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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net. Tonight's topic is Early Lessons and Developing Control of the Early Strategies.
tyylee - Good evening all. I am looking forward to tonights discussion. My children today couldn't do any of the things they were able to do last week. Maybe it was just rainy Monday blues at work!
Mary/PA - Are you into lesson now - anyone?
Glynda - We're on Lesson 26 or so.
Mary/PA - tyylee, what where they doing before that they did not do today?
Sadie - I'm in week 5, Mary.
Mary/PA - Glynda, when did you start school?
tyylee - I started lessons middle of last week. Two children still don't know very many letters so we are moving very slow.
Mary/PA - tyylee, do they know enough letters to start the Alphabet book?
Glynda - We went back July 24th, I think. It's been so long I've almost forgotten. Doing year-round school for the first time this year. I think we're going to like it. My husband and I are leaving Friday aft. for our 2 week fall break in Florida. I' definitely ready for it. Worried about some of my RR kids though.
tyylee - Last week two children seemed to be using the initial sounds to predict and check, today they just invented text according to the pictures without any concern for the visual.
suemay13 - has anyone some ideas on helping a child hold on to story pattern
Sadie - Glynda...I'm jealous. We went back to traditional this year after many years year-round
Mary/PA - I see, Glynda, We've only been in school for about 4 weeks now
Mary/PA - tyylee, was this on new text or familiar?
tyylee - I have started ABC books with the two low children but they know a letter one day and the next (like today) they don't seem to have a clue. We keep going over and over the same letters every day. The text reading problems were with the running record books.
Sadie - Glynda... that was the only thing not good about year-round... it was tough on our RR kids
Sadie - Do you plan to send a lot of books home for the kids to read? How long is your break?
tyylee - In early lessons how much time do you devote to letter work? Do you stay with the two minutes we later have for Make and Break or spend more time?
Glynda - 3 of my kids are on levels 3 and 4, but 2 are still not using first letter on tricky words.
Mary/PA - tyylee, I suppose that they don't give you any teaching opportunities when reading fam. text, so it all has to happen during the first reading, right?
Sadie - tyylee, if the students are really low in letter knowledge I'll spend more time. The books are so short anyway I can usually make the time.
suemay13 - I have been jumping and modeling the beginning sounds and showing how they helped me " I am not sure if it is a bunny or a rabblit. I use the first sound to help"
Mary/PA - I spend more time on letter work if needed and very little on M&B - they have to get those letters under control
Sadie - Tyylee... I've found if we don't build that knowledge early on it makes if very difficult for the child. The child has nothing to monitor with and writing is difficult as well.
Glynda - On first reading of new book I have them predict and locate words from pictures and we guess what it could be and then go to first letter to check and it works out okay, but then the next day, they still have trouble and don't use it on running record book.
Mary/PA - We have about 10 minutes for the writing portion of the lesson, so you want to be sure to have enough time to get a message down, there isn't enough to time to do both letter work and M&B - at least that's how it is for me
Sadie - Is anyone else finding that their RR kids are VERY passive? We are finding a pattern of kids who are passive and/or with language processing difficulties.?
Halifax - For letter knowledge help, have you tried lots of sorts with magnetic letters?
Sadie - If the letter knowledge is limited I don't do M&B. Can anyone remember what the guidebook says the child needs before beginning m&B?
Mary/PA - Sadie, being passive and having low language skills is very common in my school - for the lowest children
Nan - This year I have students who have no letter knowledge, not even that of there first names. They are able to sort and match letters but are not "knowing" any.
Mary/PA - Sadie, 20 different letters, e.g. Aa = 1 letter
Glynda - I just re-read guidebook M&B again this afternoon and it talked about early on getting all of the letters known somehow, sorting, etc. and building and taking apart known words and adding letters to known words to make new words.
tyylee - I haven't started Make and Break yet, I feel that they need to know the letters and sounds now and we can get to that later.
