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Mary K&1 - Welcome to Teachers.Net's Monthly Reading Recovery Meeting. Tonight we will be discussing our selection processes.
Mary K&1 - What all do you take into consideration when selecting your first round students?
Mary K&1 - Last year we were given a new form to use for selection. It involves a matrix based upon the Dictation and CAP scores. I don't know the history of it or where the numbers come from that are on it. Has anyone seen anything like this? I'd like to know a bit more about it.
darthy/RR/AL - Good evening, I'm most interested in your ideas about Obs. Survey
Kate - We look at all of the scores. But we pay particular attention to a very low LID, CAP & Dictation score. I have noticed that the importance of some of the testing components change over time during the first grade year. Later on Dictation becomes the most significant to me.
darthy/RR/AL - Last month, Mary K, you mentioned the new form - I'm not familiar with it, please tell more
Mary K&1 - darthy, what do your mean ideas about the OS?
Lisa - Our teachers rank their students and then we test the bottom third (Observation Survey). The students are selected based on their scores. We work with those who score the lowest on the O.S.
Ann - Mary K&1 your form sounds interesting. I'd like to know more
Mary K&1 - darthy, I did, below - that's pretty much all I know about it - if you haven't seen it, I can't put it here for you to see. It's a matrix
darthy/RR/AL - We test the lowest 20% of first, then decide from the needs shown on the O.S
LeAnn/MO - We had a form where you listed all the tests from the OS. Is this the form you are talking about?
darthy/RR/AL - Mary K, did your teacher leader give you the matrix???
sid - What about children who you believe may be LS are they identified in any way?
Mary K&1 - Dictation scores go down the right side and CAP is across the top, then there are numbers assigned - you take a child's scores and where they meet is the selection number and then you rank the kids according to those numbers
Shannon - I hate to ask a stupid question but what are you watching for in the Observation Survey?
Mary K&1 - Yes our TL gave it to us
Peg - The form sounds interesting.
Mary K&1 - We test the lowest 30% of students and then select from these children for the program
Kate - Mary K & 1- It sounds like the other scores are disregarded using this matrix, ?
andrea - On your matrix, did you rank each score and then see who had the lowest score. This worked for us when trying to select students.
Lisa - Shannon, no questions are stupid questions.
darthy/RR/AL - Mary, after you complete the form that shows test scores from OS, and you prepare your ranked list, then do you consider the students past attendance and if so, what is your cut off date EX: we don't take students who missed more that 20 days in K
Mary K&1 - LeAnn, it's not that form, we have that one also
Mary K&1 - Kate, yes it appears that the other scores aren't considered. I just used it as just one more way to look at the kids, not the only measure
darthy/RR/AL - How much weight do you put on the stanine numbers????
Mary K&1 - Shannon, by giving the OS, we are looking for what the child knows and what he/she can do
Lisa - We are told not to take attendance into account, because these students need help with their reading, too. Why penalize them? However, I have a student now who averages 2 or 3 days a week at school. :(
Mary K&1 - Along with the OS we make notations about things they we observed
Peg - we were also told not to take attendance into account.
andrea - Does anyone have any selection guidelines for ESL students. We are struggling with these students as we don't have anyone qualified to teach the Spanish version of RR
sid - We were told not to use stanine
Kate - Mary K&1, Well I feel a bit of relief concerning the matrix. I just have to feel that Clay considered all components of OS as being important , perhaps not all of equal weight , but I feel that we need to look at the whole enchilada when making this important decision!
darthy/RR/AL - Lisa, in our program, the parents would be called in 0 considered a verbal warning and possibly dropped if attendance didn't improve
Lisa - I list the stanine numbers, but don't use the information for anything.
Mary K&1 - darthy, we are supposed to take attendance under consideration, but I haven't, I give them a chance and have a good talk with the parent, attendance usually improves
Kate - I have been told that Stanines are more useful at the end of a program to determine if a student made significant gains. All of our kids make gains, but the numbers can be sometimes deceptive. The consideration of stanines is good clue.
