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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net.
Mary/PA - Tonight's topic is " The Observation Survey" and "Language Learning And Processing."
Mary/PA - I recently purchased the video, "An Observation Survey." I found a few very interesting items when watching it.
Mary/PA - This video appears to have Marie Clay's blessing, she wrote the Introduction of the little book that accompanies the video. This book has copies of the two O S's in the video and some discussion of each.
tyylee - Is that the video they show to training classes?
Mary/PA - No, I've never seen it before. - These appear to have been created in 2000, so they are not that old.
Mary/PA - One interesting item; while giving the LID and the WT, the teachers point to each item for the child. We were not trained to do it this way, and I'm wondering why. I do plan on doing it from now on.
tyylee - Where did you find it? On the RRCNA site or somewhere else?
leftcoast - We have a new book for Concepts about Print, besides Sand and Stones. I like it.
Mary/PA - I got it from Heinemann
Mary/PA - Yes, leftcoast, I got those as well
Lady Di - How can someone obtain a copy of the Observation video
Mary/PA - Do you folks point to each letter and each word?
leftcoast - No, I have the kids point, though.
Mary/PA - I wonder why we are trained so differently
akaivyleaf - I point to each word
tyylee - I will point if the child seems to need it. If they are pointing themselves I let them. For second round children I usually don't point, though.
drew - Yes Tyylee that is what I have been told by TL
tyylee - I do record whether I am pointing or the child is doing the task themselves. It shows you a lot about their knowledge.
Immachillin - I know nothing about Reading Recovery.....what is the theory behind the pointing?
Mary/PA - The teachers in this video didn't seem to wait to see if the child was going to point, they just started right off pointing
Melissa - ahh videos....that is why i came here....does anyone know of any videos that I can watch that teach how to adminster running records
Mary/PA - If the teacher points, the chances are better that the child is looking at each item
Lady Di - Mary, how do I get a copy of the video?
Mary/PA - I got mine at Heinemann
tyylee - For the very low first round children, most of them need to have the teacher pointing and directing their attention to specific letters or words.
Lady Di - Is Heinemann on the internet?
akaivyleaf - Also if the teacher or child is pointing, we are sure of the direction they are reading the words. Helpful with dyslexics
drew - Again right Tyylee, you are following what TL told me and what I have read
Mary/PA - Yes it is, let me get the address
Mary/PA - http://www.heinemann.com/
Melissa - Do you know of any sites that would help me in learning how to do running records?
Mary/PA - Another interesting item; You probably remember the discussion about administering the Writing Vocabulary. A couple of years ago we were told to not give it like a spelling test, to just suggest categories of words.
Immachillin - Are there Reading Recovery workshops?
Lady Di - Thank you. I have another question, would this work with non-verbal students
drew - I am a title one reading specialist, who maybe crashed coursed in RR in 6 months rather than a year, to help my school
Mary/PA - The teachers in the video do suggest categories, but when the child runs out of attempts the teachers do prompt for individual words, by saying "Can you write 'to'? pause 'in'? "Can you write 'I'?" What about 'it'? Can you write 'is'?" What about 'dog'? Can you think of any other words you can write? Can you write 'on'? Can you write 'look'? etc. Going through the list of words on page 59 of the OS.
tyylee - Do you have the Clay book' The Observation Survey' , it explains Running Records pretty clearly and then you just need lots of practice.
akaivyleaf - I have heard of Reading Recovery Workshops but haven't attended any in my area.
leftcoast - The OSss book says prompt the child as much as you like with words he might be able to write. Be careful not to interrfere with hhis thinking and his searching of his own repetoire. (Word Write)
Mary/PA - I wonder why we were told not to do this? Tyylee, were you ever told to not prompt for individual words?
leftcoast - sorry, my typing is as bad as my speech
Mary/PA - Yes, leftcoast, it does....this is why I get confused about things....why are we so often told to do things differently?
Mary/PA - One more aspect of the OS that I have always wondered about. In the video the Test Reading was administered first. For some odd reason, we were trained to give it last. All indications from the OS book and the OS Summary seems to suggest that Text Reading be done first. I will be doing it first from now on.
tyylee - We were told that we could prompt for individual words after the child has come to a complete stop, all catagories have been used and there is still time left, but to keep notes on which words were prompted and which were self generated or generated after a catagory prompt. I have found that some children are just not self starters but can write lots of words!
leftcoast - Maybe because the more capable students don't need as much prompting?
Mary/PA - I need to just stop listening to what we are told and just go by the book....I've said it before, but often get pulled in the wrong direction
di(aus) - We have always been able to prompt for words in the OS there is a list of starters in the red book for this.
tyylee - I wonder if they are doing the text reading first as a sort of screening to see if the child needs to be given the whole OS. I usually give the text level first for the second round children but not the first rounders.
