were told that if we had too many teaching points in familiar reading that was not a good book for familiar reading. FR should be about fluency and maybe one point.
Doug - tyylee- your right
Mary/PA - Peg, where are you in your lessons?
tyylee - Mary, I have the same problem with too much talking during the new book. It helps if I take a running record of the new book, somehow it reminds me not to talk so much.
Peg - I'm into weeks 8 and 9 with 2nd round kids
Peg - This is my training year. 1st round of kids I took all of them to 20 weeks
elaine - When prompting child to notice larger parts in a word, is it more effective to say: "Look for a part you know", or "Look for a chunk you know"?
Peg - One of my little guys, Freddy is ready to discontinue.
Mary/PA - Peg, When is school out for you?
Peg - Not until June 24
Peg - I'm in central NY
Mary/PA - elaine, I guess it would depend upon what you call it during M & B
Peg - I finally figured out M & B and it's strong connection to taking words apart
Mary/PA - I like using 'part'
tyylee - We are testing and bubbling, school is out June 1. How about you, Mary?
Mary/PA - We are doing our end of year testing right now
Peg - I usually say "part" too
elaine - I've always used the term "part in M&B, but I've recently noticed that I use the term "chunk" in my daily record notes!
Didi - that's the part I'm working on improving - taking words apart
Mary/PA - We are done June 8th, but there are several days coming up where I won't have the kids ... Field days and Field Trips etc.
Doug - Mary- I am finding that many of my third graders are not being placed into instructional levels that I find....do you find this at your site?
Peg - our training class had quite the discussion last week about twair (taking words apart in reading) vs. looking through words
Mary/PA - I had a difficult time getting the kids to transfer what they did in M & B to Taking Words Apart while reading. Any good prompts for this?
tyylee - In the higher levels I find it easy to get in the habit of saying "try that again" instead of using the other prompts.
Peg - I've tried making the statement if you can do it with magnetic letters, you can do it in reading and writing. Not that it is a RR prompt, it just seems to help them make the connection
Didi - what did you see as the differences Peg
Mary/PA - Doug, I don't know anything about my 3rd graders. I don't test them, I just record if they have had to have any further intervention
Doug - tyylee- yes the guidebook says that TTA should carry many meanings towards the end of the program
Peg - I guess the differences had to do with the chunks, the parts versus letter sounds and sequence
tyylee - I sometimes remind them that we have seen that the same part in one word can also be used in another words and ask them if anything looks familiar or if they know another word with that part.
Didi - What are some of the things you do when taking words apart in reading
Mary/PA - Is "Try something different" an acceptable prompt?
Peg - I haven't seen or heard it, but I have a long way to go on my accurate and efficient use of prompts
Mary/PA - Didi, I started writing the word in question on a sentence strip and then cutting it into its parts. The kids seemed to see the connection to the Mag. Letter work after that
tyylee - We just tested all our second graders with the OS text level and found that the upper levels were not very accurate. They say that level 30-32-34 is fifth/sixth grade but I find that children can pass just by reading enough words and not really understand or do any processing.
elaine - Could you give an example of when you would use the prompt "Try something different."?
Peg - How long have you all been RR teachers? You sound fairly experienced. :-)
Mary/PA - tyylee, that OS test stories are so bad for this age level. I don't know that they'd have much understanding for the stories if we read them to the kids. I hate those stories and wish that we could use something more appropriate
tyylee - It was suggested that when a child is having trouble seeing the parts in a word to make the word with magnetic letters and let them manipulate the letters and pull apart the chunks. Also helps relate to M&B
Peg - using a white board works too
Didi - What OS test stories are you talking about our book levels stop at about 26 and we have very few of those
Mary/PA - Peg, close to the end of the program, if a child has tried something, and tried it again, but with no luck. If I know that he is able to do something else, but just needs a little push to think harder.
tyylee - The ones on the xerox papers for levels 28-32.
Peg - I think on page 51 of the guidebook there is a scale of least help listed. MLS is pretty low on the list (I think)
Didi - Peg this is only my second year with a disrupted training year as our first tutor left part way through
Mary/PA - Peg, how do you show the parts or chunks of a word with a white board?
Peg - i just write them. "you know this part /it/" then you know /itch/ , etc.
Doug - Peg- are you talking about crash/cumulative analysis?
Peg - no, not cumulative analysis, just writing the chunks for the child
Mary/PA - tyylee, yes, those copied texts are so bad
Didi - Thanks Peg I hadn't taken much note of P51 before looks good
tyylee - Mary, do you know if the new updated leveling guide is out yet?
Peg - I dream the guide book this year -- training year, ya know how it goes! :-)
Doug - Mary- ask your TL if you can use a social studies textbook or other content area text
Mary/PA - tyylee, I have heard about nothing being updated
tyylee - We were told that they would have a new leveling guidebook available this spring but I haven't heard anything more.
Mary/PA - Doug, that would not help with the research ... if we all use something different for testing
Peg - question for you all -- do you plan your M&B based on your new book, yesterday's lesson and teaching pt., or a completely unconnected concept the child will need to know?
janice - what levels are your children testing out at the end of the year
Doug - Peg- I like to follow the writing from the day beforehand
Mary/PA - Peg, we were trained to not plan M&B on the new book, but rather something that was needed the day before or something totally unrelated
janice - i don't usually plan mine based on new book
janice - I usually take it from rr book, writing or something new
Peg - I've done that . . . I've also tried to connect to a concept the child will need for the new book . . .