Shannon - Kate , what is the name of the book that Clay wrote?
Peg - Andrea, sorry I don't know about the ESL students.
darthy/RR/AL - AND what guidelines do you use with your Letter I D scores to know when to begin making individual letter books?
Mary K&1 - We look at the kindergarten program from which the child comes. The things that are stressed in kindergarten should be the places where the child scores the highest. If he/she hasn't, that's a red flag
Kate - Letter ID books are practical for all kids, are they not?
Mary K&1 - darthy, do you mean alphabet books?
Kate - Mary K, I agree with your statement about red flags. I have taught RR in 3 different districts. OS scores looked different in all places.
darthy/RR/AL - If your student knows less that 20 ABC.s do you make the ABC letter books for them? If he knows 20 and more, you don't make the letter books????? What do you say????
andrea - Darthy, I make a parent contact mandatory and make the parents understand how important it is that their child has this once in a lifetime shot!! I lay it on pretty thick. It has really made a difference in my attendance. I think keeping parents informed really helps.
Dee - Because our Kndg. teachers really focus on letter knowledge - we take a good look at that - letter I.D. This gives us an idea on a kind of learning rate as so much focus was on this throughout the year
Mary K&1 - What does it say in the GB - 10 letters before you start the alphabet book?
Lisa - The Guidebook says 10 letters.
darthy/RR/AL - Good for you andrea - I've also done that
robin - We make abc books for all. They all need to be fast and fluent with letters. It also helps as e reference for visual cues.
LeAnn/MO - Explain about the alpha. books, that was never clear to me last year.
Val - Does anyone take the lowest scoring children and put them in a twelve week lit group before RR?
Peg - We make abc books for all first round students.
Cat - Our reading recovery teacher went to another school. Now I get the low students in my first grade readiness class. Do you think this will be a chat meeting for me?
andrea - darthy, I think that the letter book becomes a sound book also and can be very useful later in a child's program. Making a book gives them the opportunity to review and is a great activity for roaming, don't you think?
sid - Val, never heard of that?!
Kate - Val, don't we wish!!!!! We were told that's a big no-no!
darthy/RR/AL - But if a students knows more than 20 letters you don't need to make the letter books RIGHT!!!!! I'm asking everyone
Monica - Andrea, I'm an ESL teacher who has just finished my week of initial RR training. How much English does your student have? While protocol dictates we take the lowest children, the need of a beginning speaker of English to learn basic survival skills may temporarily superceed their ability to absorb our literacy skills.
Lisa - Actually, it says "when the child knows more than 10 letterswrite these letters only in the alphabet book leaving gaps for letters yet to be learned. I think it really helps.
Mary K&1 - Letter books are what we use to help teach letter sounds
Mary K&1 - Val, we don't have EL groups
LeAnn/MO - How can you use the letter book for new sounds during roaming when you are not to intro anything new?
Kate - Lisa, Thanks for the quote. I stand corrected!
Peg - We don't have EL groups either.
Mary K&1 - Cat, we are discussing the selection process, are you saying that you no longer have an RR teacher in your building?
Peg - The letter books can be kept on table for use during early lessons.
Kate - LeAnn, Could you put the known letters, as evidenced on LID in the Alphabet book?
Lisa - I'm tired, so I'm going to say "good night". Talk to you next month!
Val - They have such a program in CT. was hoping someone had info. I believe they call it Bridges.
andrea - Val, We haven't but we sure have been tempted. It seems like we could fly with next group, but our TL has always frowned greatly on it. Marie would too. She really feels all children should be given a chance. I tend to agree but it can really be a long haul.
Dee - Is it specific at to size? I use a 8 x 10 typing folded long ways and enough of them to have letter on one opened side and picture cue on other side. Child chooses what most represents that letter from a wide selection of stickers, environmental print or simply drawn (her own drawings). Leaving blanks for those unknown letters. Then we bind them. We refer to them constantly!