Mary/PA - Yes, di, we were doing it that way, but a couple of years ago we were told not to do it that way, but I'm going back to what the OS tells us to do
Mary/PA - Of course for the text reading, they don't have to use "Where's Spot" and the Scott Foresmann texts
Mary/PA - I don't know if that makes a difference
Mary/PA - They meaning those who aren't in the States
di(aus) - I am just about to test for my second round and my new tutuor who trained with Marie Caly said to do text first so that time is not taken with chilren who get to a high text level in comparison with the other children
Mary/PA - I like the idea of doing TR first
tyylee - I really think the prompting is ok as long as we keep good notes on what we have done. I always try to get my first rounders to write "I" and "a" and their names so we have some words to start with!!
leftcoast - I do the tasks first, then the books, because the tasks give you a pretty good idea of where to start, and that is how we were taught, but we were screening a whole grade, not just reading recovery candidates.
Lady Di - Mary, Is there some reading program out there for non-verbal students
Mary/PA - Lady Di, I don't know....non-verbal, I've not run into that
tyylee - Mary, did the video get into the analysis of the OS after it was given. What observations did they make?
Mary/PA - I've have children who have trouble with Language learning and processing, but not totally no-verbal
Mary/PA - tyylee, just a little, nothing new
Mary/PA - I think that how we administer it is very important and it can change the outcomes
di(aus) - So do you do the OS on all the children in the year level Mary.
Mary/PA - di, no, just the lowest children
Mary/PA - There's 60 to 70 children and just one me...I don't have enough time to test them all
Mary/PA - I also bought another Marie Clay and others book; "Record of Oral Language and Biks and Gutches" This book tells about the importance of oral language and offers a procedure for measuring a child's language through the use of sentence repetition and the child supplying a word at critical points as the teacher pauses.
tyylee - When giving the text level and the child is following the patterns in the early books correctly but is doing 1 to 1 match correctly do you count it as correct and go on to the next level?
di(aus) - We have about 100 in our level but i just get the names of the 3 children the teacher of each class is concerned about to test . I'm the only one too.
tyylee - I mean isn't 1 to 1 matching
Mary/PA - We have been told that we give the first three levels no matter what
Sadie - Did anyone go to Vancouver for the International RR conference?
leftcoast - I think that as long as one person is administering the survey to all the candidates, then if they are not doing it in a standardized way to how others do it, at least all the ones for one school are getting reliable testing. sorry, I'm too stoned to type well.
Mary/PA - I didn't, Sadie
Sadie - Yes, Mary. That is what we have been told too.
Pat - I was in Vancouver.
tyylee - Really? We stop as soon as they have two hards in a row even if that is Spot and the next one. How do you score the ones where they follow the pattern but don't 1 to 1?
di(aus) - I agree leftcoast
Sadie - Was it wonderful, Pat?
Mary/PA - The % would be what it is, but we can comment on the one to one
leftcoast - I have been over to Vancouver several times this summer, but couldn't afford the conferrence
Sadie - tylee... they may be following the pattern and not attending to the print because the book is too easy. If you go up a level or 2 you may find that the child actually DOES have 1-1
Pat - Yes it was great, I'm annoyed that they didn't get enough info out to people before hand.
Mary/PA - Did the conference turn any new lights on?
Sadie - What do you mean, Pat?
Sadie - I attended the Nat'l conference in Ohio for the first time in Feb. It was so great!
tyylee - That would give them a high % and perhaps place them in too high a level for actual reading and require you to start at a lower level. It also could influence the stanines that you are looking at when deciding who to serve. I have always had a problem knowing what to do about that.
Pat - It was good that it had things at many different levels, from David Wood on how children learn to everyday things with teachers.I haven't had time to review my notes yet.
Mary/PA - tyylee, that's one of the problems with testing the TR the way we do here in the States
tyylee - Yes, the books we use are usually harder than the leveled books that we use to teach.
Mary/PA - But i just do it the way I've been told, give the first 3 levels and then go on or not according to what the child does
di(aus) - don't you have to have three consecutive levels easy, instructional, then hard in your OS.
Mary/PA - di, we don't do it that way, we have a set of texts that we must use, we can't use any others
di(aus) - We select from our level boxes for testing.
Pat - I meant that there was an excellent administrators strand moderated by Billie Askew, not many people seemed to know much about it before hand, and also the final timetable wasn't available until we got there. For the one in Ohio in Feb. it was out in advance so people could plan ahead.
leftcoast - we (Canada) use our same books as we teach from
tyylee - di, wish we could do that but alas we are required to use the 'testing booklets'.