Mary/PA - tyylee, that is what you are supposed to do :o)
Glynda - I am excited that 3 of my 4 students know all of their letters. And then there's the third--still only knows 5 or so--not even the ones in his name.
suemay13 - I do some M&B with known words - very quickly having the students take a known word apart then put it back together
Mary/PA - Nan, that's really low! You mean they knew 0 letter on the OS?
tyylee - I just find that I need more time for Letter work and that takes away time from familiar reading or makes for a very short story. It is time to find the time!
Halifax - You can try the "game" I take you take. I name the letter and I get to keep it, if they name it they keep it. it seems to add alittle interest.
Mary/PA - suemay, when you say "take apart" do you mean take apart at the onset and rime or jumble and make
tyylee - Mary, I got my little cars out today and tomorrow will try driving around some of the letters we are working on. Any other ideas for letter work?
Glynda - I've played "my card--your card" much like that with high frequency words, but not with letters. Maybe I'll try that. Do you let them label it any way--sound, name or word, etc.?
suemay13 - jumble and make. It seems to help with the letter/word confusion that some come in with
Mary/PA - The rainbow writing of a letter gets the form and the language ofthe letter into the known - letter books are good for finding a word to link to
Debbie - What is my card--your card, pls. explain.
Ang - At what text level, do most of you start make and break?
Jill - I have been using my multisensory letters with my studnet who doesn't have all his letters. He matches the lower case to the upper case, especially of the look alikes.
Halifax - Glynda- If they are having lots of trouble, I'd say let them label them anyway they can at first
Mary/PA - Debbie, I think that Clay mentions this in the GB - High Frequency words are put on cards, the ones the child recognizes are his cards, the ones he doesn't are yours
Glynda - "My card, your card"--sight words written individually on an index card. He reads them quickly. If he gets them right quickly, he keeps the card. If not, I keep it. They get excited trying to beat me. Our TL said actual M&B starts at about Level 6.
Nan - Are the multisensory letters those with the bumps on them
Mary/PA - It's a little game for keeping track of known words.
Ang - That is what our TL said about M&B tonight too
Mary/PA - Ang, M&B starts when the child knows 20 letters, not counting the upper and lower case pairs, they count as one each
Halifax - What is rainbow writing?
Jill - The multisensory letters I have been using are the ones with "glitter" on them. You can use the ones with bumps - but I find that the black/silver color difference does make a difference.
tyylee - Do you start fluency word practice from the story as soon as you start lessons? For my two who are having letter knowledge problems I am finding that just spending that time working on a specific letter works better than practicing a whole word but I dont' know if I am doing the right thing.
Mary/PA - I think what they mean is that a child is not going to read with acceleration if they don't know the letters by level 5 or 6 - when a child knows the 20 letters needed for M&B he should also be at about level 5 or 6 - is that the understanding that you all have about this?
Glynda - I start working on a word as soon as he knows all of the letters in the word.
Ang - Mary, how long do you feel that Make and Break should work on known word to known word?
Mary/PA - Rainbow writing is when you trace over and over a letter or word using a different colored crayon each time
tyylee - They have never remembered a word the next day when I have tried it with these two children, even when they know all the letters in the word. They are having real problems with visual memory.
suemay13 - Mary- that is the understanding I have. I don't recall linking that task to a specific level (s) but that does make sense
Mary/PA - Ang, until the child understands the activity and sees how it works.
Jill - My two students who are ready for levels five and six seem to be ready for make and break too. I have a question about a child that is hard to accellerate. At first he came in "cocky" and full of himself. Now, he has shut down. He seems to control 1-1 if I insist, but that is the only time. I am getting the feeling he may not really get the "print" has meaning connection. What do I do?
tyylee - I have found that a child who only knows twenty letters seldom reads at a level 5 or 6.
Mary/PA - tyylee, is it visual memory or sequencing that they are having the trouble with?
Jill - He came in with an attitude that he was just better than all the other kids - probably a defense mechanism. There may be emotional disturbance as well - not sure yet.
Mary/PA - Jill, sounds like that child could have used another week of roaming. He is not feeling confident enough to risk making an error
Jill - I wonder, can I go back and lesson the "lesson" aspect of our work together?
tyylee - I think the problem is both visual memory and sequencing. If they do remember some of the letters (but not usually all of them) they are usually jumbled. I am pleased when they are able to get the first letter correct!