Val - Andrea all children would get a chance just in different order
Mary K&1 - darthy, letter books are different that the Alphbet book, the alphabet book is what you use to help the child learn the rest of the letters, 20 is far form 52, I'm not following you
LeAnn/MO - I do make the ABC book with the students and any letter they identified on the LID is in the book and we leave blanks for unknowns. We fill in blanks when student notices the gaps. Does that sound right?
darthy/RR/AL - Dee, are you saying that you make a letter book for each RR student? Regardless of their score on LI ????
Kate - Val, this sounds logical to me. Can you get someone to sanction this idea?
Mary K&1 - LeAnn, you don't use the letter books in Roaming for new sounds, only what the child already knows
Kate - LeAnn, That is the way I do it. Then in early lessons you add to the child's book as their repertoire increases.
Val - Kate guess we'll have to try it and keep documentation!
LeAnn/MO - If I don't get it completed during roaming it's hard to do in lessons.
Kate - Val, please come back when you have the documentaion!
Sue - I am RR certified, but in the regular classroom
darthy/RR/AL - Mary K, let me try again - LOL - Do you make the ABC book for every student?
Kate - LeeAnn, It is, but it is som important to get letter sounds under control early on. Reading and writing hinges on this knowledge. I think that you want to work on getting it fluent and flexible.
sid - Sue did you work with children for your year of training?
Dee - Darthy and all, Letter books are not for all. Last year one of my students did not need the letter book , but the three others did and each one used theirs in a different manner - one little girl always had to say the cue word first before she could I.D the letter.
Sue - Sid...I surely did and I taught RR for 3 years before going back into the classroom
Mary K&1 - darthy, I make an alphabet book for students who have many letters to learn. If a student knows 40+ usually don't make one, but that usually happens only for my second rounders
andrea - I have found that many times children learn new things during roaming, I just haven't taught it, they have made these discoveries on their own.
Ann - What is the difference between letter and aphabet books?
Kate - Dee, I think that letter books are for most, though, would you agree?
sid - Sue I wish all primary teachers could take your knowledge back to a classroom.
Val - On this alphabet and letter book stuff I think with have to remember to be careful not to over due the small stuff. Keep to using whole text
Sue - Andrea, that is the beauty of roaming
Mayh - Kate I have found that it is not neccessarily as important as once thought that children know all their sounds and letters in order to read
darthy/RR/AL - THat's what I thought Dee, BUT how do you decide who does not need a letter book?????
Sue - Sid, I agree...the first yr I went back to the classroom I did a classroom model/adaptation of RR
Kate - Boy, do I disagree with you Mayh. I will say that it is not neccesary to kknow th eletter names. Is this what you mean?
Val - They don't need a letter book if they know 40 letters
andrea - Sue- I am also in the classroom this year. I will miss working one-on-one with students. I hope that I can use the many strategies in the classroom.
Sue - I taught language arts to regular classroom in morning, and RR to students in that classroom in the afternoon
Mary K&1 - Ann, a letter book is a little book about one letter with several examples of things that start with that letter's sound. An Alphabet book is a book that we make with the known letters on one pages and the child selects a picture to go with it on the next page - we skip the letters that the child does not know and add them as the child shows awareness of them.
Sue - We had a great discontinueing rate that yr...very rapid
Kate - It is exteremly difficult for a child to problem solve on text if they don't have access to the visual cueing system.
Sue - Andrea, you will love it, and your students will benefit so very much
darthy/RR/AL - Val, do they need a letter book *alphabet* if they know 20 letters????
Val - Kate they need to learn it on text anchor words etc and through writing whole text
Mary K&1 - Doug, what do you look at during selection?
Val - Probably depends on child and knowledge
Peg - Do you use only letters the child needs to learn? (For letter book)
sid - Sue does your school still have the RR program? Are they considering a rotation of teachers trained to moving them back to the classroom?
Mayh - well basically what I am saying is that both phonemic awareness and letter recognition can me acquired in engaging activities and settings and they can be assessed in productive tasks rather than decontextualized activiteis
Doug* - Mary- the children selected for Rr were the same kids I had in Kindergarten
Val - Mayh sre you RR trained?