Mary/PA - I wish that we could do it that way as well
di(aus) - I try to select PM's but it's hard as the classrooms are using them now so at present PM='s are good for me
di(aus) - sorry the PM series but they may be more culturally appropriate to us.
di(aus) - Try again PM series
Mary/PA - I use them for lessons, we seem to like them very much...the kids and the teachers as well
leftcoast - On the hearing and recording words test in the OS, I have a problem with how they would score "very", doesn't local accent affect how a child would record the sound?
di(aus) - the plus sign wont come up it is the PM plus series.
Mary/PA - leftcoast, I have the same concern
tyylee - Di, we like the PM books too. But don't you think they are easier than those that require the children to use more picture and context clues
Mary/PA - to us, vary and very sound the same
Pat - Actually I don't think it matters much that the classrooms are using PM's, the kids we get usually haven't focused on much in the classroom. Our classrooms use PM s and I still use them in the OS.
Mary/PA - if a child writes vare or varee, I'd like to be able to score it correctly, but the OS says that we can not
di(aus) - At levels 3 to 5 I like the varied texts so that the don't just parrot of a pattern
di(aus) - They are good for building a sight vocab and build confidence. At llevels 14 and above they are quite challenging.
Mary/PA - About "Record of Oral Language and Biks and Gutches" I have yet to study it in greater detail. So far I have found it quite interesting and am wondering if there is a way to use it in a child's program when his/her language skills seems to be holding him/her back.
Pat - I rarely (never) get anyone reading at a level three at the beginning, so the PMs are great.
Mary/PA - How can we help the children who have language problems?
di(aus) - Isn't there some leeway in OS for different accents
tyylee - Back to the OS. Do you ever ask a child about a specific letter a second time, perhaps after you have completed all the letters. Especially at the end of the program they sometimes get in a hurry and miss letters that you know they know.
di(aus) - I agree PAt but I am about to start testing today for my round 2 kids who will be at about level 4 I hope
leftcoast - Mary, my main concern! How do we help children with language processing difficulties? My TL doesn't think they have processing difficulties, even when the speech and Language Pathologists are right there!
Mary/PA - tyylee, I haven't seen it written to do that
Pat - I think the very structure of the lesson is a great help for children with language problems. It's the conversation aspect of it. That's hard to learn, it has to be a conversation, not lecture.
di(aus) - Yes Tylee I have as often it is just hurrying but I may check a whole line or severl letters
Mary/PA - Maybe that's why it would be best for the teacher to do the pointing...the teacher sets the pace and the child won't rush through any letters
leftcoast - I admit to doing it. I'm sorry, I didn't write down what you said for this one?
di(aus) - How many weeks do most of yours stay on pragram and what level do you aim for
tyylee - We are told to continue to show the child what we want them to do until they can do it independently with a prompt. The low language learners may need lots of repititions of showing and explaining before they understand what we are asking them to do.
Mary/PA - 15 to 20 weeks, we aim for level 12-13 for first round and 16-18 for second
Pat - In Canada the lowest we can let them go at is 16 early 18 later in the year, but we have to look at processing carefully as it's not really about levels.
tyylee - Are there any web sites with sample OS summaries completed that one can use for reference?
di(aus) - My two on their final week or two areW22 l15 and 16 but we are told 16 is the minimum level so I have a bit of work to do with my 15 one
di(aus) - Pat that sounds like what we are told
leftcoast - As a beginning RR teacher last year, I kept one of my first rounders to 16, and then was told I could have let her go at 14 because it was so early. (Canada)
Mary/PA - I've not seen any, tyylee, I think this would be a great reference, but I don't know if it would be permitted, there seems to be so many concerns about copyrights
Pat - The site from California has lots of examples of things completed. Is it called amihome? I haven't checked it in a while.
tyylee - They gave us an example in training and it was helpful to use to jump start our thinking about our specific children.I wish I could see some others writen by other people.
di(aus) - We are told they should be at the same level as the middle reading group in their classs at least.
Pat - di, the difficulty with that is if the middle group is not rally that high.
Mary/PA - di, that's what we've been told here as well, it's "new" to us to think this way as before we were too concerned about the levels
tyylee - Did the summary that came with your video offer any new ideas or insites?
Mary/PA - Last year we were instructed to find the middle or average of each classroom and use it as a guide
leftcoast - I'm looking forward to starting in September, because I taught kindergarten half time last year, and all of ours could one-to-one- match. left to rgiht track, and most could do well at level 2 books from Scholastic
Mary/PA - leftcoast, were the other kindergarten teachers trained in RR as well?