Mary/PA - Jill, I think that you are going to have to keep everything VERY easy for him for quite a while - he's going to be a very difficult to teach child
Mary/PA - But I guess you know that already, don't you!
Jill - O.K - I agree with you - but I also am feeling that age old "pressure to accellerate...."
suemay13 - Jill, I find that when a child is having that kind of difficulty I have to rethink my expectations and take the lead from the child
Mary/PA - Accelleration won't happen if he won't try
suemay13 - sometimes you have to back up to go forwaard
Jill - That's true. I have to remember that. Thanks!
Glynda - I have a question. I, too, feel the need to accelerate my kids. TL says level 3 by week 5, etc., but then Marie Clay says in the guidebook that kids need massive practice at one level before going to next. Comments?
Harper - are RR strategies only for young kids or for older kids who struggle at reading?
Mary/PA - Jill, I don't understand what you mean by lesson the lesson
Mary/PA - Harper, they are what all good readers do - even adults
Jill - Mary - I spelled the word wrong. I meant "lessen" the pressure - hold back on the expectations.
Mary/PA - Jill, I see, with that child, you are going to have to do that. If you don't, progress just won't happen
suemay13 - Mary, can you spend some time on the acceleration point
tyylee - Harper, I use my RR strategies with my second and third grade Title students all the time. They will work at any level but have to be modified for the children who are reading better. You might try the Guided Reading strategies and instruction found in the Fountal and Pinnel books.
Jill - I have another question. What about the chiold I have who is just taking off in Reading Recovery lessons, but is doing absolutely nothing in the classroom. Do I just have to be patient - Or can I intervene?
Mary/PA - Glynda, you spend as much time on a level as each child needs, some kids can skip levels - it all depends upon the child an how he handles the work at any given level
Mary/PA - Don't stay on a level if the child shows good evidence of being able to handle the work at that level
suemay13 - Jill I intervene. My TL suggested that we spend some time with the child in the classroom to connect what we do with what is expected - we know they can do it but they don't always make the connection
Mary/PA - But if a child is still needing a lot of prompts from you, he is not ready to move on
MNZ - Perhaps the massive practice Clay mentions is achieved in reading 5 books in one lesson, not reading all the books at a level.
Glynda - Do you all have any sort of plan for acceleration. Like if he reads hard books at a level at a certain percent so many times, do you move him up a level? This is my training year and I have qualms about moving him up sometimes-- is he really ready?
Mary/PA - Jill, about the child doing nothing in the classroom, do you have the opportunity to observe in the classroom to see what is happening or not happening?
MNZ - Yes, I intervene too. Observe in the clasroom etc. Tell the child that s/he has to do in the class all the same good things that s/he can do in RR.
Mary/PA - You have to find a way to build a bridge between what is done in RR lessons to what is expected in the classroom
tyylee - Sometimes when a child does not perform in the classroom to the level they read for me I use the Basal text stories that they have already read as part of our familiar reading and show them that their strategies are useful everywhere.
bonnie - I'm a second grade teacher with RR graduates in my class. I don't have training in RR and sometimes find it difficult to keep my readers on grade level. I'm using the 4 blocks model for the first time this year. It sounds like it goes along with RR.
Glynda - I use four blocks for my literacy groups.
MNZ - Also, recording the child's classroom book level on the weekly reading progress graph can help to start a dialogue with the teacher.
Mary/PA - Glynda, you have to be the judge about when a child is ready to move on. There is no set formula. You'll get a feel for this as you get more experience
Glynda - Our consultant literacy coach is not much on word walls--prefers a personal dictionary for the children but I still have a small word wall up. My kids are very low and just not ready for a dictionary yet, in my opinion.
Mary/PA - bonnie, yes, 4-Blocks and RR work very well together
MNZ - I agree with that, Mary. You do get a feel for how and when to up the ante.
Mary/PA - Glynda, which students are these?
Glynda - Glad to know it will come then as I get more experience. I can look forward to getting better at knowing when to accelerate. Thanks.