Didi - I often look at what they need in reading ie focus on ending or middle letters
tyylee - OOOOh, I got in trouble one time when the higher up from our state training site was visiting because I had planned my M&B from the new book. That is a no, no (at least according to them) You should look at past running records and see what parts of words that children are not processing, ie middles, endings, etc. and plan that way.
Doug - janice- do you think that that may be preteaching words?
Peg - I have wavered back and forth so many times this year on this
janice - what - the something new
janice - using rr or writing is not preteaching words
Mary/PA - The new Book is addressed in the Book Orientation, but not during any of the other parts of the lesson
janice - sometimes when you have nothing else to work with i will work with something new - but it has to have been something he has seen or read in print
Peg - I can see why I shouldn't plan M & B based on new book, but since the new book is usually chosen in part because of the needs and strengths from today's running record book, there is a connection
Didi - I have become aware of linking the language from M&B with reading ie we made a word like ....
janice - we were also told not to preteach to the new book
tyylee - My excuse for my error is that it was early in my training year and I didn't know any better.
Didi - My starting point in M&B is a known word from their writing list
Peg - I don't think I'm teaching "words" but rather concepts. At least that's what I've told myself :-)
Mary/PA - Didi, that is exactly where your starting point should be. M&B always starts with a known
Doug - I think the theory is that children integrate reading cues on the run and while reading continuous text. This keeps the wholeness or sense of story while reading
Didi - What are some of your prompts for children at about level 6 to using visual information?
Peg - and that is where I begin -- with a known--, but I have to admit I have often had the new book in mind too
Doug - Didi- taking Mary's idea further, the known word should be the first point on the M/B
elaine - This is somewhat off the subject of "prompts" but as long as we're talking about M&B, is there a comprehensive list of principles that we should consider as we plan our M&B sessions?
tyylee - We were given a list of M&B principals in our training class.
Peg - Our TL has said over and over that M&B is about principles not about words. This has helped my thinking and planning a lot
Doug - didi- searching: try that again and see if it looks right.
Mary/PA - A while back I had something happen during the rr book that had never happened before. The child was stuck on a word. He jumped off his chair and said "I need to break that word" and went to the board and mag letters. I just sat there and let him do it. I didn't say a word.
Mary/PA - Later I told him that from now on he should break it in his brain
Peg - that must have been awesome for you to watch!
Doug - didi- there are prompts for self-monitoring. Cover and check. Crosschecking....it could be______but look at the first letter
tyylee - I need to get back to my bubbling. Catch you next time.
Peg - maybe not efficient but powerful for you to see he had made the connection
Mary/PA - bye, tyylee, thanks for coming
janice - i really am curious about your eoy level
Didi - What is Bubbling?
Doug - didi- all four of the major strategies can hone in on V or S or M.
Peg - sorry is sidetracked off the prompt discussion to M&B, but any info I can get this year, I cherish!
Doug - didi- the joy of scantron mania:)
Mary/PA - Didi, we have scan forms to fill out about all kinds of things - its for the ongoing research
Didi - Janice ours went out at about level 22 last year but we are not even 1/2 way through yet/Australia -december is our end of year
Doug - Peg- remember that the M/B is just a 2 minute lesson and it is just to show relationships. Personally, I think M&B is given way too much importance
Mary/PA - I just found out that my TL is stepping down. She will be teaching RR at her local school, but will no longer be a TL
Didi - We had horrific forms to fill out at the end of year too
Mary/PA - We are in need of someone to step in. I don't know what will happen for next year
Peg - Doug, you're right. But I have to admit it is (or can be)a powerful two minutes powerful
Doug - mary- we had to contract our TL this year from another district.
Mary/PA - Doug, have you ever thought about becoming a TL?
Doug - I love also being a classroom teacher,,,,what would I do with all of those books?LOL
Mary/PA - Our district doesn't have a TL. No district around here has their own. We work as a region, and it's a very big region! Our TLs have to travel many miles.
Doug - mary get Ohio state to okay teleconferencing. then get Gay Sue Pinell
Mary/PA - Doug, That's a great idea! I wish they'd allow it. I've been trained in VideoConferencing, it's a great tool
Doug - Mary- can we chat about OS. I was working with a child of a colleague and we were stumped and had to look back at the language of the OS.
Doug - I think teaching strategies that connect to OS is something to talk about
Mary/PA - Sure, the OS is something that we have never discussed. I hope that you remember what it was that stumped you
Mary/PA - Which part, Doug?
Doug - Mary- the child had lots of 1:1 issues and he was approaching 20 weeks
Peg - I know I would appreciate a discussion regarding using the OS more effectively, efficiently for the students. Getting the most out of it for our kids
Peg - I have a lot of info because of each OS, but I'm not sure I'm using that info in the best ways I can to help each child progress
Mary/PA - Doug that is interesting and strange at the same time
Doug - we videoed the child and sent it to Ohio
Mary/PA - Peg, we should be referring to the OS more during the child's program. That will be a good topic for next time.
Mary/PA - Thanks for the suggestion, Peg and Doug
Peg - Yes, it will. Thank you for the chat tonight. I'll be looking forward to the next time! Goodnight.
Mary/PA - Well, I must be going. Thanks for coming and I hope to see you next time.
Mary/PA - Goodnight
Doug - thank you Mary and take my advice write to http://www.readingrecovery.org and get a response on the teleconferencing idea for continuing contact