Mary K&1 - Peg, letter books are used for sounds, to help the child learn to get his mouth ready for eg.
Sue - Sid....we do still have RR...my principal loves to place RR trained teachers in the classroom, but no rotation...only if a teacher desires it and the room is available
Mayh - lets face it we have all had children with low letter ID in roaming who start to readbrb
Mary K&1 - Doug, you don't get kids from another Kinder also?
sid - Doug how many children are you selecting from?
Doug* - I look at the OS, give stanine points and a school committee selects the kids. If I get equal numbers, I like to give emphasis to TR and CAP
Doug* - Mary- there are 8 RR teachers at my school 2 teachers for a 4 track year round school. we are training our ninth this year
Kate - Mayh, I agree, but are they problem-solving on text? Can they integrate the cueing sytems, can they monitor using all 3 cues?
kinderkate - Hi all - I just got here and will just try to catch up and read archives later.
Doug* - bottom 20th from a rank ordering
Mary K&1 - kinderkate, what do you look at when selecting your first rounders?
Doug* - Kate- that is what searching is perhaps...checking on a word against ms and v
Peg - This is off topic, but do any of you participate in classroom activities in some way or read to the class the first week of school?
Kate - Mayh, I'm not suggesting that you have to know letters and sounds to begin to read, but a hkid needs to have a working knowledge of the alphabetic principal to be have a self-extending system.
Sadie - Peg, no. I wish we had time for that... but we have a short year and we need to get started right away!
Kate - Doug, yes searching is a part of it.
Sadie - Doug, hello! Are you into lessons yet?
Peg - I didn't last year, but I thought maybe I'd go in and read a story.
Mary K&1 - Do any of you pass over a low scoring child if the team feels strongly that this child is in need of a long term program?
MKM - Does anybody have 8 RR kids? Is it overwhelming?
Val - it is really helpful to get to know the kids in class environment
sid - When selecting first round, do you look for any signs of possible learning problems before taking those children?
andrea - Peg, Be careful of your time. If you want to spend time in the classroom, great!! But remember how much time you will be spending writing those in-depth, detailed OBS. It is important that you are well prepared and that you start testing as soon as possible.
Val - mary yes
Doug* - Can I ask a question? I have a little one, just out of roaming and does not have self-monitoring under control. Very poor 1:1 points twice at 2 syllable words. I used the guidebook to show 1:1 and use a lot of the "helping hand" Any other ideas that I'm missing?
kinderkate - (Remember this is just my 2nd year) I worked with 2 teachers last year. They each did alternate ranking. I tested - OS - the bottom 4 from each class. I put all scores on sheet and circled bottom 4 on each test. Then looked at that to decide who were bottom four.
Val - sid that wouldn't be fair hard to document
darthy/RR/AL - We may pass over a child if attendance was over 20 days and excessive tardies, to see how they are going to do this year, then check them on 2nd wave
Mayh - NO WAY Mary that is what Reading Recovery is for.....to offer the child an early intervention program before they have to go to a long term program
Mary K&1 - sid, that's what I'm wondering also
Doug* - Mary- I forgot to mention that we now choose an extra kid to use when a child is absent. We no longer double up on lessons :)
Peg - We discuss the possibility that a child may really need long term assistance and may put off that child until 2nd round. Then have the team test him/her .
darthy/RR/AL - Doug, did you say that you were clapping out your syllable cards???
Sadie - mary, we don't pass over the kids... but we will take a child who is limited english as a 2nd rounder so that they have the opportunity to pick up more english in the classroom first
Mary K&1 - Doug, have you made a cut-up frm a book passage for him to point to and read?
Doug* - darthy- sometimes before the story but not with syllable cards
Sadie - Doug, what do you mean an 'extra" kid?
Val - doug try a pointing device to help the child focus
Mayh - have him mask the words doug using a window pointer
Mary K&1 - Mayh, is your school fully implemented?