Glynda - Which students are you asking about? My literacy groups?
tyylee - When I am considering moving a child up I look at several books in the next level and see if I think he can be successful with them with what he knows now. Usually there are a few books in the next level up that are at least within the childs reach and maybe easier than some of the ones in the level he is reading.
PA - Glynda, how do you use 4 Blocks for Lit Group? How long are your lit group lessons?
suemay13 - I do that too tyylee
Glynda - I have 2 lit groups. I have 4 kids in each for 45 min. I use the components of four blocks and do what I can even though it is mostly for classrooms, I think.
MNZ - That's true, Tyylee. I jump about the levels a bit, depending on the child and the texts that I think will be appropriate. I look for M&S tracking over levels, not just at the level itself.
Mary/PA - We must remember that we are to be teaching to get the strategies in place and solid - when making the decision about moving to the next level, we need to look at what stratigies the child has under control and what others he needs to get under control to be able to ahndle the next level
suemay13 - Is anyone going to Sppringfield Mass in October?
tyylee - What are the "benchmark" levels that are suggested? the only one I can remember is the Level 3 by week five.
Mary/PA - Keep check back to the OS Summary - keep an eye on the child's low points - are these low or weak areas getting enough attention? Is he making good progress on these?
MNZ - Are the weak areas being dealt with in the context of continuous text? How does the reading 'sound'?
Mary/PA - tyylee, I think that we have to be careful about using those "bench marks" different people say different things. We are being told that the child should come out of Roaming at level 3 - see what I mean - when in doubt, check the GB - if Marie hasn't said anything about it, then go with what you think is best for each child
Dot - When can you expect the student to start using visual cues to a greater degree?
Mary/PA - Dot, searching V should be improving with each lesson
tyylee - Mary, thanks, I have never felt comfortable about using these
Mary/PA - The child should know that this is one of the things he has to control - he may not always know what a sound is, but he should know that he should be thinking about it
MNZ - BTW, B Watson told us a couple of weeks ago that LId with ML is not about naming letters. It is about very fast visual discrimination, finding letters for sounds or words. More for Visual perception. Look and sort before thay have a name for them.
Dot - I could use much help with the hard to accelerate and am reading the GB daily.
PAR - Shouldn't the child be using visual cues from the beginning when they are monitoring using known words?
Mary/PA - Letter names are for communication purposes - they don't usually help in reading an writing
Glynda - Me, too, I re-read again today on the way home from Memphis.
Mary/PA - PAR, you are right - locating known words is an early strategy
Glynda - The way we were taught to do make and break on the white magnetic board, the kids pull down the letters and name them before ever starting to sort, etc. We only put up letters he can name. So how can I just have him sort for visual differences??? Confused!
MNZ - Yes, that's right. They locate known words by using V. Awareness of where to look, what to look at and what to look for.
MNZ - Glynda, go to GB p24...What to do with ML
PAR - Glynda, have them sort for letters with a circle, letters with a stick, find 2 letters that are the same, different, etc
Dot - Teacher leaders make a big difference in the way they were trained and the advice and leadership they give.
Mary/PA - Glynda, the activity you mentioned is just one sorting activity, you can put letters on the board that he can't name, but can sort by appearence - straight lines, curved - look the same in a way - have the child talk about what he sees - how the letters are the same or different
suemay13 - It is confusing to come back from convention with some ideas that your TL leaders say are not to be used
MNZ - Introduce similarities, differences and variations, starting with letters the child knows. Start easy and make him get fast...really fast!
Mary/PA - suemay, you are going to find that there are many confusing things flying around out there - I found that it is always best to check the GB - that is what should be guiding us
MNZ - Yes, the GB really does have the answers...we just have to learn how to look at it *smile*
Mary/PA - Thank you all for coming and I hope to see you all again next time - pass the word and bring a friend - I always find it interesting to hear about how things are going across the globe
Mary/PA - Good night
MNZ - Good luck, Suemay. The first year is tough, but you'll learn so much, you'll wonder how you ever got by as a teacher before!