Pat - Which video were you talking about. The one from New Zealand with the teacher from Bermuda is very good.
leftcoast - No, Mary, the other K teacher only teaches K for the half time I teach RR., but we work well together for planning and materials. We share the same classroom for K
tyylee - Left, ours as well but we find that most of our first round children are new to our school. It was something like 90% of the first round RR children were new. Gets kind of discouraging since many of our RR children will move again before second grade.
Mary/PA - tyylee, there were no OS summaries just copies of the records with a few very general observations, I wish they would have included the summaries, I think it would have pulled the whole thing together better
tyylee - I was just reading Roaming notes that said that if you were not the person who had given the initial OS that you might want to give it again at the end of Roaming. Anyone do that?
Pat - tyylee, have you been doing Reading Recovery long? do you think it would be beneficial to revisit OS's after training year?
Mary/PA - tyylee, I didn't, but maybe I should have
di(aus) - Must off and get onto some TR for my OS see you in a month i have a meeting next time your on. It was good to catch up with you all again
Mary/PA - Pat, you didn't ask me, but YES!! I'm going into my 9th year, and I sure would like to revisit the OS!
tyylee - Pat, I am always open to new ideas and understandings. I find that the longer I do RR the more I comprehend and that my ideas change over time. I learn a lot from networking with these other RR teachers.
Mary/PA - We'll be looking for you, di
Mary/PA - Thanks for coming today
Mary/PA - What so we want to have as a topic next time?
tyylee - Mary, is there any way we could post a completed OS and then have a discussion about it? It would be nice to have comments from other people.
leftcoast - I find lots of neat info and sharing no matter what the topic.
Pat - Sorry Mary, I was just wondering because Tyylee was asking, it's the precidictions of progress I was finding brutal, but I went to a session in Ohio that really helped with this, so I was wondering if revisiting the OS would help also.
Mary/PA - tyylee, I'm afraid of copyrights, I think that if Marie was in agreement with doing something like that, it would have been done already
leftcoast - I would like more help writing the summaries,
Mary/PA - Pat, can you be here next time? Predictions of Progress is really misunderstood here
tyylee - There was a good posting on the listserve about Getting off to a powerful start by Maryanne McBride. It was very useful.
Mary/PA - I'd love to hear about what you discovered
leftcoast - love to hear any good ideas picked up at the conference.
Mary/PA - leftcoast, I too would like more help with the summaries
Pat - Yes , I'll dig it out. When is the next session?
Mary/PA - August 27th
Mary/PA - same time, same place
leftcoast - Thanks, Mary and friends, I'm going back to bed to sleep off this dental work. Hope to see you next time. I didn't realize it was still here for the summer.
Mary/PA - See you next time, leftcoast
Pat - OK, I should be in a going back to school mode by then.
Mary/PA - take care of that mouth
Mary/PA - Pat, that would be great! Thank you so much
tyylee - I am still trying to decide how we could discuss the summaries in a useful way. Any ideas?
Mary/PA - Predictions of Progess for the next topic
Pat - We could probably tie in summaries with that too because that's where predictions begin.
Mary/PA - Pat, that would be great
Pat - What is the listserve? Is it the one in egroups?
Mary/PA - I can post copies, but I don't want to get in hot water for doing it
Mary/PA - Pat, yes
Pat - Ok; I'll watch for it there. See you next time.
Mary/PA - tyylee, where could we get copies that are good examples?
tyylee - It would be great to post a completed test and get other peoples ideas about what they observe. I guess we could do it via email between a few people if posting it isn't ok.
Mary/PA - Or could we post OS test item results and write our own summaries in the discussion?
tyylee - I think any completed test that has lots of notes taken would be good for a discussion. I also would like to discuss things to look for when giving the OS. I sometimes think I miss significant things.
Mary/PA - I think that if we just post the info, but not the forms we should be OK, don't you?
Mary/PA - Things other that what are listed in the OS book?
tyylee - Mary, it would probably be ok to post results (not the actual test) and then discuss them.
Mary/PA - OK, I'll work on it...do you have any test results that you would like to share?
tyylee - I guess I need to reread the OS book again in the next week before school starts. I need to refresh my mind about what to look for when giving it.
Mary/PA - Or should I just pull one of mine?
tyylee - I have not started school yet, will be at least a week or more before I have any new test results. I do not have any at home and won't be back to school to work before Friday. Just pull one of yours.
Mary/PA - OK, I'll do that, we don't start until the 28th, but I can use some from last year
tyylee - I will send you my email in case you want to contact me.
Mary/PA - That would work, or do we want to wait until the first meeting in Sept. to do this?
Mary/PA - That would be a good idea, do you have mine?
Mary/PA - I got it
tyylee - No, Send me yours. I had it once but not anymore.
Mary/PA - mine is mary@teachers.net