Doug* - sadie- instead of just 4 we now have an extra kid.
sharon - There's a permission slip on the Calif. RR site that deals with attendance that we use. It cautions the parents that if their child has unexcused absences they will be withdrawn from RR to give someone else a chance.
Ann - Please explain the cut-up from a book passage, thanks
darthy/RR/AL - Doug, get an old coloring book, or old phonics workbook and make you a set of syllable cards
Doug* - Mary- I also exaggerate the cut up words to show large word boundaries. I suspect text memry is at play
Mayh - that extra student idea is an interesting concept I never heard of doing that.
darthy/RR/AL - Very good, Sharon, we use something very similiar
sharon - Sadie, I heard Lee Skandalaris call taking an extra child and working with them when 1 of your students is absent "taking the 5th"...catchy and efficient!
Mayh - so does that extra child automatically get pulled in as the first second rounder?
Sadie - so sharon.... you mean a waiting list child?
sharon - That's my understanding...yes
Val - Doug wouldn't that extra child screw up your scores
Mary K&1 - Ann, if a child isn't getting 1:1, take a sentence from a book where he didn't use 1:1 and put it on a sentence strip, and cut it between the words and put lots of space between the words and see if he can show 1:1 then, or show him how
sid - is the extra child one that needs a little push to grasp the self extending system?
Val - Oh I see you wouldn't keep track of that child officially until in the program?
sharon - Right..you work with them informally until there is a slot
sid - Is there a place where others have shared some roaming lessons?
darthy/RR/AL - sid, do you need book ideas, rak pattersn, or text pattersn???
MKM - We have 2 full-time RR teachers, and I'm training to become a third one. Any suggestions on how many students is feasible for us to take?
sharon - Good ideas about exaggerated spacing for 1:1 BUT that's still working on words/text which is under ADVANCED learning in GB. You may need to start with EARLY learning from page 21 with objects and then move into intermediate steps .
Val - darthy children do get instruction outside of the program
darthy/RR/AL - MKM - Take 4 each and do a dang good job on 60 lessons
Peg - MKM- During your traing year, you shouldn't take more than 4.
MKM - I won't take more than 4 students, but the others are getting pressure to take 7 or 8. any idea what the guidelines are? Does anyone here have more than 4 RR students?
Mary K&1 - Pure program, keeping to 30 min. and teaching points - that's what we'll discuss next time
sharon - I found this quote that I'm sharing with the training class that I think links well to RATK.."In every task the most important thing is the beginning...especially when you deal with anything young and tender." Plato, The Republic
sid - Only 4 students in half day program. 7 in a full day.
Peg - Our teacher leader said , no more than 6. I have heard of someone teaching 8.
Val - I think it would be hard to do a great job on more than 5
Mary K&1 - MKM, it depends upon what you are assigned to do the other half of your day - I teach Kindergarten in the AM, there's no way I can do more than 4 RR students
darthy/RR/AL - MKM - just stick with 4 for about 4 yrs. than try more
Mary K&1 - You can take more if your schedule allows for it, you just can't take fewer than 4 unless your building is fully implemented and you get permission from your TL
sid - The paper work would be overwhelming if you took more than 4 in a half day and burn out would set in if you took more than 7 full day.
sharon - Guidelines just specify a minimum of 4 but don't give a maximum.
IdahoFirst - I am the only RR teacher for 87 first graders and pressure is to take 7 students
darthy/RR/AL - Yes, sharon, guidelines say no more than 8
IdahoFirst - This is the first year this school has received Title 1 services. They want a lot!
sid - I serviced 102 students last year. only one teacher in my building and never got out of the bottoms.
IdahoFirst - Principal would like to see 2nd grade services too
MKM - Mary K&1- One of our teachers took 7 last years and did o.k., but the other burned out with 6. I guess everyone's different.
Mary K&1 - RR isn't a second grade program
Mary K&1 - Thanks All for coming tonight, I hope to see you all next month
